One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

krsna · 12-16-2005, 06:37 AM

Is Guru Diksha necessary? Does Guru Diksha has many forms? One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important?

What is the relation between Guru and a disciple like and how does it start?

What is the disciple’s duty towards the Guru?

Can the Guru be one’s deity?

If a husband and a wife both take Diksha from the same Guru then does that make them brother and sister?

When there are so strict tests to test a disciple then are there tests for a Guru too?

Can a disciple who has had Diksha from one Guru get Diksha from another Guru? Would this be a sin?

12-16-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

12-16-2005, 05:41 PM

Good question, friend, and the answer is quite sublime and the essential nectar of the science of Krsna Consciousness.

Krsna's love for all of us is eternally and fully developed. So there is really nothing can be done to get Him to love us more. Krsna Consciousness has nothing to do with getting God to do anything. Even learning about Him only leaves us in frustration because when we reach the pinnacle of such learniong, the only thing we KNOW is that we know nothing about His love.

Krsna Consciousness is what we do. We DEVELOP our love for Him, because we have forgotten this inherant love due to much contamination from time immemorial.

We do not need diksa guru to learn about Krsna, he has made himself known by a variety of sources, none to be minimized. He gives us realization from within as Lord Paramatma, His shastra is available, greatly due to His glorious and confidential associate Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada laso gives us access to all past authorities, the lives anbd teachings from historical pure lovers of Krsna.

So why do we need diksa? To give love back to Krsna. The spiritual master is there to be a direct receptical of this love, and the key to the authority of a spiritual master is that he will never take this love upon Himself, rather immediately lay such love of His disciple at the feet of His Guru and His Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

Krsna has a personal relationship with us, but we need to reciprocate such a wonderful and causeless gift. The Guru gives us ability to practically apply this reciprocal love.

So, the answer is the difference between theory and practice. We may love a beauty queen, worship her picture, but real love is in meeting her and becoming her associate. A great way to really become close to her is by befriending her child, her heart will melt for you. So, in this line, we have a das das anudas situation. Krsna Loves us fully and unconditionally, but we love him back by becoming confidentially linked to those who have unconditional love for Him.

Did I lose you? Hare Krsna, Mo latah, yo brah, mahaksadasa

05-22-2007, 12:57 PM

Because the Diksa guru is the one that connects you to Krishna. This point needs to be understood properly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krsna

Is Guru Diksha necessary? Does Guru Diksha has many forms? One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important?

What is the relation between Guru and a disciple like and how does it start?

What is the disciple’s duty towards the Guru?

Can the Guru be one’s deity?

If a husband and a wife both take Diksha from the same Guru then does that make them brother and sister?

When there are so strict tests to test a disciple then are there tests for a Guru too?

Can a disciple who has had Diksha from one Guru get Diksha from another Guru? Would this be a sin?

theist · 05-22-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

05-22-2007, 03:09 PM

In diksa one receives the sacred Gayatri mantra. These are not some empty rituals, external to the bhakti process. If you think like that you are not worthy of the mantra and you might as well just read books untill you develop some maturity.

The absurdities spouted on this subject by various so called disciples of Prabhupada are astonishing.

stonehearted · 05-22-2007, 04:04 PM

mahak:

Quote:

The Guru gives us ability to practically apply this reciprocal love.
So, the answer is the difference between theory and practice.

Nicely said. What do you think you can actually learn without diksha? Some verses? Memorize some lists? Fine--then that's what you'll get. But real transcendental knowledge is more than collecting information. The process for learning to love Krishna, for awakening our inherent love for Him, is described by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in His instructions to Sanatana Goswami (Cc. Madhya-lila, Ch. 22). That's how Krishna reveals Himself to the sincere devotee. If you want something else, then some other process (or lack of process) may work.

Guruvani · 05-22-2007, 04:49 PM

I was reading somewhere in the Bhagavatam the other day where Srila Prabhupada used "initiated" and "inspired" interchangeably.

Spiritual diksha is more like being "inspired" by some Vaishnava.
Formal diksha is just that........... a formality.

The most important thing is to get inspiration from a Vaishnava to take up devotional service to Krishna.
The formal thing is mostly just a formal way of confirming this connection and this inspiration that one gets with a representative of Krishna.

This formal diksha being popularized as the latest fad by neophyte gurus has no special spiritual significance.

If one has some form of connection to a pure devotee who inspires him to take up devotional service, then in essence he has been initiated into Krishna consciousness.

Mahaprabhu and all his successors have authorized and empowered every living entity in the universe to chant Hare Krishna maha-mantra.

Under the circumstances, no formal diksha is mandatory if one takes complete shelter of the Holy Name of Krishna.

Diksha is already there if one get's inspired by a representative of Krishna to chant Hare Krishna.

theist · 05-22-2007, 05:04 PM

Inspiration : to breath or take in spirit. 'In spirit', one of my favorite words.

theist · 05-22-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

TRANSLATION CC 15.108
“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT
Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):
divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam
tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

Guruvani · 05-22-2007, 05:27 PM

At one time George Harrison was wanting initiation from Srila Prabhupada.
Some of the devotees approached Srila Prabhupada and told him that George Harrsion wanted to be initiated.
Srila Prabhupada replied to them that George Harrison didn't need formal diksha and that if he could just use his fame and influence to propagate the Holy Name of Krishna that this would be the best service for George.

muralidhar_das · 05-22-2007, 06:07 PM

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential

Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

Guruvani · 05-22-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muralidhar_das

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential

Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

But, I am confused how the diksha mantras on the tape of Srila prabhupada just automatically lost all potency and power upon his passing on.

Srila Prabhupada acknowledged in his presence that mantras on tape can be just as effective and potent as mantras spoken directly.

So, I don't accept the conclusions that somehow the Maha-mantra on tapes of Srila Prabhupada or Sridhar Maharaja have somehow become invalid simply because they left their mortal bodies.

I think that getting Maha-mantra from the tape of Srila Prabhupada is potent at all times and in all situations.

I am sure you don't agree with that.

Shakti-Fan · 05-22-2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guruvani

But, I am confused how the diksha mantras on the tape of Srila prabhupada just automatically lost all potency and power upon his passing on.

Srila Prabhupada acknowledged in his presence that mantras on tape can be just as effective and potent as mantras spoken directly.

So, I don't accept the conclusions that somehow the Maha-mantra on tapes of Srila Prabhupada or Sridhar Maharaja have somehow become invalid simply because they left their mortal bodies.

I think that getting Maha-mantra from the tape of Srila Prabhupada is potent at all times and in all situations.

I am sure you don't agree with that.

I was once at an initiation ceremony with Srila Prabhupada. I was only in the Movement for 3 months so I wasn't recommended for first initiation. All the devotees in the temple who were there for more than 6 months got Hari nama. So when I was in the temple room I was about 20 ft. from Prabhupada so I heard him chanting on their beads. So I heard the maha mantra directly from Prabhuapada's mouth. 3 months later I was given hari nama by mail. When was I first initiated? Obviously 3 months later by mail! Why, because of his intention or desire. Similarly if someone who didn't have second initiation from Srila Prabhupada, went into the TP's office and popped in the tape of Prabhupada chanting gayatri (say in 1975) that wouldn't mean they were second initiated unless Prabhupada desired it to be so. The same situation exists in current time.

muralidhar_das · 05-22-2007, 06:54 PM

Srila Govinda Maharaj said that when a genuine Guru accepts a person as his disciple, with or without any mantra, that is the when the Guru-disciple relationship begins. Everything else is ritual.

Guruvani · 05-22-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakti-Fan

if someone who didn't have second initiation from Srila Prabhupada, went into the TP's office and popped in the tape of Prabhupada chanting gayatri (say in 1975) that wouldn't mean they were second initiated unless Prabhupada desired it to be so. The same situation exists in current time.

But, maybe you like to forget this, but Srila Prabhupada empowered the GBC and then later the ritviks to give approval on his behalf.

So, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority that the approval of the GBC or the approval of the ritvik was as good as his personal approval.

Srila Prabhupada tooks his hands out of the personally approving process long before he stopped accepting disciples on the recommendation and approval of the GBC or the ritviks.

So, if the acharya empowers, then even his personal approval is not required. He can empower someone to accept disciples on his behalf.

So, maybe true that random hearing of the tape is not authorized.
But, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority and power to the GBC and the ritviks and that is historical fact.

Srila Prabhupada set up a system where the GBC would recommend or approve and then the tape would be played at the formal initiation.

Even his will is not always required.
If his empowered representatives approve then was acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada as his disciple.

05-22-2007, 07:10 PM

Well, I think there are some subtle inner workings going on that I certainly can't see. The Guru is planting and/or nurturing the bhakti lata bija in the heart of the devotee at the time of initiation.

I have seen my Guru perform initiations a few times. One time, he was giving initiation to a woman, and at the end he said, I gave you initiation. And he pointed to the sky, and then into to her heart. Making a hand gesture, as if, during the time of initiation he was directly implanting something into her heart. So I think, there is indeed something subtle that the Guru is actually doing. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain, but although I don't disregard that the voice and chanting on-tape of the Spiritual Master does indeed have potency, I think its quite different than the process the Spiritual Master is actually doing when he himself gives initiation. I have seen and felt this with my own eyes.

Guruvani · 05-22-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guestanony

Well, I think there are some subtle inner workings going on that I certainly can't see. The Guru is planting and/or nurturing the bhakti lata bija in the heart of the devotee at the time of initiation.

I have seen my Guru perform initiations a few times. One time, he was giving initiation to a woman, and at the end he said, I gave you initiation. And he pointed to the sky, and then into to her heart. Making a hand gesture, as if, during the time of initiation he was directly implanting something into her heart. So I think, there is indeed something subtle that the Guru is actually doing. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain, but although I don't disregard that the voice and chanting on-tape of the Spiritual Master does indeed have potency, I think its quite different than the process the Spiritual Master is actually doing when he himself gives initiation. I have seen and felt this with my own eyes.

Quote:

But, maybe you like to forget this, but Srila Prabhupada empowered the GBC and then later the ritviks to give approval on his behalf.

So, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority that the approval of the GBC or the approval of the ritvik was as good as his personal approval.

Srila Prabhupada tooks his hands out of the personally approving process long before he stopped accepting disciples on the recommendation and approval of the GBC or the ritviks.

So, if the acharya empowers, then even his personal approval is not required. He can empower someone to accept disciples on his behalf.

So, maybe true that random hearing of the tape is not authorized.
But, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority and power to the GBC and the ritviks and that is historical fact.

Srila Prabhupada set up a system where the GBC would recommend or approve and then the tape would be played at the formal initiation.

Even his will is not always required.
If his empowered representatives approve then was acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada as his disciple.