Kali_Upasaka

If you can make it, please do visit the Kali Mandir, Laguna Beach , California. You will feel at home here in this temple founded by Maa Elizabeth Usha Harding.

https://www.kalimandir.org/Application/Homepage.aspx

Other than these Avataras you have Meherbaba who is considered an Avatara of Krishna. He was a Parsee and had nothing to do with Hinduism. But his Hindu followers called him an avatara of Krishna.

If you want to see the various facets of Hinduism and a glimpse into its past visit Banares, the Spiritual capital of the Hindus. It is also known as Varanasi.

Banares is Hinduism.

HKs are far better than the pseudo-Hindus who snipe at everyone. Malice toward one and all.

This is a reply to 'Kali Upasak'.

 

Also, did you not learn the philosophies after you were a bhakta already ? I would like to ask what made you go for the philosophies ?

 

Jai Sri Krshna

Yes. In fact I took time off and attended an academic institution to learn about Hinduism and other religions. Studied the Vedas. But I did not find the six Dharshanas or Philosophies of Hinduism interesting. I was more interested in the history of Hinduism.

The fact is that though the Bhakthi, Karma and Jnana margas are treated separately in the scriptures, in a person's life it is a combination of all the three. The Jnani has to perform Karmas and he may be a Bhaktha at heart.

But one of the Margas predominate. In my case it is Bhakthi. Following the Philosophies is Jnana Marga. Even in Bhakthi the Naradha Bhakthi Sutras define and classify Bhakthi. This again could lead to confusion.

Almost at the end of my life I have reached a conclusion that you do think about it at all. Just practice. Surrender and sing his praises. The practices could be Yogic, Mantrik, Vaidic or Tantrik or a combination.

I wrote all this because I feel that many of us spend way too much time in thinking about Bhakthi. Of course I may be wrong.

There are countless stories about Bhakthas. Especially about Krishna Bhaktas. These stories teach us what Love for Krishna is all about.

This is the story of Ghorakumbar, a devotee of Lord Panduranga. Gora lives by selling the clay pots. He is married and has one child. He spends most of his time singing about Lord Panduranga. He forgets everything when he is praying to the Lord. In one such instance he tramples upon his child and kills him. The wife is very sad about the loss of the child. Gora makes a promise he will never touch her and in case he touches her he will cut his hands. And one day he touches her and cuts his hands.

The story narrates how Panduranga tested his Bhakthi and rewarded him. His child is restored.

Many of the stories have not been translated into English.

Saranagathi is only about surrendering to the Lord. That is all. Loving humanity and neighbors, doing good deeds etc. just does not enter into the picture.

BTW that prayer that I had posted is part of a poem on Krishna written by a famous Bhaktha a couple of centuries back.

Whether you talk to Hare Krishnas or Ramakrishnas, in the end their reasoning process and epistemology can be reduced to one simple principle: They are right, and they do not need to provide any evidence to back it up.

Like you talk about Neo-Hindus without defining who is Hindu? You have been ridiculing all the Gurus/Acharyas except the Goudiya Vaishnavite ones.

According to you.

All Hindus except those who believe in Krishna Consciousness are Neo-Hindus.

All other ideas are rubbish and ridiculous.

Academic research is blind.

In fact I was amused by your attacking the ISCKON people of anti-Hinduism.

You are more anti-Hindu than any of them. Intolerant. Ridculing entire Hinduism. With Hindus like you we do not need any enemies.

Why should I try to convince a person who thinks the only correct interpretation of Hindu scriptures is that of the Goudiya Vaishanvite Acharyas and all others are rubbish. And who has started threads just to ridicule all Hindu thoughts.

You're right. The case is closed. You don't know what you are talking about, and are just blindly repeating the conclusions of what you think is "academic research."

 

Come back when you have reviewed the evidence, and then we will discuss.

I have much better things to do than waste my time in Vithanda Vada. You are entitled to your opinion.

Better yet, can you post your evidence for everything you have claimed?

I do not want to claim anything. These are based on academic research. Take or leave it. Subject closed.

Can you please post your evidence for #3?

 

Thanks

I do not want to enter this highly controversial subject. There is a lot of evidence for this. But the question is whether one wants to accept this. This topic is closed.

Garuda Purana verse by verse Hindi translation is available.

Love is never a goal. Goals are created with your intellect. Love resides in your heart. Love for GOD is just there in your heart. You do not need explanations for that.

If a person does not Love GOD I do not think you can create it artificially. It is like the arranged marriages in India where the husband and wife are expected to fall in Love after marriage. Does not always happen.

If you want to LOVE listen to your heart.

Krishna is within you. Learn to recognize that and surrender to him. It is as easy as falling off a log.

What sort of Bhakthi and what will it bring? It is for him to decide.

A translation of my daily prayer

Fear and cowardice have taken over me. Kill them. I surrender.

I am always afraid of the consequences of my actions. Let your actions prevail. I surrender.

I do not know what is good or what is bad. Establish what is good and drive away that which is bad. I surrender.

Krishna Hridhayakamala Vasa !!!

Bhakthi is Love. We aspire for selfless Love. Even when you are in Love with a girl, her external appearance etc. matters in the beginning. But once you have fallen in Love nothing matters. You can not attribute your Love to any particular factor. Because Love comes from the heart.

Love for GOD is even greater than this. Once you fall in Love with Krishna does it matter whether he is Vedic/Puranic, whether HE is the supreme deity and so on. No. Sir. It matters too hoots. You are in Love with Krishna. Period.

Namaste.

 

Madhava , you mean Madhavacharya ?? Oh, who says He is wrong !! Not at all !! His coming to the earthlings with Dvaita was one of the Lord's Leelas thru' him, to give the Dvaita perspective to those whom it suits. Well ?

 

Oh, who am i to say any of those great acharyas , devotees or scholars are wrong ?? I am not trying to debate, just saying "where is the contradiction ?" Its all HIS Leela you know , that Madan Mohan who plays the flute. He has fun with it.

 

Radhe Shyam !

I do not understand. If you are a Bhaktha of Krishna does the difference between Dvaita and advaita matter?

As far as I know there are only three Margas to GOD. Bhakthi, Karma and Jnana. If you have chosen Bhakthi why bother about any of these Philosophies?

None of the stories of Bhakthas that I have read said anywhere that they were bothered about any Philosophy.

Krishna is within us. He should be in our heart and not in our head.

I learnt about all these philosophies long after I became a Bhaktha.

The upanishads came in thousands of years later than the beginning of the Vedic period.

The practices which disappeared over a period of thousands of years

1. Burial of the Dead. The dead were buried in the early Vedic period. Even today there are Hindu communities where the dead are buried.

2. Authority for women to learn and recite the Vedas. Women were invested with Yagnopaveedha which is the only qualification required for learning Vedas.

3. The Varna system became by birth rather than by qualification.

It is impossible to say when these changes occurred and the changes in the society which made these changes necessary.

There are a number of activists who would like to undo the changes. An organization was started in Pune to train women as Purohits decades back. There are a number of women Purohits in Pune now. I am told that they are preferred over men.

About learning Vedas, a number of attempts have been made to bring all castes to Veda patashalas. Not all of them. At least some of them by Acharyas who would like to follow the example of Sage Goutama. ( of Sathyakama Jabala fame). But with very little success.

The reason is very simple. No income. The Brahmins did well under the British rule. But only those Brahmins who gave up the recitation of Vedas and took to English education. The Veda reciting Brahmin was treated with contempt by the British. They were poor and they continue to be poor.

In fact it is the poverty of the Brahmins which drove them to give up their traditional profession and take to English education.

Contact the nearest branch of the Arya Samaj. They will do the needful.

You are talking about Puranas/Itihasas which came thousands of years after the Rig Vedic period about which I am talking about. I have talked and written about this extensively in many seminars.

But this is all old hat.

Thank you for the information and advise.But you i think dont have faith in any of the learned jagadgurus or selfrealised saints.Certainly youre not accepting their authority.Besides vedas are for brahmins.I even after reading the vedas might not be able to decode it.

I have no doubt about Krishna. I accept the Acharya's views on Krishna. But I do not agree that that view is based on Vedas.

The brahmins were a class of people who were chosen to learn the Vedas and remember them so that they were not lost. These were the days when there was no writing and the written material were destroyed by white ants. It was not possible to inscribe the Vedas in Stone, as they were too voluminous.

These class of people were chosen because of their qualifications like correct pronunciation, excellent memory, application etc. They were not chosen by birth.

Later this became a profession by birth. But that is a corruption of the original system.

Now there are Veda Patashalas open to all the castes. But sadly, there are no takers. Not surprising as it does not pay. Some of the Maths are giving a regular stipend to Vedic Pandits to ensure that they continue to recite the Vedas. But it is only a pittance. A lifetime of assured poverty/ penury is not something which attracts many people.

UNESCO proclaimed the tradition of Vedic chant a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity on November 7, 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpieces_of_the_Oral_and_Intangible_Heritage_of_Humanity#2003_list

If you had studied the Vedas, you would know that Vishnu and Narayana are two of the important Gods. Krishna is an Avatara of Vishnu. But the Avatara concept came much later.

We have almost the entire Vedas in tact. Some of the Sakhas have disappeared and their texts. But the texts of different Sakhas are only a rearrangement and not an addition to the Vedas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhas

The listing of the Sakhas in the Wikipedia article is not complete. There are many more sakhas which are still existing. They came and recited Vedas at the last chain of Vedic conferences.

The question is not one of the interpretation by Vaishnavite Acharyas. But generally accepted facts.

Sant. Learn the Vedas. Not recite. That would take years. But the Sukthas at least and their meaning.

Excllent post Jahnava Nitai Das. But neither ISCON or the Vaishnavas the only people to face this problem. Almost all the Swamijis and religious teachers who came to the West from India propagated only one aspect of hinduism.

Paramahamsa Yogananda- Raja Yoga.

Swami Vivekananda - Vedanta

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - Meditation.

Srila Prabhupada - Krishna Consciousness.

Sri Ravishankar - Meditation

Srila Prabhupada was only following the trend.

The Swamijis and the teachers could only do that because as per the Sasthras a Guru can give instruction only in the path through which he has attained GOD.

So the westerners who came into contact with these Gurus came to know only one aspect of Hinduism.

This is enough for any person who is only seeking spiritual advancement. But not enough to understand Hinduism.

Hinduism is all the above and much more. Hinduism grew by absorption of ideas. Animism to Advaita. In a multi ethnic, multi lingual country like India Hinduism is the best solution.

Today a orthodox, Veda reciting Brahmin does not have a problem in understanding the villager who brings up a goat with love and affection to be sacrificed to some village God/Goddess. He does not know Vedas or Bhagavad gita. Has some vague ideas about Ramayana and Mahabharata. Yes.

He may not approve this, but accepts it.

My friend here may call it Neo-Hinduism. But this is the Hinduism that has grown over thousands of years. Acceptance of all belief systems and practices. Acceptance not approval.

That is why Hindus are not happy even with the term Sanathana Dharma because it excludes the Folk Hinduism which practiced by a sizable population.

The followers of Yoga, Vedanta, Sakthism and other different aspects of Hinduism also have the same problem as ISCKON. They find it difficult if not impossible to accept the various aspects of Hinduism including Shamanism. In fact you name any isms you find it in Hinduism.

Hindus in general do not want to convert any one. Most of them are not happy about conversions to Hinduism.

Hindus are happy that some of the aspects of Hinduism has found acceptance in the West.

The only things which makes us sad is anti-Hinduism. We never invaded any country, never forcibly converted any one.

Lot of discussions in Wikipedia. Long time back. You have a number of news paper reports of local papers of some meetings and lectures. Then you create web sites. Based on these you crate a wikipedia article and a religion.

They wanted this religion to be equated to Hinduism.

There was a census in India after the articles were written. Does this religion find a place in the census report?

There are other ways of creating a religion. Did you know that there is religion called Advaita-Vedanta separate from Hinduism?

http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Advaita_Vedanta/

A creation by a group of dedicated people. A Wikipedia religion. You visit Kanyakumari and enquire. No one has heard of them.

Sorry. I was responding to a post by Jahnava Nitai Das.

No Theology or Philosophy.

This problem is not peculiar to ISCKON. Some of my friends from U.S. also have this problem of identification. Though they are followers of Yoga, Vedanta and Sakthism they are not able to identify themselves as Hindus.

May we treat this as closed?

Again ISCKON does not represent entire Vaishnavism. It is only a very small part. The overwhelming majority of the Vaishnavites are not ISCKON. They consider themselves to be Hindus.

You know it. You want me to say it. O.K. Whether ISCKON and its followers are Hindu or not.

If everyone agreed on one policy then there would not be a problem. During my visits to Mayapur I did not get a feeling that ISCKON is non-Hindu. But then that was the last thing in my mind during the visit.