Bhaktavasya
-
Content Count
386 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Bhaktavasya
-
-
Jayradhe; last night I posted a concilatory (make-ing up after 'quarelling) post to you, which was deleted.
Jndas; I don't get it. My post was in praise of 'the good times' of the early Iskcon days, with only a passing comment of the 'stuff' that ALMOST ruined the movement. Can't you at least give a reason why my post was deleted?
-
Originally posted by JRdd:
Yes, I remember exactly the same thing, and I also put the date around the mid-seventies, when this was circulated around all the temples. I reemmber that Srila Prabhupada said he was a politician (and we know he was aide to a king, if I am not mistaken on this point). I wonder if anyone can come up with source material? In the early days (maybe not so much as in the mid-seventies, but earlier than that) I remember that the movement was small enough that we had an almost instant grapevine, all the time. In those days, most devotees even knew of most of the other devotees in the movement, by name, and what they were known for, or some pastime about them, even if they had never met. For example, I was surprised to discover that little me was known for my cooking among some temples I'd never been to.
My point is, a lot of what Srila Prabhupada said may not be recorded, or provable now, but I doubt whether many men, in the positions to share what Srila Prabhupada told them, would be so inclined to make this up, since it was so popular among many men, as Bhaktavasya prabhu said, to think contrarily to this statement. I remember as early as 1976, though, getting my first glimmer of this type of attitude and prejudice, which somehow was never taken to that extent in the earlier days. We were as a happy family unit of brothers and sisters, some of us married, some not. Around the time I saw this starting, I noticed how a lot of negativity and divisiveness was spreading its evil tentacles throughout the movement. I have always always considered this one of the major causes of the breakdown of our society (and of course this phenomenon is backed by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita). And it is no better than male-bashing is. It's a terrible attitude for anyone calling himself a devotee to have, and will surely have a profound affect on his spiritual growth.
Whether Srila Prabhupada said it or not, the fact is that Canakya Pandit was not a devotee.
Another, much more important fact is, regardless of what Srila Prabhupada said, he never ever intended any of his words to be used as an excuse for men bringing their childhood hangups to the movement and using them against women, or to boost their egos, which is most unconducive to spiritual life.
I know theist is joking, and that doesn't bother me. But I am surprised and dismayed at Ram, who until now I considered to be very intelligent. Well, there are differnt types of intelligence, as we can see!
I have to go now. There is a tiny round red bug circumambulating on my keyboard, no kidding, and I want to watch it for a while. the other day, a strange flying beetle thing that looked like an iridescent black feather chased me, on the ground, all over the yard. I would move two feet this way, he would follow. I would move three feet another way, there he would come. I made him walk in a complete circle by moving around. I was awestruck by the intelligence of this creature. Just shows brain mass proves nuttin'.
JR
Jayaradhe; vancha kalpa and all that, okay? Yes, the good old days that really were. The c-r-a-p that pulled It all down. Or so it seemed.
I submitted my condensed story for a contest for a local/international (CHUM of Much and Much More Music, BRAVO, the Originals, etc) television station and film company, and we applicants were supposed to hear by the end of May which stories would be selected for film production. When I phoned on May 31st the girl on the phone said they were still deciding. I believe in truth that Krishna is the One controllng the scene when it's his story that is at stake. My story is part of it, but it can't be told unless and until the ones who were there, did that, can have their say.
Speaking of someone with a lot to say, how is the (retired?)High Priestess? We quarelled, e-mail addresses were deleted, give my vancha kalpas to her too.
[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 06-16-2002).]
-
Another note on intelligence. I can't remember whether it was in a purport or an actual verse, but Prabhupad defined intelligence as the ability to distinguish between spirit and matter. So anyone who identifies with the body as the self would be less intelligent.
At a philosopy cafe that I go to the topic two weeks ago was intelligence. The discussion covered the different types of intelligence. For example emotional intelligence and what is called common sense is a kind of intelligence that has been overlooked by even great philosophers since the time of Plato, and just recently has been figured into the intelligence quota.
I'm reminded of the story of the boatman, the scientist, the movie star and the rich man. It was re-enacted as a play in some temples. As the story goes, the scientist, movie star and rich man hired a boat man to ferry them across the river. The passengers were bragging about their worldy accomplishments, always finishing thier self-congratulatory comments with "Did you know that, boatman?" and "have you ever done that, boatman?" Always the boatman would reply "No", he didn't know, never experienced. The boat springs a leak and everyone but the boatman panics. Turns out the boatman was the only one who knew how to swim!
-
Originally posted by Bhaktavasya:
I never had access Srila Prabhupad's corresponence to various disciples, and it just may have been during a personal darshan in India at the time. I do remember that it was at the height of the 'women are maya' fever than was dominating most classes and it must have had some validity because it was begudging accepted when the famous dismissal of Canyaka as a 'bonefide source' was issued. Maybe Jaya Radhe had some recollection of it, whether it was in a letter or 'latest news' after a Mayapur festival. The date was approximately 1978.
Sorry, the date would have had to to have bben before November of 1977. The reason the date 1978 stuck out in my mind is that I was in a temple in South Africa at the time when the Canyaka quotes being refuted most vigorously by some grhastas. As I said previously Canyaka's words as good as scripture only subsided for a while. There are still some 'hangers-on-ers' who left Iskcon years ago yet still like to use those quotes as a way to dismiss and insult women. As could be expected, it ALWAYS turns people of who are new to Krishna Conscious philosophy, especially women.
-
Originally posted by Krsnacandra dasa:
Fascinating. Do you know of the date and place, where and when Srila Prabhupad uttered this quotation? Not that I believe your words to be untrue, I just want to be 108% sure. I never particularly cared for the quotations of Chankaya Pandit, but then again, maybe that was because I never cared for some of those who chose to cite his quotations.
Instead, I'd rather rely on our actual Gaudiya Guru Parampara for reliable information.Now all we have to do is reconcile our understanding of the Manu Samhita ... Heraculean task right there for many people.
[This message has been edited by Krsnacandra dasa (edited 06-16-2002).]
I never had access Srila Prabhupad's corresponence to various disciples, and it just may have been during a personal darshan in India at the time. I do remember that it was at the height of the 'women are maya' fever than was dominating most classes and it must have had some validity because it was begudging accepted when the famous dismissal of Canyaka as a 'bonefide source' was issued. Maybe Jaya Radhe had some recollection of it, whether it was in a letter or 'latest news' after a Mayapur festival. The date was approximately 1978.
-
Originally posted by leyh:
"According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy."
There was a time during the mid-70's in Iskcon when the men (generally) were quoting that Canakya Pandit saying until a woman was so disturbed by it she asked Srila Prabhupad about it and he said that Canakya wasn't a devotee. That sort of shut the guys up..for a while.
-
Ram; Your reply connects nicely with the 'Vaisnava disputes' thread. Although you are both correct, Sha is 'more correct' because a simple mantra prayer to Radha was the request. Who here could imagine Radha without Krishna, even if She sometimes SEEMS to be alone!
[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-11-2002).]
-
This is the best web-site for explaining the meaning of kriya yoga.
-
I haven't got scriptural reference, but I believe it is in Nectar of Devotion that says in madhurya rasa all other rasas are contained. In other words, when a devotee is in love with Krishna as lover and beloved there are emotions of wanting to protect the Lord, that Krishna is one's best friend, and eternal servitude. True?
-
Parmamahamsa Yogananda wrote a translation and commentary on Bhagavad Gita which he finished in 1932. He died in 1952 and the work was published in 1995 as 'God Talks with Arjuna The Bhagavad Gita Royal Science of God-realization by the Self -Realization Fellowship, which was originally founded in 1920.
He quotes extensively from the teaching of Jesus in his purports and accepts him as a divine avatar. He wrote several other books besides the well-know 'Autobiography of a Yogi and his lectures and talks have been published under such titles as 'Man's Eternal Quest, The Divine Romance, Wine of the Mystic (The Rubaiyat of Omar Kayyam-A spiritual interpretation), Whispers from Eternity, The Science of Religion, How You Can Talk With God, Metaphysical Meditations ( a compilation of over 300 mediations and prayers). Definetly not an impersonalist and (in my opinion) in the Bhakti line.
-
Darn, the thread was closed just when I wanted to ask Raga a very important question;
What if my external body is female and my guru has revealed my form as a gopa? Is there a form I can fill out to order my desired dress and turban decorations?
Sorry, kind moderator. Please refrain from discipling me as one should not repress her nature, which in my case is fun-loving.
***********************
-
BVI; what ARE your views on sex in the
spiritual world?
[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 05-26-2002).]
-
Twenty years ago (give or take a year) Siddhaswarupananda & the Hari Bol society of devotees seemed more cutting edge, ahead of the times, the recorded album where Siddha sang songs of Radha's love for Krishna. He was a rebel, a man of mystery, and now this..?
-
A devotee in Gaura lila, Sivananda Sena, had so much affection for a dog that he refused to go back to Godhead unless the dog went with him. According to the story, (and my memory) Sri Chaitanya granted the benediction/assurance that the dog could go back to the spiritual world with Sivananda.
-
Originally posted by sha:
SRI RADHA--THE DIVINE MYSTERY
By
SRI SWAMI KRISHNANANDA
http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/religions/radha.htm
Sri Radhashtami is a joyous occasion observed throughout the country, especially in the North, bringing to one's hallowed memory the advent of Radha, a name familiar to every religious historian and devotee.
But, there is nothing in religious history which is so little understood as the particular spiritual significance which is the theme of the observance of this sacred day, the eighth day in this bright half of the month of Bhadrapada(August-September), the birthday of Radha.
The word 'Radhakrishna' is a reputed compound name, and devotees generally run into mystical contemplation and even fly into ecstasies in their moods in an attempt to understand the relationship between Sri Krishna and Radha. But, as is the case with almost everything in the world, this relationship which is deeply spiritual and mystical, is hard for the human mind to understand, because God, and everything that is connected with God, cannot become an object of human understanding. The human mind is not expected to understand God, and to 'understand' Him would be a blasphemy on the part of the human reason. As a straw would try to carry fire on its body, the intellect of man tries to apprehend the divine mysteries in creation.
Devotees of Sri Krishna relate a lot about Radha, the Divine Mystery. I can call her only a Divine Mystery and there is no other designation suitable. Even today, it is a mystery, and it has remained ever a mystery, because God's relation to the world, His relation to devotees, His relation to human beings, His relation to anything, is a Divine Mystery in itself.
But the specific significance that is attached to the relationship between Sri Krishna and Radha is the supernal love that operates in this mysterious relation between God and the world.
The world is ruled by love, which is the quintessence of God. The basic stuff of God's Being may be said to be Love, Joy, Delight, Bliss, Ananda. But man, being what he is, can interpret this joy or delight, this satisfaction or love, this affection or pull, only in terms of his experiences. There are only men and women in this human world, and we do not see a third thing. Therefore, when men and women contemplate the mystery of God, they cannot think in any other way, except in terms of men and women.
This is a travesty of religious mystery and a demonstration of the human incapacity to equal the requirement on the part of man by the Law of God. Read any Purana or any Epic, still you will never be able to understand the relation between Krishna and Radha. On the one hand, it has been a theme for a divine upsurge and ecstasy of devotion in the case of pure minds and devotees, while, on the other hand, it has become a theme for sarcastic interpretations of the mysterious relation between the Supreme Male we call God, and the Supreme Female we name Shakti.
Two extremes meet in the concept of God's Glory, and in the mediocre approaches of devotees on the path of divine love, these extremes are not felt.
Most of us, may we say all of us, are mediocre followers of the path of God. The extreme steps are not intended for fragile minds, weak bodies, impure emotions and tarnished intellects or prejudiced reasons. The vehicle that can contain the divine mystery has to have the capacity to bear the fire which is God's Glory. Many times it is said that the embrace of God is an embrace of fire, and no man has lived as man after having seen and embraced God. These are some of the statements we hear from the adepts on the path.
The Radhakrishna mystery is a secret, even as God Himself is a secret. What can be a greater secret than God's Existence!
You cannot know where God is, or what God is doing, or why God has created the world. You cannot say what His relation is to us, or, our relation is to Him. You cannot say anything about Him, and the less said the better.
Thus it is that when we read the Srimad Bhagavata Purana, the Brahma-vaivarta Purana and certain other texts where such extreme forms of divine relation are expounded, we retrace our steps and turn back dumbfounded:
"Yato vacho nivartante aprapya manasa saha"--
Speech and mind turn back from that which they are not supposed to express or understand or think. The reason behind this difficulty is that we are, as human beings, not prepared to shed the human way of thinking. We have a reservation always, secretly maintained in our own minds, a secret which we wish to hide even from God's eyes. There is a fear in the human individual, a fear, on the one hand, of losing the meaning that one attaches to the laws operating in human society and, on the other hand, the fear of losing oneself in what devotees call Love of God.
The term 'Love of God' may mean either love that a devotee evinces in regard to God, or the love that God has for a devotee. Either way, we can take this term, 'Love of God'. There is no half-hearted and mediocre attitude in respect of God.
Either it is a whole-souled dedication or it is a nothing. There is no partiteness or reserved attitude towards God. It is a completion and a fulfilment which requires on our side also a
fulfilled and a complete approach. But we are, as I told you, always men and we can think only as men. We are women, and we can think only as women. These prejudices do not leave us and they cannot leave us. Apart from the idea of male and female, there are other shackles by which we are bound to this earth, all of which are, as it were, steel chains with which we are bound to our own personalities and prejudices, which have to melt into a liquefied form before God, the all-encompassing, super-legalistic Existence, super-relational Being.
The very thought of it will melt the human individual. This melting of the human individuality is called Love of God.
Even in ordinary intense forms of worldly love, our individuality tends towards a melting, though it does not actually melt. We rarely experience intense love in our lives. Often we are like broken glass pieces with no worth or value in us.
We are parading empty shells with no substance in ourselves. This is human life today. But this will not work before the realities of life. We can never entertain true affection and true love in regard to anything in this world, because we are mostly hypocrites. We are never true to ourselves and, therefore, we can never be true to others.
This predicament is a tremendous danger before man's future. And this illness has come upon man right from the very beginning of his birth itself, and attaches itself to him wherever he goes in every incarnation.
Perhaps this is the original sin that people speak of in theological circles. Unless we shed this completely and stand naked before the glory and fire of God as pure Spirit and not as men and women, we cannot understand, appreciate and feel what divine love is. This is why we cannot understand the relationship between Radha and Krishna, in the Radhakrishna compound.
We go on reading about it but understand nothing. The attempt on the part of the soul to understand this mystery, is an attempt to dissolve one's personality, and no one is ever prepared for it.
Such a sacrifice we cannot do. We have always a reservation, as I mentioned to you, and we approach God with a tremendous fear and a hidden purpose behind our own personal existence. We are not supposed to understand this mystery of Radha-Krishna. We are unfit. Man today is unfit for this sacrifice.
The other aspect of this mystery is what is called the Rasalila, very magnificently, gloriously and touchingly described in the Rasa-Panchadhyayi of the Srimad Bhagavata, odious to impure minds but glorious to pure minds.
Man himself is an odious existence. Nothing can be worse than his own individuality. He carries this impurity before God and refuses to understand superhuman operations in this divine world, the Kingdom of God which is this very earth.
I do not know whether you are able to make any sense out of what I am saying, because it is difficult to express in language what is not supposed to be expressed.
My humble obeisance to the Almighty Lord whose mystery is this creation. Our blessedness and well-being consist in realising that we cannot understand Him and in expecting His divine grace for our uplift.
A wonderful post, Sha. It reminds me of a passage in the Chaitanya Charitamrita that describes the Lord's beauty and qualities as always increasing, that even Krishna himself cannot fathom the depth and magnitude of his own glories as they are without limit.
-
Originally posted by ram:
Bhaktavasya, please allow me to admonish you for speaking sarcastically about a knowledgeable devotee like Raga in this way. Such people are rare gems in this world.
He has every right to think what he wants to say / rethink his position. Whether he changes his stand or justifies it based on sastras, it can only add glory to him. All glories to the assembled vaishnavas. Hare Krishna.
No sarcasm implied. I really do admire Raga's patience.
-
Originally posted by ram:
Raga, as I said in my post you made a perfect start. If you see the first 6 - 7 posts, it flows smoothly. But you lost me when you failed to explain how "niyamas affect the soul" by using pramanas. And later by not defining niyamas.
Niyamas for the soul is not a traditional concept. When you introduce these concepts, it has to be substantiated based on the sastras. I deferred discussion on your "examples to prove the point" because I first wanted to know if there is a sastric basis for your interpretation.
If you do, we should definitely proceed with the discussion. Hari bol.
Ram; if this thread was a theatre play, the audience would be laughing out loud right now. Raga has shown *infinite* patience in this scene.
-
Originally posted by Sarasvati:
There was an article in Chakra some time back about the times when Srila Prabhupada was physically present, versus now. I was just wondering what did you all think about the points?
I personally think that the majority of the points were very valid, and it was nice that they were brought up. Some of them were sad though. Pratyatosha Prabhu was wondering why nowadays most of the kids in Iskcon go to regular schools when in Prabhupada's time they all went to gurukulas (not even Iskcon day-schools). Well, there is definitely a sad reason for this change in parents' attitudes. And correct me if I'm wrong (I might be wrong, I know, and I apologize if I am), but didn't Pratyatosh Prabhu help the ex-gurukulis with their law-suit.
Yes, Pratyatosh was the one who originally contacted the lawyers involved in the current gurukula lawsuit, and connected them with the former students, now plantiffs. I also am perplexed by Pratyatosha's pro-gurukula stance now, as (and I may also be mistaken here)I seem to recall that his own children or at least his son was abused and is part of the lawsuit.
-
Originally posted by suryaz:
A sannyasi disciple of Narayan Maharaja told me that on a higher level Janava devi is an incarnation of Nityananda. And also Nityananda is also plays the part of a gopi (I cannot remember which gopi) I know in CC Ramananda Raya is part Arjuna and also part Lalita, and Mahaprabhu is Radha and Krsna. Does anybody know any more of the Nityananda expressions.
To say that Janava devi is the very self of Nityananda is not the same as being the direct incarnation. Nityananda is Balarama in Krishna lila and Janava is his eternal consort, Revati. Maybe someone else has information to the contrary, but I have never heard of Nityananda/Balarama appearing as a gopi. Lord Balarama once performed the rasa dance to pacify the gopis in Krishna's absence and his relationship, of course, with Krishna is as his brother and direct expansion.
-
me too. Thankyou
-
Thankyou, Raga. "Whose heart will not break upon hearing of these pastimes?"
Jaya Mother Janava! Jaya Revati-Balarama!
-
Originally posted by raga:Well here it is; the definition of niyama
AND yama; things to not be done and things
to be done. "Everybody plays the fool", as
the song goes. I skimmed through the thread
too quickly and missed what I was searching
for. A lesson on the folly of 'rushing'
back to Godhead.
[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-20-2002).]
-
Ram; from your understanding of the books
you mentioned in the beginning thread, could
you kindly give a brief definition of
the word 'niyamas'. A person who has studied
Bhagavad Gita does not have to have a copy
with her/him to be able to define (for example)
mantra as mind-releasing. Mantra is so much more..
the Name incarnating on our tongues. Still,
the basic definition is essential in putting
the discussion into perspective. Everytime
the word 'niyama' comes up, there's a big
questions mark, at least in my mind' and
probably in the minds of many others.
Definition please!
I
[This message has been edited by Bhaktavasya (edited 05-18-2002).]
-
Originally posted by sha:
Dear Bhaktavasyadd,
Have all 'initiated' desciples truly felt that way 30 yrs ago? Or is it a recent discovery from the teachings of saints?
Which 'gopi' is 'officially' married to Krishna in a "public ceremony"?
Marriage is an institution designed for the mundane society.
In my humble opinion, no such 'ritual formality' is necessary for the seeking spirit soul. Our bond with Him is eternal and do not require formalities.<font color="fefefe">
[This message has been edited by sha (edited 05-09-2002).]
I can't say what other initiated disciples felt like 30 years ago because I'm not Paramatma. I never thought of myself as a gopi or a queen of Dwarka; if anything I pined to be a cowherd boy when I 'got back to Godhead'. Marriage of the soul to God meant to me spiritual union, bhakti yoga. Very simple way of thinking, not complex at all.
An Apparent Contradiction
in Spiritual Discussions
Posted · Report reply
Oops. My apologies to Jndas. From Krishna comes all knowledge, forgetfullness and it seems temporairy blindness too. (Sure, blame it on Krishna now). I must've been attached to my posting, now I am duly humbled.