here is a site devoted to Kung,his book
is two thirds of the way down on the left,
christianity and world religions.
http://www.gnooks.com/discussion/hans+kung.html

and also the methodist theology is the
same as most christian dogma when it comes
to jesus, trinitarian, jesus is god incarnate.

When kung writes that jesus is more historically
available, that is ebcause he is playing for his audience, christians.

in fact around 100 years ago the catholic church
started the catholic modernist movement, it was started
by the church due to the new science of biblical archeaology, they wanted to counter the new scientific
'science' of historical research of archaeology
which was new at the time.

so they decided to train a bunch of priests in archeaology
to search for the scientific historical proofs
of their beliefs.

it backfired, what happened is that the priests
couldn't find any proof, just the opposite,
and many left the church.

the historical jesus is paramount in most christian
dogma, since the data that is available that is subsantiated by science of jesus as a historical figure,
with his teachings as presented in the gospels,
since all that is non existant, just the opposite,
especially since the discovery of the dead sea scrolls,
it makes the christian contention of their theology
as being scientifically accurate untenable.

Haribol. If Jesus were to hear our friend frodo, he would tell us the same thing he told his disciples when they tried to say he was god., No he is not the Father, but his mission is the same.

If anyone comes close in Chaitanya Lila to the characteristics of Lord Jesus Christ, it is Haridas Thakur. The similarities are countless, and comparisons to Lord Brahma are also significant, (ie creator, only son of visnu (as in born from the lotus)).

Jesus served in total separation, crying blood in such separation, and for his unwavering service, he is serving without such separation as Haridas. Haridas even discussed with Lord Chaitanya how intolerable separation has become, and was "allowed" to pass prior to the disappearance of Mahaprabhu.

Jesus was not tolerable to his community (the sanhedrin), while haridas was not even allowed to enter the temple of Lord Jagganatha. Both were assaSSINATED BY THE GOVERNMENT who paid religious folks for treachery, both miraculously survived assassination after being declared dead.

Both emphasized the perfection of life is contained in the utterance of the Holy Names of the Supreme Lord.

Many see Lord Brahma as supreme, but Narada Muni discovers that Lord Brahma is subswerviant to a greater Supreme Lord. Similarly, many see Jesus as supreme being, but He denies this, saying that he is under the direction of his Father, doing His Father's bidding.

Lord jESUS IS THE SON OF nARAYANA, and Laxmi as well, whom Mother Mary is a partial incarnation of. Mary's position as Laxmi is confirmed by Srila Prabhupada (I saw the citation, but I have no access, an assist from an archive expert would be handy here.)

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Regarding the Christian's Trinity, I believe it is called God, the Holy Ghost, and the son. Person in Krishna Consciousness accepts this by the name Visnu, Paramatma, and Jiva. God is a Person, the holy spirit or the supersoul is a person, and the living entity is also a person. Also, Mary is the representation of the energy of God. Either as internal energy Radharani or as external energy Durga, the energy of Godhead can be considered the mother of the living entities. But there is no clash between the Bible and the Vedas, simply some people formulate their personal ideas and cause quarrelings. Letter to Sivananda NY April 19, 1968

Haribol, thanx theist, for the citation. There are others as well, I remember one where Srila Prabhupada stated that Mary's residence is as Laksmi, who is massaging the feet of the Creator Narayan. For years, I have referred to Mata Mary as Mother of Lord Jesus Christ, Wife of Lord Narayana. And, strict definition of the word "Israel" translates as the wife of God as well.

The coptics, and even the gnostics, also cite previous existance of Mata Mary in the description of The Pearl, who incarnated in the hearts of true ISRAELITES, chosen by dint of their own choice to freely serve the Supreme Lord.

Hare Krsna, and again, thanx, theist. ys, mahaksadasa

hey ,good post,
although most christian dogma believes that jesus
was not a jiva, some actually do,but most beleive
that jesus is God, the trinitarian doctrine
states that god the father is one with the holy spirit
and the son, the son is one with the holy spirit and the father,and the holy spirit is one with the father and the son.

then it says, that they are only distinct from each other,
in relation to each other,otherwise they are one
in substance.

like saying that you are one person, you have children
and are a father to them, you have people who work for you and you are their guide and director,and you have
parents who you are a son to, you are one person
but 3 distinct personas.

that is the trinitarian doctrine.

most christians believe that, although some sects have
a more mayavadi belief system, with jesus as an
enlightened human,and role model ,or guru,
that is also the christian gnostic belief
or christian mystery school belief.

http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/mas1.html

The story of the Pearl

http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/trin.html

A Trinity Perspective

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

Haribol Mahak, Nice to see you posting a little more these days.I am enjoying very much you and Babhru talking story on the early Hawaii days. I never came across the quote you mentioned but I will look for it and post it if i'm successful.

So much we can't see from our perspective. Tiny in the first place and then covered by this veil on top of that.Man its rough. But if we can learn to treasure the small bits I think the Lord will give us much more.

Shiva, the Christians need to see both as correct simultaneously. After reading Prabhupada when we read the book of John, especially where Jesus is speaking of his coming departure, it is very clear that he is saying one and difference. The trick is to see both at the same time not either /or. The Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead.

Thanks for the lead on the Hans Kung book.

Hare Krsna prabhus

Siva,

Thanks for the info. I will check out that site as soon as I have a chance.

Regarding the belief's of the Methodists, I know their theology cuz I was one. However, they may have changed their doctrine. This I do not know about.

The Methodist church started due to disagreement with other Christians religions because those particular religions believed Jesus was God, and not the son of God. This, the Methodists strongly took issue with, so they broke away and the Methodist church was founded.

And that is what I was taught (about Jesus) when I attended church. I believe we would have to look into it facutually if we wanted to see if anything changed, since that's an integral part of their doctrine.

I am not surprised the Catholics could not archeologically find much historical proof to back up their belief about Jesus. That's because Jesus is not one of them, he's one of us. :-)

As you may know, Jesus preached in India, Tibet, Peru, Etc. But where did he decide to settle down for the rest of his life? India! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I would not be surprised if, in their research, the Catholic church discovered more archeological findings in these areas than their own. Or they may have found out that Jesus was a Vaisnava, the very religion they detested, so they tried to brush that under the carpet, IMHO.

YS,
Prtha dd

As I was first reading this, I did not realize it was a quote from Prabhupada. Thank you for this. I had never heard that particular quote. Quite an eye opener, and it sure makes a person think.

Anyhow, always more to learn about spirutal life. Everytime we think we got it all figured out, there is more. Thank goodness for that. Ours is not a dull path. Keeps us humble too.

YS,
Prtha dd

maybe there are a variety of beliefs in methodism, i don't know, as far as i have studied they are a typical protestant
church.

http://www.umc.org/churchlibrary/dis..._standards.htm

here you can see the stated dogma on jesus is the typical
trinitarian belief, what branch of methodism did you
belong to ?

I didn't know Methodists had branches. They broke away from the portestants, as they Methodists "are" the branch, as I understood it. But its no big deal. If there were to alter their doctrine, I would not be surprised. Just that I wouldn't want to speculate on it as a fact, but ulatimately its not so important to me.

I belonged to the Methodist Unitarian church, which is just a regular Methodist church. Yes, they still believed in Father, Son and Holy Ghost, thus the Trinity idea is there, but the Methodists at the time understood "Son" actually as son. And as guru, tho they would never use that word; but not as God.

I don't know that Prabhupada was against the Trinity idea tho. Father being God/Krishna, Son being guru, and Holy Spirt being our soul or SuperSoul. Unless you have read something I have not. (Dogma, now that's different.)

YS,
Prtha dd

are you sure you mean unitarian not united ?

i've never heard of methodist unitarian,
the methodists indeed have different sects,
since he beginning of methodism.

the unitarian church or religion is a completely
different belief system, they do see jesus as an
empowered or enlightened person not god,
they are a syncretist religion believing in
the universalist or unity of all religions
and there is no one dogma for unitarians.

Methodists ,at least the ones i have heard of are all
believers in the standard trinitarian dogma,
you can read at the link i gave,
that beleif is that jesus was fully god and fully human,
in other words they believe that the body of jesus
was fully human and that his soul was in fact
an avatar of god the father and the holy spirit,
fully god.

Prabhupäda: Krsna, Christ... Of course, this question was several times put to me. Christ says that I am son of God. And Krsna says I am God. So there is no difference. Son of God and God, we respect everyone. If I respect your father, I respect you also. Do you mean to say if I disrespect your father, you'll be pleased upon me? No. That is our philosophy. So Caitanya Mahäprabhu says that I am servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. So if anyone loves Krsna, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love Krsna. If he says, Why shall I love Krsna? I shall love Jesus Christ, then he has no knowledge. And if one says, Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love..., then he has also no knowledge. If one understands Krsna, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand Krsna.


Prabhupada's view IS the Hare Krsna viewpoint.

christians mostly ask this quetion to non christians.

a vaishnav or a vedic person never asks a non vedic person, what they think of krishna or what jesus or bible says about krishna. if they ask, the answer is vaishnavism and vedic religions are false religions, the works of devil according to bible.

they do not want to accept the fact that jesus at puri temple in india.

Yes, it's often dangerous to speak too much to most Christians about these topics. Dangerous because they will be prone to blaspheme that which they don't understand.

There are exceptions but I have been burned so many times that now I just avoid them for the most part. Best to keep a friendly distant I've found.

Srila Prabhupada when speaking to them would always question them about their engagment in animal slaughter.

Hmmmm I could have sworn that sign outside the old Methodist church I use to attend said Unitarian, but now I am not sure. You could be right. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, as what they preached inside where I attended, regardless of what others preached, is that Christ was Son and not God. This, I felt, was one of the reasons I was able to come to Krishna consciousness, because I had never heard in my life that Jesus was God! Phew. Thank Krishna for that.

Maybe things have changed, but I read about the origin of Methoidists as rebellion against those who believed Jesus was God. There may be various opinions on this, as there are on everything. I know I should check out that link, I just have been busy reading Vedic shastra right now (about Lord Caitanya), and don't really want to read something else at the moment. But most likely, my curiousity will eventually get the better of me, and I will. :-) Thanks.

By the way everyone, HAPPY GAURA-PURNIMA!!!!!!!!!!!

YS,
Prtha dd

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things, both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there are three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The Son, who is the Word of the Father, the very and eternal God, of one substance with the Father, took man's nature in the womb of the blessed Virgin; so that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say, the Godhead and Manhood, were joined together in one person, never to be divided; whereof is one Christ, very God and very Man, who truly suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, to reconcile his Father to us, and to be a sacrifice, not only for original guilt, but also for actual sins of men.

this the stated dogma on jesus for methodists.
it is the exact same dogma as catholics, and most christian faiths.

your parents may have been methodists who becamwe unitarians,
the unitarian church believes exactly what you said,
and many people of different faiths belong to the unitarian church, catholic unitarians,jewish,muslim,
etc.

they are syncretists like vivekananda and ramamkrishna
preaching the unity of all religions ,all paths
are able to bring one to god, they do not accept
jesus as god though.

http://www.1wellbrock.org/methodism.htm

this is the origins of methodism, it had nothing to do
with the dogma of who is jesus, it had to do
with the way the lifestyle of the believer
should be.

is not good.

i have argued with they have not been able to accept any of their points.

one answer could be:
what does it matter to you?

i also tell them that jesus was not the only son of god.
we and you are not bastards.
we all are sons of god.

Such knowledge seems scanty in the Bible unfortunately.

Here is one quote from Psalms 82

Psalm 82
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'