Gaurasundara

This was Prabhupada's favourite verse from Kulasekhara Alvar: LYRICS:<o:p></o:p> kṛṣṇa tvadīya-pada-pańkaja-pañjarāntam adyaiva me viśatu mānasa-rāja-haḿsaḥ prāṇa-prayāṇa-samaye kapha-vāta-pittaiḥ kaṇṭhāvarodhana-vidhau smaraṇaḿ kutas te<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> TRANSLATION<o:p></o:p> O Krsna! Please allow my mind to immediately yield to Your lotus flowerlike feet, just as the flamingo enters into the labyrinth of the lotus flowers' stems. When at the moment of my last breath my throat becomes constricted by the action of the bodily humors air, bile, and phlegm, how will I be able to remember You? So even if you are choking, no matter, just remember Krishna. Smaranam is also a way to the Lord. The Lord is not cruel that He will forget you in your time of need.

I wouldn't think it is necessarily heretical. If you're referring to the descriptions of the universe in the fifth canto (which is obviously at odds with modern science findings), I think that this can be properly reconciled because one of the SB verses shows how Sukadeva is explaining the universe to Pariksit in a way so that he can comprehend it as the "body of God". So if Pariksit is being urged to see the universe in a divine way that resembles God, it's natural why the Bhagavatam descriptions would be simultaneously true and conflicting with modern science.

Well the first quote in this thread is by Prabhupada. I guess he was just sentimentally whining according to you..

I think people are mixing up concepts here, but from my point of view I also disagree with the "Christian Vaishnava" concept because I don't think syncretism is possible. But I have no problem with offering my obeisances to the feet of Jesus, he was a great soul. Prabhupada is also referring to how we should respect Jesus as a preacher of God and I have no problem with that. This "Krishna is better than Christ" stuff is juvenile and pure fanaticism. It's the type of stuff that newbie overenthusiastic idealists say.

Perhaps he can post, but a filter of sorts can be created so that the posts of certain people are no longer visible to the reader who is filtering. Oh, I never noticed him before except in the fall/no-fall discussion recently. So this is regular behaviour? Hmm.. I understand and completely emphatise with what you say about creeper-killers though.

caitanya-caraNAMbhoje yasyAsti prItir acyutA vRndAtavIzayos tasya bhaktisyAc chata-janmani He who has developed unfailing love for the lotus feet of Caitanya has been devoted to the Lord and Mistress of Vrndavana forest for hundreds of births. (Sarvabhauma Sataka 17)

"What we're dealin' with here is a complete lack of respect for the law." - Sheriff Buford T. Justice (Smokey and the Bandit)

Nobody is denying that effulgence does not originate in Krishna, but that it is not perceptible to the residents of Goloka Vrindavan. If it is, I'd like to see scriptural examples of how His mother, father, friends, gopis, gopas etc. are (constantly) blinded by the bright effulgence that emanates from His body. The example from Sri Rupa Gosvami's Padyavali is an example of Krishna's "soft effulgence" that is a part of His beauty, and which is also called His bodily luster: "A perfect devotee of Krsna is overwhelmed by seeing the beauty of Krsna's bodily luster, His face and smile, and he bathes in the ocean of transcendental convulsions." (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter: The Beauty of Krsna) Mind you, I assume we are talking about aprakata-lila here, not prakata-lila. You won't find any scriptural examples to support this effulgence idea except for the philosophical verses from Brahma-samhita etc, which nobody is denying. The tattva is that Krishna emanates effulgence, but not in lila. Lila would be pretty hard otherwise; everyone would be constantly bumping into each other being blinded by Krishna's glaring effulgence and leading to some comedic situations. Life in Vrindavan is meant to be a barrel of laughs, but not that much. This is all besides the point though, because I still think the explanation of SB 4.28.54 to refer only to the souls who are supposedly in santa-rasa is a pretty huge extrapolation by any standards. It is also impossible since santa-rasa is not present in Goloka Vrindavan (but is there in Vaikuntha). But even if it were true, I'd like to see evidence that the spiritual sparks within Krishna's effulgence are in santa-rasa. Does anybody else have an opinion or understanding of this? Sorry for offending anyone, I see we're getting off-track from the "fall/no-fall" discussion lol. Anyway I gotta go.

Actually, Theist prabhu, an issue like this may be slightly comedic in places. You can't help wondering how a person may feel in their hearts when reading discussions like this, who may then go on to think: "I know I'm fallen, you don't have to rub it in."

According to Srimad Bhagavatam, Shiva is the son of Brahma. Please see SB 3.12.4-20 for further information ().

You got a friend. I think it's a perfectly natural thing to feel a kinship with Krishna. After all, we are His eternal fragmental parts (BG 15.7), He is our eternal Father (BG 14.4) and of course He is present in our hearts (BG 18.61). "We are always with Krishna". Yes I agree. There is definitely some benefit to discussing spiritual topics. Talks about Krishna are the life and soul of the Vaishnavas. The day that goes by without a thought or word about Krishna is a very bad day.

Except that there is no santa-rasa in Goloka Vrindavan. There is santa-rasa in Vaikuntha and dasya-rasa too, so it all depends which area of "the spiritual world" you are discussing. Apart from that, intereting Srila Prabhupada's quote to apply only to those jivas who are supposedly in santa-rasa is a pretty big extraction of an interpretation, probably wouldn't hold any water as far as logic is concerned. The quote clearly refers to "living entities" and doesn't make any statement of any particular types of living entities. The whole quote is a summation of the "fall" doctrine that can be found in Prabhupada's books, and which circulates everywhere including in this discussion. It's a tough quote, I agree, which is why I said I was interested in hearing responses to that quote in Prabhupada's books. There is no santa-rasa in Vrindavan, so this does not apply. I'm not sure. If Krishna had a bright blaring effulgence in His "hometown" that nobody would be able to see Him, least of all His parents, cowherd friends, gopis, etc. I'm not sure about this either, I'd love to hear scriptural quotes to back this up. This would work well for one who believes that jivas do fall from the spiritual world. From the content of your previous posts I guess you are not a fan of this idea, so I am surprised with this example. The "impregnation" of the living entitites into the mahat-tattva is the "recycling" of those jivas who did not attain liberation in the previous kalpa. If the kalpa ends and a sizeable number of jivas have not attained liberation, they are merged into the body of Maha-Vishnu in a sleeping and dormant condition, waiting for the next cycle of creation to begin. When it does, these jivas are "impregnated" back into the new creation and act according to their inclinations. They were fallen to begin with and they will remain "fallen" until they get out of the vicious circle. I suppose it's possible to describe this "sleeping within Maha-Vishnu" as "being with Krishna". Maybe that's where the whole controversy lies. The Vedanta also states that karma is beginningless, which is a very important assertion and is they key to this whole issue. Sorry to all for going off-track with the santa-rasa stuff but I am still interested to hear responses/explanations to SB 4.28.54, it does seem an unending controversy with both sides of the discussion being present in Srila Prabhupada's books. But as I say it is ultimately unimportant to me (subjective) as I would much rather concentrate on my own sadhana to reach Krishna, but siddhanta (objective) is important too for it's own reasons. Sorry if I offended anybody.

'sei ta parANa-nAtha pAinu yAhA lAgi' madana-dahane jhuri' genu' ei dhuyA uccaiH-svare gAya dAmodara Anande madhura nRtya karena Izvara 'I have gained the Lord of My life, for whom I was being burned by Madana and was withering away.' As this chorus was sung loudly by Svarupa Damodara, the Lord blissfully danced beautifully. (Caitanya CaritAmRta 2.13)

What about this? (SB 4.28.54) How does this jive with the explanations that "books are higher than letters/conversations"? I've heard a lot of back-and-forth but I'm always interested in reactions and explanations to Prabhupada's purport to SB as quoted above. This is in his books. I personally don't care anyway. I accept the orthodox Vedantic position that jivas never fall but it is Crow-and-tal-fruit logic: Whether I fell or not, the fact is I'm nowhere so I'm working to get to Krishna.

I liked this part.

I love this little extract from Caitanya-bhagavata that I spotted the other day. The scene is set like so: A sannyasi arrived at the house of Advaita Prabhu and, after the normal niceties, desired to ask Advaita Acharya a question. "How is Keshava Bharati related to Chaitanya?" Advaita was in a quandary, for how could he answer? The Lord has no superior, but Chaitanya had accepted Sri Keshava Bharati as master. Contemplating on both the worldly and spiritual aspects of the question, Advaita replied, "Keshava Bharati is Chaitanya's guru. But you already knew this so why did you ask?" At that moment, Advaita's young son Achyutananda came running into the house after play and had heard the words of his esteemed father. In mock anger he chastised Advaita for describing Chaitanya as an ordinary mortal having a guru, and corrected his "misconception". What follows are the beautiful words of Sri Achyutananda as he describes Mahaprabhu as the Supreme Lord and identifies Him as Maha-Vishnu, the Creator: ananta brahmāṇḍa sei caitanya-icchāya saba caitanyera loma-kūpete miśāya "By the will of Chaitanya, innumerable universes issue forth from the hair-pores of His body". jala-krīḍā-parāyaṇa caitanya-gosāñi viharena ātma-krīḍa-āra dui nāi "It is Caitanya Gosai who enjoys His own pastimes in the [Great Ocean] with no other." yata dekha mahāmuni - mahā abhimāna uddeśa nā thāke kāro, kothā kāra nāma "It has been observed that the great sages who were very proud of themselves did not know their situation or their names." punaḥ sei caitanyera acintya-icchāya nābhi-padma haite brahmā hayena līlāya haiyāo nā thāke dekhite kichu śakti aveśeṣe karena ekānta-bhāve bhakti "By the inconceivable will of Caitanya, Brahma appears from the lotus flower that sprouts from His navel. Yet after his appearance he has no power to see anything until he worships the Lord with one-pointed devotion." tabe bhakti-vaśe tuṣṭa haiyā tāhāne tattva-upadeśa prabhu kahena āpane "Observing his devotion and being pleased thereof, Prabhu [Caitanya] imparts the tattva of everything unto him." tabe sei brahmā prabhu-ājñā kari' sire sṛṣṭi kari' sei jñāna kahena sabāre "Obeying the will of Prabhu, Brahma begins to create. He then imparted that knowledge unto others." sei jñāna sanakādi pāi' brahmā haite pracāra karena tabe kṛpāya jagate "The four Kumaras headed by Sanaka received that knowledge from Brahma, and mercifully preached it throughout the creation." (CB 3.4.162-169) Achyutananda went on to say a few more things in chastisement. After hearing thus, Advaita Acharya was so impressed that he embraced his son and shed tears of joy, as did the sannyasi who heard the boy's glorification of Mahaprabhu and similarly wept joyfully. May we all be blessed with the boon of joyful tears after hearing such beautiful narrations.

caitanyera bhakta-vAtsalya - akathya-kathana Caitanya's parental love for His devotees cannot be described with words. (Caitanya CaritAmRta 2.7)

'duHkha-madhya kona duHka haya gurutara?' 'kRSNa-bhakta-viraha vinA duHkha nAhi dekhi para' "Mahaprabhu asked: 'Of all miseries, which misery is the most painful?' Ramananda Raya replied: 'Besides the separation from Krishna's devotee, I know of no other misery.'" (Caitanya Caritamrita 2.8.248) kaunteya pratijAnIhi na me bhaktaH praNazyati "O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes!" (Bhagavad Gita 9.31)

bAhu tuli' hari bali' prema-dRSTye cAya kariyA kalmaSa-nAza premete bhAsAya With His arms raised and chanting of 'Hari', He looks lovingly everywhere, causing the destruction of sins and a flood of prema. (Caitanya CaritAmRta 1.3)

Whoever he is, this doesn't give any information about him but is just his own discussion group with only 4 members. Unfortunately I didn't feel like reading any of the posts because I found the headlines extremely offensive: "Even the cowherd boys fall down", "even the leaves fall down", etc. What I briefly read in other threads from him have even more offensive titles such as "Narada Muni fell down" and so on. I find it ludicrous that anyone can give a "final proof" about an event that supposedly occurred so far back in beginningless time (see the irony?) that anyone can even speak about it. I think this is an extremely bad trend to make such haughty statements about super-eminent personalities like Devarsi Narada Muni and Krishna's cowherd friends, that too from a sannyasi apparently. So while I respectfully disagree with him, I make my obeisances from a distance. But just by coincidence, I was reading Bhagavad-Gita last night and I came across this interesting quote from BG 13.20: The general point is that whether we fell from Vaikuntha or not, we can never know for sure. It is a waste of time to consider these things when our time could be better spent engaging our tongues in glorious Hari-kirtan and associating with Vaishnavas.

For years I have been telling anyone who'll listen about the glories of Mahaprabhu's beautiful Golden Lotus Feet. "Mahaprabhu's lotus feet are the most beautiful golden colous, softer than a rose. His toenails are so shiny, you can see your face in them," that sort of thing. And guess what! I just found out it's confirmed by scripture! How nice it is to get your inclinations confirmed by shastra.

Gaura-lila is the most beautiful thing in the world. The life of the Vaishnavas is Krishna-katha, and all sectarian differences are dissolved by the unifying principle of sravanam-kirtanam. Please feel free to elaborate on this pastime, I have opened this thread so everyone can post little jewels from Gaura-lila and "Gaura-centric" scriptures.

Wow, this is so shocking, saddening and surprising all at once. It was only yesterday that I was reading some of his recent posts here. This is very unfortunate and he will be missed. I also have that BTG issue.

Bravo!

I was going through CB Madhya-khanda today, the chapter describing Sri Gaurahari's return to Navadvipa from Gaya after receiving diksha from Sri Ishvara Puripada. As Mahaprabhu recounts the basic details of His trip to Mother Sachi and the other Vaishnavas, his joyful memories cause him to faint and revive in a constant cycle, body horripilating and tears streaming from His holy eyes at the very mention of Gaya as "pada-padma-tirtha", and ecstatically crying "Where is Krishna?" to the astonishment and amazement of the residents of Navadvipa. Finding Himself unable to speak, Prabhu directed only a few of His associates (Sriman Pandit, Sadashiva Brahmachari and Murari Pandit) to meet the next morning at Shuklambhara Brahmachari's house where He promised to give fuller details. As that most auspicious day dawned, Sriman Pandita joyfully came to Srivasa Thakura's beauteous garden to pick flowers for offering to Mahaprabhu, and revealed the news of his impending meeting with the Lord to Srivasa, Gadadhara, Gopinath and Ramai, who were also picking flowers for their morning worship. After relating the happenings of the previous day to them in detail, Sriman Pandit urged them that there was every reason to believe him and his description was greeted with the triumphant and joyful chanting of Harinam from his listeners. This is the magic mantra!!!!! "GotraM nu vardhatAm iti" - the most holy words spoken by Bhakta-avatara Srivasa Pandit in the Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, the magic words in seed form that will bestow great blessings upon the world!! How wonderful!!! The most wonderful and benevolent mission of Mahaprabhu is about to start, and billions of jivas will be drawn to His fold!! Indeed so: