Self-Knowing

The Reality of Awareness appears to manifest through the mind/body, and at

the same time it seems that mind/body, ego, manifestations of siddhis, and

indeed all and any related perceptions, only exist within the Reality of

Awareness. It is the experience of the Sage that Reality exists along with

and independent of the conditions of the mind/body as well. Siddhis are only

the conditions of the mind. But the mind itself can be seen as only a

condition that appears to emanate from the Source of Knowing and disappears

into that. Therefore, Reality embraces all conditions and is limited neither

by duality nor nonduality or any particular theology, philosophy, radical

point of view, etc. Once an ice cube melts into water, it is hard to know

which portion of the water was the ice cube. Similarly, once the mind is

absorbed in the Heart, One Is the Heart. Yet, how can one ever have been out

of the Heart? The disappearance of this mystery might be called

Self-Realization.

Harsha

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

..

>

>However, an alternate interpretation seems more appropriate. Humans are

>engulfed in mAyA. As the evolutionary development takes place, the mind

>develops and associated with it is the development of the individualistic

>feeling of the jeevA (ahambhAvodayam). This binding by the individualistic

>feeling has to be unbound in order to attain moksha. Thus the necessary

>condition for liberation (the entity has to be in mAyA) is satisfied for

>the humans and hence humans are the only species fit for SELF-realization.

>Thus rather than seeing the humans as the pinnacle of wisdom, they need

>to be viewed as mAyA-bhUyishTA (engulfed in mAyA), thus are primary

>candidates for SELF-realization.

Murthy gaaru - all are engulfed in maaya if one thinks there are all to

start with. The difference between animals and human is the animal are

conscious but humans are self-conscious. The error that I am this body

however runs across the whole life forms. Since liberation invoves

knowledge one has to have appropriate inquiry mind to investigate - the

bondage is in the mind where there is a jeeva notion. Hence human form or

form that has the ability for conceptual thought is needed for knowledge to

take place. Otherwise we would have another list serve for cows and we

would have been flooded with lots of mail.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

namaste. My apologies to Shri Harsha for not addressing the points

which he raised. However, I like to use this title (of the thread)

to express a few thoughts on SELF-realization. Comments and corrections

are most appreciated.

In the English language, we use the word "realization" to mean that

we have not recognized something until some moment, and then if we

recognize it, we say we have realized something. If this recognition

is the SELF, then we say it is SELF-realization. That is, for

realization to take place, we have to be in an ignorant state to start

with.

Let us say there are two jeevAs X and Y.

JeevA X is a typical human, goes through the saMsAra, and then realizes

that saMsAra is not real, the jeeva X's feelings of joy, suffering, the

whole feelings while going through the ocean of saMsAra are not real.

Once this recognition is made, the jeeva X has become SELF-realized and

SELF-knowing.

Let us take the case of jeevA Y. JeevA Y does not think that he/she is

a jeevA. Only jeevA X thinks jeevA Y is a jeevA. For jeevA Y there is

no SELF-realization. Because jeevA Y is in a liberated state (liberated

from the individualistic feeling of jeevA).

The above logic leads to the conclusion that a necessary condition

for liberation (SELF-realization) is the entity has to be necessarily

engulfed in mAyA.

The shAstrAs tell us that we can get to moksha (liberation) only through

the human form. The interpretation associated with this is: it is so

because humans have the viveka using which the humans can make something

out of themselves, burn up the old karmA through good deeds and purify

the heart. Hence SELF-realization is possible only for humans.

However, an alternate interpretation seems more appropriate. Humans are

engulfed in mAyA. As the evolutionary development takes place, the mind

develops and associated with it is the development of the individualistic

feeling of the jeevA (ahambhAvodayam). This binding by the individualistic

feeling has to be unbound in order to attain moksha. Thus the necessary

condition for liberation (the entity has to be in mAyA) is satisfied for

the humans and hence humans are the only species fit for SELF-realization.

Thus rather than seeing the humans as the pinnacle of wisdom, they need

to be viewed as mAyA-bhUyishTA (engulfed in mAyA), thus are primary

candidates for SELF-realization.

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>advaitin

>advaitin

>Re: Self-Knowing

>Sat, 31 Jul 1999 22:36:17 -0230 (NDT)

>

>Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

>namaste.

>

>I am grateful to Shri Sadananda garu for his explanation. I am not

>entirely convinced of the emphasis he has placed on certain aspects.

>

>I agree that the bondage is in the mind, where there is the jeeva notion

>and this notion is put there by the intellect. The more the mind is

>developed, more it is capable of having that concept of bondage (to

>individuality). The less the mind is developed, less the chance of

>ahambhAvam (the ego, the individuality).

Murthy since you agree with me that the bondage is in the mind then the

solution should also lie there. In the less developed mind the the bondage

is not less - it is the otherway. If a fellow is a studpid and makes a

stupid mistakes and jails himself, is he less bound? He is more in the

tamasic state. One has to go from tamasic to rajasic to satvic states for

evalution. If you recall ahalya story - she was cursed to be stone for ages

till Rama resqued her. Essentially she got cursed by her own unintelleget

action that led to tamasic guna where she has to endure slowly turning her

attention to higher - towards Rama for him to come and resque. Evolution

goes from pure body conscious to mind and to intellect. The lord manefiest

more in the pure intellect. See the Shankra's statement in Atmabodha:

sada sarvagotapyaamaa

na sarvataavabhaasate

budhyaaveva bhaasate

swachheshu pratibinbavat||

Although atma is all pervading it does not shine everywhere in its full

glory. It shines only in the pure intellect just as the light shines in the

pure or clean mirror.

>I realize that in a fully

>developed mind, the content could be ego-less. However, recognizing

>that the mind is the housing for this thought of bondage, it is

>reasonable to think that it is more probable that the thought of

>bondage (to individuality) is more prevalent in the humans with a

>better developed mind than in other species.

A more developed mind may be able to realize the problem that he is in

compared to the underdeveloped mind. That only means the underdevelped mind

does not even come to a stage even to recognize the problem he has. This

ignorence it not bliss! Only he has long way to go or longer way to go.

>

>The requirement of Knowledge is there only if one is engulfed in

>avidyA. If one is not engulfed in bondage, where is the need for

>liberation ? Yes, liberation involves Knowledge, but liberation is

>required only if one thinks one is in bondage.

>

>Shri Sadananda said above ".... Since liberation involves knowledge

>one has to have appropriate inquiry mind to investigate - bondage is

>in the mind where there is a jeeva notion. Hence human form or form

>that has the ability for conceptual thought is needed for knowledge

>to take place. ...."

>

>As I understand Shri Shankara's teachings, Shri Shankara says

>repeatedly that the mind cannot acquire the Knowledge (I mean here

>the higher Knowledge of moksha). The human mind is entirely

>unnecessary for moksha. If we understand moksha as liberation (from

>the thought of individuality) and because this thought of individuality

>has its origin in the mind (propelled by the intellect), yes, in that

>context, the appropriate purification of the mind is necessary before

>moksha is attained. Beyond the purification, the human mind does not

>have any role in moksha. Further, we should not forget that human mind

>is the culprit to start with. Why do we need to glorify and over-emphasize

>its significance ?

>

I think there is some confustion. The liberation is only by the mind and for

the mind and to the mind. The atma does not need liberation since it is

eternally liberated. The notions and misunderstanding are only in the mind

and without the mind there is liberation - The mind that is not necessory is

the extrovert mind that is running after things. What is needed is a

contemplative mind and without that no knowledge, subjective or objective

takes place.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote:

> "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda

>

>

>

>

> >Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy

> .

> >

> >However, an alternate interpretation seems more appropriate. Humans are

> >engulfed in mAyA. As the evolutionary development takes place, the mind

> >develops and associated with it is the development of the individualistic

> >feeling of the jeevA (ahambhAvodayam). This binding by the individualistic

> >feeling has to be unbound in order to attain moksha. Thus the necessary

> >condition for liberation (the entity has to be in mAyA) is satisfied for

> >the humans and hence humans are the only species fit for SELF-realization.

> >Thus rather than seeing the humans as the pinnacle of wisdom, they need

> >to be viewed as mAyA-bhUyishTA (engulfed in mAyA), thus are primary

> >candidates for SELF-realization.

>

> Murthy gaaru - all are engulfed in maaya if one thinks there are all to

> start with. The difference between animals and human is the animal are

> conscious but humans are self-conscious. The error that I am this body

> however runs across the whole life forms. Since liberation invoves

> knowledge one has to have appropriate inquiry mind to investigate - the

> bondage is in the mind where there is a jeeva notion. Hence human form or

> form that has the ability for conceptual thought is needed for knowledge to

> take place. Otherwise we would have another list serve for cows and we

> would have been flooded with lots of mail.

>

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

>

namaste.

I am grateful to Shri Sadananda garu for his explanation. I am not

entirely convinced of the emphasis he has placed on certain aspects.

I agree that the bondage is in the mind, where there is the jeeva notion

and this notion is put there by the intellect. The more the mind is

developed, more it is capable of having that concept of bondage (to

individuality). The less the mind is developed, less the chance of

ahambhAvam (the ego, the individuality). I realize that in a fully

developed mind, the content could be ego-less. However, recognizing

that the mind is the housing for this thought of bondage, it is

reasonable to think that it is more probable that the thought of

bondage (to individuality) is more prevalent in the humans with a

better developed mind than in other species.

The requirement of Knowledge is there only if one is engulfed in

avidyA. If one is not engulfed in bondage, where is the need for

liberation ? Yes, liberation involves Knowledge, but liberation is

required only if one thinks one is in bondage.

Shri Sadananda said above ".... Since liberation involves knowledge

one has to have appropriate inquiry mind to investigate - bondage is

in the mind where there is a jeeva notion. Hence human form or form

that has the ability for conceptual thought is needed for knowledge

to take place. ...."

As I understand Shri Shankara's teachings, Shri Shankara says

repeatedly that the mind cannot acquire the Knowledge (I mean here

the higher Knowledge of moksha). The human mind is entirely

unnecessary for moksha. If we understand moksha as liberation (from

the thought of individuality) and because this thought of individuality

has its origin in the mind (propelled by the intellect), yes, in that

context, the appropriate purification of the mind is necessary before

moksha is attained. Beyond the purification, the human mind does not

have any role in moksha. Further, we should not forget that human mind

is the culprit to start with. Why do we need to glorify and over-emphasize

its significance ?

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------