alwayslearning

Hello all, I would like to hear the general Vaisnava perspective regarding suffering, with scriptural references, if possible. I'd like to know the opinions of Vaisnavas who are a part of ISKCON or Gaudiya Math as well as those outside of it. 1. Does suffering happen? Or is it an illusion? What is the explanation for the experience of the feeling or sensation of suffering amongst sentient beings in existence? 2. Would Krishna allow us to suffer in order for us to not be aversed to Him (so that we would cease suffering and live in Reality (in love for Him or in not-aversion, surrender to Him)), even if it is not truly Reality to suffer, would He allow us to sense suffering? 3. With Krishna's omnipotence, can He create an indestructible object? Omnipotence would require that ability, yet not allow for any object to be outside of His ability to destroy. Is omnipotence, therefore, even a possibility?

thanks bhaktajan, i understand what you're saying perfectly. you see, before i found Krsna i had a long (years and years) background involving radical concepts of feminism, anarchism, etc. despite the opinions of some, these are actually very developed concepts by people like chomsky, bell hooks, McDavid, etc etc etc. emersing myself in these ideas helped me develop emotionally and psychologically, but not, obviously, spiritually. i'm not longer concerned with changing the world like i was before, but i have learned to not objectify women, to not crave for sex like an animal, to control my baser insticts... bell hooks' idea of love without clinging, love without lust or posessing, or any negative oppressiveness at all. this does not lead me to an agreeance with SP's constant negative reinforcement of 'sense enjoyment.' in fact, he continuously mistranslates the sanskrit to mean 'sense enjoyment' when it instead means 'attachment,' etc. there is a difference. this is why SP's versions are not used in academic circles--they do not properly reflect the source material. there is much more information to be found regarding this topic at:(oops, can't post URLs yet... search google for hare Krishna Women. it's a blog. if anyone's interested. it's a nice site that i ran into. she knows sanksrit and calls out the mis-translations. these were changed because SP knew the average american was about as far away from lust as a, well, any two things that are never apart. he was also sent with the goal of starting a mission. societies need rules to keep members. i have sex from time to time. i don't deny it, and i'm not ashamed of it. i don't think Krsna gave me this body to not use it and enjoy it in thanks for his gift... but how many times do i think about sex on a daily basis when i'm not actually engaged in sex? none. because it is the lust that i have worked on. when i have sex it is a physical expression of love. and thus transcends the physical. and that love is not only love for partner, but love for the act, the bodies, and everything else that is a part of Krsna. we need to stop being afraid of ourselves. we are part & parcel with Krsna, and it is our lack of surrendering to Him, of not turning to Him in ALL that we do that keeps us from Him. so thus it works for the celibate and the non-celibate alike. some people may have a harder time with sex, i admit that... i have never been a particularly sexually-charged person. some people may need these repressive yogic tactics. but bhakti is emotion, and repression can turn a heart to stone. i recomment the book "natural bhakti" by Ram Das, one of Narayana Maharaja's disciples. there is a free .pdf linked here: go to chakra dot org, search natural bhakti, link from first one that comes up. ISKCON tends to have the opinion that there are only 3,000 or so initiates outside of India because the rest of the world is just so awful. no. it's because the rest of the world has grown out of the need of negatively reinforced oppression hundreds of years ago. so many times i read these so-called 'enlightened' personalities from ISKCON trash talking karmis, etc. this is so rajasic. this negativity and attachment to repulsion is what Krsna HIMSELF refers to in the Gita as a sign of a conditioned, attached soul. let's stop being afraid! Krsna is our benefactor! He is our well-wisher! He LOVES us and only wants us to turn our sight towards Him. And turning our sight towards Him is NOT turning away from the physical! He is the physical just as He is the spiritual. He is the All-Pervasive Supreme Personality! He is in sex, whether you have a puritanical background and want to admit it our not. He is in every action! Hare Krsna!

has anyone heard of the Gita found in Bali or Farrukhabad? it is supposedly the original verses and not nearly as long as those added to it afterward. it's written about in the book 'gita as it was' by sinha, though this person is an athiest from what i can tell and i don't trust his conclusions at all... just curious if anyone else had heard about these other two versions and their lengths...

i'm new to this message board and wanted to ask some questions regarding vaisnavism. i am attracted to about 99% of what ISKCON has to say, and have begun developing appreciation of Krsna... however, i am repelled by the negativity in regards to drugs, sex, etc. it seems that the strict regulations are the backbone to gaudiya vaisnavism and especially the hare krishna movement. and yet ISKCON is the most accessible form of vaisnavism in the west. are there any alternatives? i am not looking for a free pass for indulgence, i agree with the idea that one should not live in craving for sex, drugs, etc. but i have a hard time identifying with a group that so often negatively reinforces these regulations. are there any similar groups that do not stress regulations as much or as often? what are the regulations found in pushtmarg? can anybody help me out?