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Which book tells you to chant the name Vaishnava? These labels were not made for chanting. That was not the intent as everyone ought to know. Feel free to correct me. Cheers

Seriously, just chant Nityananda's name and pray for devotion to Sri Sri Radha Krishna! One should not be attached to the name "Vaishnava" for that will get you nowhere. Chant the names of Nitai Gaura and Radha Krishna! Cheers

Theist, You are getting clobbered for one or more of these reasons. 1. Trying to bring Jesus under the Vaishnava umbrella. 2. Offering custom meanings to Sanatana Dharma and Vaishnavism. 3. Derogatory views on Hinduism. None of the above topics are relevant to your spiritual progress in any way. You would be better off sticking to spiritual topics and not get embroiled in mundane issues concering labels. Yes...Vaishnava is just another label and you gain exactly nothing by trying to change its meaning. Humility is the start and end of spiritual progress and faulting another man's belief is not being humble. Addressing people as Prabhu and signing off posts with "Humbly yours", "your servant", etc is not humility. Cheers

This may be inaccurate. I read on the internet a year ago that Iskcon population - at least in the US was dwindling. Even temple visitors were mostly Indian Hindus. Most Hindus are blissfully unaware of Iskcon's condescending views on Hinduism and visit their temples just as they would visit any other Krishna temple. Spirituality and organized religion ae polar opposites. The latter is more akin to a corporate structure intent on increasing revenue and improving the bottomline. People get too involved in such activities to the point where they forget why they signed up in the first place. Most of their thoughts and time are expended in propoganda activities, developing the temple, bringing in more and more donations, etc., the results of which becomes the yardstick to measure their spiritual ability and progress. In my opinion, spirituality has gone out the window somewhere along the way. Cheers

Says who? Tattavada or Hare Krishnas? I am not aware of a Tattavada scholar announcing one morning that the destruction was "complete". "Complete destruction" in any meaningful sense has past precedents and we are inclined to look back at these precedents to know what it entails. When Kumarila Bhatta slam-dunked Brahmins who had converted over to Buddhism and bought them back into the Brahmin fold, his victory would qualify as complete destruction as after his time, there is no record of the existence of Buddhist Brahmins to speak of. Later when Advaita battled Mimaamsa, their victory was complete too as even Nicholas cage after two National Treasure hunts would be hard pressed to locate a Mimaamsa Brahmin in India. If complete destruction is viewed in the perspective of the above two defeats, then it is easy to see it does not apply for Advaita. It is also unbelievable that any Tattvavada scholar of repute would make such a sweeping announcement while from what we have seen of Gaudiya Vaishnavism thus far; it is easily believable that a Hare Krishna would make such a careless, inaccurate statement. But not great enough to be followed. From a practical perspective we have to question the greatness of an Acharya who is not good enough for us to follow. The two basic premises of Mahaprabhu – Radha worship and the reversal of the Krishna avatar (Vishnu came from Krishna) – are summarily rejected by traditional Vaishnavism and specifically in this case by Ramanuja. Hence, any oneness between the two would be entirely imaginary and would be more a matter of convenience than anything else; much like Prabhupada finding it necessary to approve Jesus in the West to build his organization. Cheers

I notice (as usual) theist and GHari glossed over and completely ignored the explicit quote of Sanatana Goswami. As usual again, they instead tried to divert attention by ad hominem attacks which is now second nature to them. This is what I mean by lack of honesty or should we use fanaticism as a more accurate word? Brush aside everything that does not jell with my views by diverting attention and continue to fixate on my sentimental views notwithstanding the fact that there is no evidence to support my position and there is plenty of evidence against my position. Now if you have the guts, you shoud be able to come forward and deal with that quote by providing a proper justification. Or admit you do not understand what he (Sanatana Goswami) is saying. Avoiding the topic just does not reflect well on you. Skirting an issue is a sure sign of defeat. Have a great weekend, folks! Cheers

It is not arrogance...I think it is time to reveal the solemn secret which will clear up the air. Iskcon does not adhere to Amarakosha or Merriam webster. They have their own custom dictionaries which are safely hidden in a top secret location. These dictionaires summarily override all the known dictionaries in the world, period. At their discretion, Chicago may mean Dallas, Guava may actually mean Apple (only igonorant people see them as different) and blue may well be green. Once you sign up to the organization and prove your mettle, then one full moon day you are taken along this secret passage through a hidden gateway into an ivory room where these dictionaries embedded with rubies and pearls and wrapped in fine silk are placed in a locked golden casket guarded by a talking King cobra with 5 heads. For the curious, the cobra speaks english/sanskrit/Bengali with a male voice of about 30 years of age. Needless to say, lacking qualifications myself, I have not had the good fortune to lay my eyes on these dictionaries or the talking cobra. However, based on past discussions with some of our esteemed colleagues here who have access to these dictionaries, I am aware of some of the "alternate" meanings which I will present here. Vedic Standard - of or related to the four vedas Iskcon version: All Hare Krishna beliefs and practices right upto their Prasadam recipes Hinduism Standard - The superset of the religious beliefs of of India ISkcon version - Nonsense/hodge podge/meaningless/coined by Muslims Sanathana Dharma Standard - New name of Hinduism Iskcon version - the original ancient name of the Hare Krishna belief. The only true Dharma Vaishnava Standard - worshipper of Vishnu Iskcon version - anything as defind by a Hare Krishna. Open license as long as Jesus is included Shaiva Standard - worshipper of Shiva Iskcon version - demigod worshippers for material needs...hell bound. Mayavada Standard - Another name for the Advaita Philosophy of Shankara Iskcon version - Anything that differs from Hare Krishna beliefs. Mcdonalds, Shaivas, Jews, Atheists, Christians who do not accept Krishna because he is not in the bible, Hindus who do not accept Jesus as a Vaishnava as he is not in Vaishnava scriptures....anyone Cheers

And here is the problem. The fact that you are seeking mercy from the Lord means the Lord does not have mercy on you right now. Why does the good kind Lord not have mercy on you? What crime did you commit? Or what was the crime of the deer being hunted down by a lion in Africa as we speak? So by default the Lord does not have mercy on people. Apparently they have to to some religious practice and work on it dilligently till death if it is a Western religion or if it is a eastern religion like Hinduism or Buddhism which supports the concept of reincarnation, they will have to work on it for several lifetimes over and over again. And then one morning (no telling when) the Lord will suddenly turn merciful. If not, keep doing more of the same awaiting that morning. What is good about this? The whole concept is fundamentally negative and taxes ones credulity to a severe extent. Not to mention that it reduces the Lord to the level of a whimsical human who has more power than he deserves. Cheers

Religion much like astrology gives us what we want. For the high maintenance, meticulous types there are elaborate and rigorous procedures for Yoga, chanting, fasting, locate a real Guru and perform service, etc combined with a million dos and donts. Deviation from rules is frowned upon and is likely to have an adverse impact on progress. On the other end of the spectrum, the same religious books will also give a free-for-all liberated alternative where one can just by a simple mantra or prayer or surrender, gain all the benefits available to the afore mentioned paths of rigor. The Gita is one of many examples of laying out multiple paths in detail and then undermining their importance by saying they are not really necessary as there are simpler ways to get there. Either the author was confused or he was clever to know this kind of writing would reach out to a wider audience. The book is written loosely enough that we can read of it almost anything we desire. This is how astrology works too. The individual - more than seeking specific answers is more interested in eliminating the suspense of what lies in future. Astrology exploits this intrinsic need and will make predictions loose enough to meet the expectations of such people and have them go back again and again. In the end we are unknowingly picking what we like and discarding the rest. Religion or astrology is just like a sounding board cleverly bouncing back our own thoughts and desires. Cheers

The dinosaurs vanished 65 million years ago and modern humans have been around for 200 thousand years. That leaves a gap of 64 million+ years between the last dinosaur and the first human. This is what science with all the available evidence says. We, of course, are free to reject whatever we do not like about science and replace it with our own contrived versions borrowed from religion and/or our own wishful fantasies. Fantasies such as dinosaurs coexisting with humans and a record of such co-existence written down in ancient sanskrit books. And then there are also the excuses of conspiracy theories and "imperfect senses" to thicken the plot... Cheers

Taking resort to praise form one's own camp hardly merits anything - when you fail to address simple questions. For example someone from George Bush's camp is all praise for Bush as follows, The spokesperson told me that the administration that Bush has made is the most obscure and brilliant from The East to West that I have ever seen. The spokesperson admitted that with all of his education and training he could not have thought of these obscure and brilliant decisions that so perfectly addressed the problems of the world. He then said having seen this work of Bush he was convinced that Bush was the greatest administrator in the history of civilization and must have been directly enlightened by the Supreme Lord Krishna to accomplish this work. Who will value this? Cheers

This concept of Krishna being the original was not invented by Hare Krishnas. It has been around since the 12th century AD and possibly earlier in North Eastern India along with Radha worship, though in small numbers as both these beliefs do not find a place in literature and therefore are not part of mainstream Vaishnavism. The translation is incorrect, alright. But then, this is not uncommon in Hare Krishna literature. There are instances where they tried to interpret certain Upanishads completely out of context to mean predictions of avatarhood of Chaitanya, etc. If you use the search feature, you may find connected topics. However, right or wrong, the fact that this literature is certified by Prabhupada is good enough for them as most of them are westerners lacking sanskrit knowledge and more importantly they lack knowledge of Hinduism to be aware of mainstream beliefs. They mostly come from Christian backgrounds and are more interested in aligning their Hare krishna beliefs with the bible than with established streams of Vaishnavism. I am inclined towards the Hare Krishna version. Most of the Gods worshipped today (Shiva, Ganesha, Krishna, Rama, Durga) are non-Aryan/non-Vedic in origin and I believe there is a good chance that they are just as old as the Aryan God Vishnu or maybe older. In connection, wikipedia writes Hinduism grew out of the Vedic religion which some of us feel is incorrect and there is a discussion topic open. Today's practices such as idol worship, temples and the popular Gods have nothing to do with the Vedas, but belong to a completely parallel stream which eventually became Hinduism. Cheers

Ah! The all-familiar arrogance again... Yes, what millions of Hindus have believed for a couple of thousand years becomes nonsense when a little Bengali cult with a handful of affiliates quotes a johnnie-come-lately Bengali book about the "real truth". And while you are at it, try 8th incarnation instead of 7th and you may just get slightly closer to the truth. Cheers

And please point out the line on this thread which is Mayavadi other than theist's attempts to divert attention to cover up his mistake. Or do you follow binary logic where anyone who is not a Hare Krishna is a Mayavadi? Cheers

Escapist response. You contradicted yourself and have not the courage to admit it. Sanatana Dharma and 18.66 do not go together based on simple logic and common sense. If you cannot admit it or if you try to run circles around it, it does not change a thing. Cheers

Using the name "Sanatama Dharma" is not going against Shastra. So what do you think I am saying? Krishna is worshipped by many for material gains and there are people who worship the so called "demi-gods" for spiritual gains. Hence your statement is incorrect. Material gains are important, my friend. Else, Iskcon would not have the funds to preach and thrive. You ought to be grateful to all those who have engaged in building material wealth as it has immensely benefitted your organization. Where do you think the money for the gandiose temples and ghee-rich prasadam comes from? A good number of people who flock to the Hare Krishna temples go there for material comfort. It gets them through the day and what is spiritual about that? I have seen Hare Krishnas wonder why they have material diffculties like family problems, health issues, etc. in spite of devoting their lives to the worship of Krishna. Aren't they then expecting a painless material life as a side-effect of their Krishna worship? Cheers

Once you call it Dharma, it comes under the net of "all varieties of Dharma" and is hence rejected. Krishna's statement was unconditional - covering all forms of Dharma (eternal and transient). He does not follow it up with his new definition of what Dharma means and neither can others - if they want to conform to his statement. Cheers

Mahak, it is already done. There is a seperate Hindu section on the forum as there is a Hare Krishna section. But for some reason, the Hare Krishnas have hijacked the Spiritual section and choose to post here instead of in the section created for them. This becomes a problem when they step out fo their Hare Krishna world and criticize Hinduism, Advaita, etc because someone is going to counter them and they so dislike that. If they want to live in a world where criticism flows one-way, that is from HKs to others and never the other way, then obviously they should stay clear of a generic Spiritual section. Cheers

Stick to the topic in hand and avoid digressing. This thread is about the validity of the label Hindu - not about patting each other on the back for preaching in bad weather. The validity is being questiond by Hare Krishnas and so I am perfectly in line. This forum is mostly habitated by Hare Krishnas in case you had not noticed. Most Hare Krishnas simply criticize the label for no reason other than "Prabhupada said so". Exceptions who think for themselves are few and obviously I am not addressing them here. Cheers

The majority of the people who are inclined towards this term have antiquity as the reason. There will always be a handful who deviate from the mainstream, but for realisitic reasons we will stick the mainstream version and not bother with individual opinions. There is the truth and then sometimes our own self-concoted versions of what the truth must be. Your version of Sanatana Dharma is one of these concocted cases. A few years back, Sanatana Dharma was coined as a term to label Indian religion in place of Hindu by Indian Patriots much like renaming Bomaby as Mumbai. The people who coined this term did not have Hare Krishna Vaishnavism in mind nor were they trying to shut out beliefs disliked by Hare Krishnas. Now if you want to step up and redefine the meaning of this label to suit your own preferences, then that would be a gargantuan task as you will have to make a case strong enough to convince millions of Hindus who have no interest in Hare Krishna religion. Feel up to the task? Contradicting yourself. Krishna tells Arjuna to abandon all varieties of Dharma which includes Sanatana Dharma (either the standard version or your own custom version) too, don't you think? By saying this you are just knocking off your own earlier support for Sanatana Dharma. Hinduism goes far beyond Krishna, a point hard to grasp by western Hare Krishnas who mostly see Indian religion through the little Hare Krishna spyglass. The simple fact of the matter, the majority of India do not even bother with the Bhagavad Gita. But if you have not spent enough time in experiencing India's various flavors of religion, you will have no clue what Hinduism means. And since this is the case with most of the people here, sweeping statements of ignorance on what Hinduism is or isn't will only show you in a bad light. The Hare Krishnas have up until now been very successful in garnering a reputation as being dogmatic and hotheaded along the same lines as born again Christians. By continuing to pass ignorant comments on Hinduism and claiming alleged superiority of your own belief over every other belief, you are upholding the Hare Krishna reputation as being incapable of looking at the big picture. Western Hare Krishnas can call themselves what they want, but desi Hindus are perfectly happy with their label and have no reason to switch. Cheers

From what I have seen, people who pooh-pooh the label Hindu and endorse the name Sanatana Dharma are under the false idea that it is an ancient name originating from scriptures. Now that it is known to be false, are they willing to give up on the new name and fall back on Hindu? Specifically for Hare Krishnas, this is an issue only because Prabhupada passed some caustic comments on the concept of a Hindu when he was not happy with their support for his cause. Otherwise Hare Krishnas would have little or no interest in the topic. Prabhupada was entitled to his opinions, mistaken as they may be. But why are people (adults too) copying his opinions without knowing the context and without thinking for themselves? If you were to set his opinions aside and think for yourselves, your opinions may well be different. This is not a religious topic where one has to parrot the Guru. In case you did not know, you are allowed to have your own opinions on non-religious topics without incurring Aparadha. During the last century, Punjab wanted to break away from India and be a country by itself. So did Tamilnadu. Reason? They felt they had their own distinct identity and did not want to be lumped into a country which was diverse - much like the argument of someone above on why the label Hindu should be removed. Of course, none of that lunacy came to pass, thankfully. There is no shortage of idiots in this world is all I can say. Cheers

Yes. It will roughly translate to eternal religion/law/code of life in english. It is an alternate name for Hinduism that was coined about a hundred or so years ago by some patriotic Indians who disliked the label Hindu as the term - although old - had its origin from foreign sources. The name caught on and some people prefer to use this label instead of Hinduism. Cheers

Without modern technology and advancements in science it is a resonable claim that some of us and/or our family members would not even be alive today. So instead of harping on and on about the "evils" of technology while simultanously using it in almost every aspect of your lives, be honest to yourselves and stop parroting pointless quotes made by someone else. I know, I know...you will now get defensive and try to tap dance by revising your criticism that you are only targetting a particular section of scientists. We have seen these games before and no one is gonna be fooled. Give it a rest folks. You are only showing yourself and your affiliates in a bad light with your hypocritical criticisms. Cheers

Actually Theist is one of the more stable ones on the forum and also one of the polite ones. This is not how he normally reacts to conflicting views, so I would say do not read too much into this remark. He was just probably not in a good mood. Cheers

Since the word expansion is being bandied around a lot here, can someone please mention the sanskrit word that got translated to expansion? Cheers