Bart Happel

Dear Dark Warrior,

I’m really interested in your point against Advaita or Monism. Can you please give a compact presentation of the arguments in outsider’s language?

Kind regards, Bart

Dear Ravindran,

Thank you for the proof. It seems to fit in very nicely with the notion of hierarchical 'fractal geometry' that I discussed above, in post #68

Thanks again,

Bart

Interesting what you write Bart Prabhu, however, what do you mean - "while reality itself simply is what it is".

I mean: Material reality (in the model) is completely deterministic. However, qualitatively different dynamical aspects (phase-projections) of material reality may be perceived (by different viewers).

Kind Regards,

Bart

Bart, I agree with you and Sarva gattah that we do not have freewill. With exception of post # 7, yet to see a good enough explanation without contradictions.

 

You are unknowingly espousing a pluralistic model instead of a monistic one where you have A) a soul and B) material reality or pluralistic in the sense that there are millions of multiple beings and the universe as part of him (with each different from another). In order for the model to be monistic, you have to explain away the material reality and this includes our material bodies. So there is no question of a material body having a feewill.

 

Even otherwise, if the material reality does not have freewill it implies that even soul aka God does not have any freewill. Why? because it has not created anything in the first place. Zilch creation. Whatever we see is ignorance or ego. So even the soul does not act and in a sense does not have freewill. I don't know which ancient monistic model you follow, but according to Sankara, there is nothing created in the first place.

First of all, I’m only testing (following) this chaotic model of reality. The model can also be viewed from a dualist standpoint (as I showed earlier), but a monist view neatly eliminates the problem of ‘who created God (who created the universe)’. I like that. So I try to continue on this theoretical path. And if there is no free will, then there is basically no problem for the model.

So, let’s keep it simple: no free will. Your ‘pluralistic argument’ seems to indicate a problem with the existence of “millions of multiple beings”, all being similar but different from one another. Interestingly, phase-projections of a chaotic attractor typically display a ‘self-similar’ structure. This means that not only are similar (but different) spatial structures repeated many times in state-space, but similar structures are also repeated within similar structures, within similar structures, infinitely.

For example, complete representations of the universe may be seen at every spatial scale in the model, as a part of complete representations of the universe at a larger scale, as part of complete representations of the universe at an even larger scale, etcetera. This is called a ‘fractal geometry’. Thereby, no representation of the universe is exactly the same as any other representation of the universe at any scale.

Your argument that ‘there is nothing created in the first place’ seems to be irrelevant in the light of the above

Kind regards,

Bart

There is almost no free will in the body we are in, we are simply dragged around by the demands of the body and mind we have slowly created over the millions of live's we have developed with the very little free will we have, that covers our real identity.

 

The choice to use free will allows us to choose to leave Gods Kingdom and attempt our own thing in the material. But quickly in the confines of the material world or mahat tattva trapped within the material bodies we lease off Maha Vishnu, we learn we have very little so called freedom and therefore spend most of our time serving our material bodies.

 

Next time the body is forcing you to go to the stool house, practise your free will and ability to choose and say no

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed, in the monistic chaotic model of reality, there isn’t any free will at all. Once the initial conditions are set, the system will evolve completely deterministically. As I said earlier: “Maybe something even more subtle than chaos is needed to explain our free will”. If free will exists, however, I guess it must be part of the soul, and it must be somehow detached from material reality, while still being a part of the whole (God).

We may then have the freedom to change our conscious-perception of material reality. In the chaotic model, it is even possible that by changing our conscious-perception of material reality, we will perceive a slightly different ‘dynamical regime’, in which our material actions seem to have slightly different material consequences. Underneath it all, however, there is a perfectly deterministic material reality.

So, free will may be the ability to perceive reality in (qualitatively) different ways, while reality itself simply is what it is.

Kind regards,

Bart

Haha, say what you think is true, that will do fine, possibly..

Pardon?

Dear Bart,

 

Thanks for the explanation. Your model is still not a monistic one. In a monistic model, only ONE (not-TWO) thing exists i.e. God or the soul. Everything else including your body, my body, others, pig, skunk, your explanation of freewill!!!, is maya or a delusion. The model crumbles as soon as you say "we" or "I" or "you" or "it". No amount of "trying" to relate with biology or quantum mechanics to provide a rational explanation will help.

 

So who is ignorant when you and I do not exist? If you still say we really exist, the monistic model/s that people have been trying to explain (in vain) throughout the ages falls like a pack of cards.

Dear Justin,

I started my previous post with the phrase: In the model, the entire universe – with all its intricate material structure and all its Souls – emerges from a single source of pure energy (God).

So anything coming from that, must be 'one'. I don't see where the model can go wrong (as a monist view).

Dear Justin,

Allow me to try and answer your question in terms of the ‘monistic chaos model of reality’ suggested earlier.

In the model, the entire universe – with all its intricate material structure and all its Souls – emerges from a single source of pure energy (God). This energy source ‘fills’ absolute-space with energy and matter, according to an exquisitely complex infinite dynamical pattern. The most energy-dense regions in this pattern are what we call solid matter. Souls are probably the most complex regions. Material organisms may be created around our Souls, somehow as a side-effect of the material ‘position’ of our Souls.

In terms of the model, Mukti may be the Soul living in a ‘complex dynamical regime’ that is qualitatively different from life of the same Soul in the material world, which is another ‘complex dynamical regime’. Reaching Mukti may be seen as a dynamical ‘phase-transition’ of the life of the Soul from one dynamical regime into another.

Living organisms may be an intermediate dynamical regime between simple dead matter and Mukti, in which the perception of Mukti is hidden by our material sense-organs. In Mukti our Souls may develop different, more sensitive senses. God knows what we will see there.

So, who is ignorant? I guess ‘we’ are. And our collective ignorance is possibly part of Gods ignorance. And our free will must somehow be Gods free will. We may be Gods agents.

Kind regards,

Bart

Well, I like to see this proof

I mean not You, but 'people in general'.

I can't tell you that. But isn't it true that people can be offended?

You have no clue how Lord Chaitanya is going to manifest.

 

Without guns and bombs, Moscow would still not allow Hare Krishnas to dance in the streets.

But you don't know that for sure either..

Why shouldn't there be such a thing?

Yup, somethin' like this could become WW-III. Let's hope that enough relevant people see this also..

I really think you are going too far Dark. You spoiled the topic.

I have not read all scriptures or other books, but I believe in that Krishna knows it all.

 

He has decided your destination, and given you the option to pick your path. The path you opt for as a result of your free will was also destined - this means - that this path itself was a type of destination and your thoughts to pick that path were your options. And the recursion continues..

 

What we know at a moment is exactly what we are supposed to know at that moment. Krishna knows more about it than what He reveals to us - that is His playful nature - to give us this pleasure of thinking that we had a choice. He does not have to prove himself.

 

If today, you think that your will is to not do anything as Krishna will give you what you are destined for - believe me - Krishna would have destined you to not receive anything

But what would be the fun for Krishna, if 'we' don't really have free will?

Let's hope Tehran doesn't have 'the bomb' yet..

Namashkar gurujis

 

I have been told that my horoscope shows a complete lack of interpersonal skills. I am born in anuradha nakshatra, which I think is a good nakshtra for friendships. I am very keen to know which planet signifies my lack of interpersonal skills.

 

Also, moon in scorpio is considered debilitated, then howcome anuradha nakshatra is considered very good with respect to balance in relationships.

 

My moon is in anuradha nakshatra, in scorpio in 11th house. (Capricorn Ascendant)

 

Regards

SoGo

I don't think anything is wrong with your interpersonal skills.

ie..... the gift of knowledge left by an old teacher in words

 

meaning we can read of words from 2000 years ago and feel what they did.

 

that is a tangible example of transcending time

 

or like a prophecy/dejavu..... we experience the event and then it occurs.

 

that is what consciousness does; we can experience an 'idea' and even run through the sequence of possibilities before we even act or cause the action to exist.

 

IN a physics form this is almost as if the account is observed before the action of causality (cause and affect).

 

Now in a physical or experimental construct; entanglement can be shared in this fashion; to take a wavelength of 1300nm light, and split it with a BBO crystal, we now have 2 portions of the ONE, at 650 nm. Put one side in your pocket and send the other to the other side of the universe. Take the one in your pocket and turn it 180 degrees, the other will do the same at the exact moment, no matter how far, or where it is.

 

Another analogy could be twins. Often of the same egg, same rearing yet separate people with a high concentration of entangled energy; they can often experience what the other is, no matter where they are at

 

OK then in prophecy; even as the occurrance is past, just by a story we can experience what they may have simply by words

 

then in the future, if that experience is of high emotions, often then feelings can be captured by someone in this current period

 

in all cases, these are physically real; not magic!

Thanks!

... each of consciousness is capable of seeing fore and aft in time as time is one with all existence; a part to that cycle of change

 

the technical term is entanglement. it is not magic, or the suppernatural, nor of reincarnation. ...

Can you explain how this works?

Kind regards,

Bart

Dear Bart,

 

That monistic Chaos system model of yours is a brilliant conception. It appeares to have potential to resolve all paradoxes and complications in religious thinking. It is a worth wile attempt to systematically and regorously develop this model. I think you have hit at something very important and grand.

However one must wait and see what form it takes up and what new problems it throws up. Do develop it regorously. And let me know its development. I am interested in it.

 

Regards,

K.Ravindran

I’m thinking about implementing a computational simulation of the model, using some chaotic oscillator algorithm. It may then be possible to observe in phase-projections, something analogous to certain quantum mechanical phenomena, such as the instantaneous (non-causal) correlation between distant particles, i.e., what Einstein called ‘spooky action at a distance’ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics)]. Even something like relativistic large scale ‘space-time curvature’ may be observed in the simulation. I’ll keep you informed, but this may take a while.

Kind regards,

Bart

What's your interest?

Are you afraid of Krishna or your guru?

Dear Pankaja_Dasa,

Actually I think 'fear' is maya. Hence, my question: What are you afraid of? When you see your 'fear', you may be able to solve the problem yourself, confronting it. Ultimately, even fear of death is not necessary. Spirit will live forever.

Kind regards,

Bart