BBT Directors Review Decision on initiated in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta

Regarding the restoration of Prabhupada's use of "initiation" in Caitanya Caritamrita Adi Lila chapter one, the real reason they are restoring it is because they realized they had made a grave mistake in changing Prabhupada's words based on the teachings of the caste goswamis (one of the 13 apasampradayas).

Dravida Das had previous explained the reason for the removal of Prabhupada's own words as follows:

"A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master... Having read that Jagannatha dasa Babaji initiated Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the reader would naturally assume that Jagannatha dasa Babaji is Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's initiating spiritual master. But we know that Bhaktivinoda already had one--Vipina Vihari Goswami--and so that impression would be false because "acceptance of more than one [initiating spiritual master] is always forbidden."

They had originally changed Prabhupada's personal words because they thought Bhaktivinoda Thakur was initiated by Bipin Bihari Goswami. But as has been pointed out to them, nowhere does Prabhupada teach that Bhaktivinoda Thakur's guru was Bipin Bihari Goswami. This is not one of Prabhupada's teachings at all. To change Prabhupada's teachings based on something they learned outside of ISKCON from the caste Goswamis is a grave offense to Prabhupada.

Having realized the obvious error in this change, and with no way to defend such a change, they decided to revert to the original. But they still shamelessly try to portray it as though it is their great kindness and openness that has led them to do this. They are not making this change because of "listening" to the devotee community. If they were listening they would revert all the changes (as more than 80% of the devotees are against any changes at all).

They are reverting this particular change because it is absolutely not defendable. There is no way at all that they can defend changing Prabhupada's personal words based on teachings from the caste Goswamis. They have taken an apasampradaya's teachings and changed Prabhupada's personally chosen words based on that.

The fact that they had not even noticed this grave offense and mistake until it was pointed out on the Sampradaya Sun shows they are not qualified to edit Prabhupada's books at all.

They purposely avoid mentioning Bipin Bihari Goswami's name in their recent letter, and instead say Bhaktivinoda Thakur received initiation "not from Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji but from someone else", which shows they are trying to hide the mistaken statement they previously made where they said Bipin Bihari Goswami is Bhaktivinoda Thakur's guru. Prabhupada has always taught that Bhaktivinoda Thakur's guru was Jagannatha Das Babaji. He has never once taught that his guru was Bipin Bihari Goswami, nor "someone else".

Also the fact that they only reverted that particular one word change, but kept all the other changes in that section show it was restored solely to cover up that huge mistake they made of saying Bipin Bihari Goswami was Bhaktivinoda Thakur's guru.

The facts of this case are as follows:

1) Prabhupada never once taught that Bhaktivinoda Thakur was initiated by Bipin Bihari Goswami, nor that Bipin Bihari Goswami was the guru of Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

2) Dravida learnt outside of ISKCON from caste Goswami's (one of the 13 apasampradayas) that Bhaktivinoda Thakur's eternal spiritual master and diksha guru was Bipin Bihari Goswami.

3) Based on this new revelation found outside of Prabhupada's teachings these editors have changed and "corrected" Prabhupada's own personally chosen words. They thought Prabhupada was wrong for saying "Jagannatha Das Babaji initiated Bhaktivinoda Thakur", because it didn't tally with their new found revelation regarding Bipin Bihari Goswami.

We should note that this same Bipin Bihari Goswami has written a letter rejecting Bhaktivinoda Thakur as his disciple, and he has also rejected the birth place of Mahaprabhu in favor of a fabricated site in Navadvipa. But Dravida Das, knowing more than Prabhupada, decided that Prabhupada's words needed to be corrected to fit in with his own view of Bipin Bihari Goswami being the eternal spiritual master and diksha guru of Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

People who have been influenced by the apasampradayas should not be changing Prabhupada's books. There needs to be a review and reversal of all these concocted changes made by this editor, and the devotee community has overwhelmingly requested this for many years.

After having their foolish mistake exposed, they are trying to spin this in their favour by claiming they have "listened" to the devotee community and are making this change to satisfy the devotees. Anyone with eyes can see through this smoke screen. This is just the usual dishonesty and secrecy surrounding all their book changes.

Vipina Vihari's name may not be mentioned in Srila Prabhupada's books but ... Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur himself said that Vipina Vihari Goswami was his Guru.

vipina-vihari prabhu mama prabhu-vara

sri vamshivadanananda-vamsha-shashadhara

(Bhagavat-arka-marichi-mala)

"Vipina Vihari Prabhu, my exalted Master, is like a brilliant moon in Sri Vamshivadanananda´s family line."

bipina bihari hari, tanr sakti avatari,

bipin bihari prabhuvar

sri guru-goswami rupe, dekhi more bhava-kupe

uddharila apana kinkar

tad-ajna palana kame, amrta-prabaha name

caitanya-caritamrta artha

racilam sayatane, arpilam bhakta-gane

path kari ghucao anartha

"Lord Hari, who loves playing in Vrindaban, incarnated (as) His potency in the form of my spiritual master Bipin Bihari Prabhu. In this form as my Sri Guru Goswami, he saved me, his servant, who had fallen in the pit of material existence. In order to carry out his instruction, I have carefully composed this commentary named Amrita-pravaha Bhashya, which describes the true meaning of Chaitanya Charitamrita. I herein dedicate this commentary to the devotees of the Lord and sincerely wish that people in general will be able to remove all the sinful impediments and obstacles in their lives by reading it in devotion."

(Amrita-pravaha Bhashya to the Chaitanya Charitamrta by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur)

sri-krsna-caitanya-krpa-patra-sri-bilvamangalaya namah

guror hareh padam dhyatva sri-vipina-viharinah

krsna-karnamrtasyeyam bhasa-vyakhya viracyate

Simple translation: "I offer respectful obeisance to Sri Bilvamangala Thakur, the recipient of Lord Krishna Chaitanya's mercy. Meditating on the holy feet of my guru Sri Bipina Bihari and Lord Hari, I am writing this Bengali translation and explanation of the Krishna Karnamritam.

(Mangalacaranam of Sri Krishna Karnamritam by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur)

Prior to accepting Jagannath Das Babaji as his guru, Bhaktivinoda Thakur performed the lila of acting like a conditioned soul. He ate meat and did other things that are not characteristic of a siddha bhakta. He also took ritualistic diksha from a caste Goswami.

The fact that Prabhupada does not consider Bipin Bihari Goswami to be Bhaktivinoda Thakur's guru is enough reason not to add such an idea into his books.

If people following caste goswami's want to teach that Bhaktivinoda's eternal guru was Bipin Bihari Goswami, and he was later left without a guru when Bipin Bihari rejected him, that is their right. But no one has a right to add such nonsense into Prabhupada's own books.

Srila Prabhupada taught that his guru-sishya parampara goes from Jagannatha Das Babaji to Bhaktivinoda Thakur, and that Jagannatha Das Babaji "initiated" Bhaktivinoda Thakur. That's what should remain in his books.

The direct disciple of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami was Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who accepted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti as his servitor. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, WHO INITIATED Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who in turn INITIATED Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji, the spiritual master of Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja, the divine master of our humble self.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura passed away 100 years before Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji was born.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur received siksa from Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, not diksa.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur did not give diksa to Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur received siksa from Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji, not diksa.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur did not give diksa to Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji.

Those are your opinions, and Srila Prabhupada's opinions differ. Since they are Srila Prabhupada's books, they should keep his personal choice of words intact so that his opinion can be given instead of yours. Afterall, they are his books. No one will object if you write your own book saying what you say above.

Diksha to you is a ritual, but to Prabhupada it is the transfer of divine knowledge.

Some people today even insist on having an initiation certificate ("diksha patra"). Prabhupada didn't value initiation certificates.

"Thakura Bhaktivinoda was not official Spiritual Master of Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja was already renounced order, Paramahamsa, but Thakura Bhaktivinoda, while He was even playing the part of a householder, was treated by Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja as Preceptor, on account of His highly elevated spiritual understanding, and thus He was always treating Him as His Spiritual Master. The Spiritual Master is divided into two parts; namely, siksa guru and diksa guru. So officially Bhaktivinoda Thakura was like siksa guru of Gaura Kisora das Babaji Maharaja."

Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dayananda, 05-01-69

The diksha guru is the direct representative of Bhagavan Sri Krishna, and he is the one who plants transcendental knowledge in the heart of the disciple; not the person who "officially initiates" the person and performs the ritual and ceremony.

In the case of Bipin Bihari Goswami, there is no evidence Prabhupada considered him to be the spiritual master of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Rather Prabhupada accepted Jagannatha Das Babaji as the one who "initiated" him.

Another point that should be mentioned is that the Caitanya Caritamrita was just printed in Shivakashi for the international BBT. There is not likely going to be another printing for a long time. So what ever change they claim to have reverted will not show up in any books for years.

The diksha guru is the direct representative of Bhagavan Sri Krishna, and he is the one who plants transcendental knowledge in the heart of the disciple; not the person who "officially initiates" the person and performs the ritual and ceremony.

 

In the case of Bipin Bihari Goswami, there is no evidence Prabhupada considered him to be the spiritual master of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Rather Prabhupada accepted Jagannatha Das Babaji as the one who "initiated" him.

if that is the case, does it mean that prior to meeting Jagannatha Das Babaji Bhaktivinoda Thakura had no transcendental knowlwdge?

as far as I know, Srila B.Thakura NEVER rejected his initiating guru, Bipin Bihari Goswami. he simply took very advanced siksa from Jagannatha Das Babaji, perhaps the most exulted Vaishnava of that time period.

if that is the case, does it mean that prior to meeting Jagannatha Das Babaji Bhaktivinoda Thakura had no transcendental knowlwdge?

Bhaktivinoda Thakur is a nitya siddha performing the lila of activing like a conditioned soul. It is impossible to know what was in his heart. The real point is what Prabhupada taught on the matter, and whether his books should be changed based on something he never taught.

The real point is what Prabhupada taught on the matter, and whether his books should be changed based on something he never taught.

I agree with you here and also dont see the need to change what SP wrote in that passage.

but the matter of initiations and disciplic succession is a far more complex subject. over the years the considerable fluidity of these matters in SP writings produced many misconceptions in our society.

That was me above... the system keeps logging me out

anyway... because of that fluidity in interpretation of initiation and disciplic succession, things like ritvikism gained foothold in our movement. people just take one statement from Srila Prabhupada and run with it where it suits them... they dont put it in historical perspective and dont verify it using the "guru, sadhu and shastra" principle.

Two huge mistakes are being reversed because the devotee community was willing to stand up to these authorities. First, they have forced the BBT to stop printing pronouns referring to Krsna or Radha as lowercase (he instead of He, and she instead of She). That mistake carried a philosophical blunder infavor of atheism. Now we have this other philosophical mistake from changing Srila PRabhupada's words.

This is why devotees need to speak up when they see these bad decisions. On their own the editors will never make the changes unless they hear the outcry from the devotee community. Keep up the pressure, keep up the good work.

Diksha to you is a ritual, but to Prabhupada it is the transfer of divine knowledge.

Here it is. And the Iskconites seem to be similarily confused.

Thakur Bhaktivinode said:

The souls of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyasa was assisted by Narada and Brahma. Our sastras, or in other words, books of thought do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. <strong>No book is without its errors.</strong>

Srila Jagannatha das Babaji was Thakur Bhaktivinode's siksa guru. It is factually wrong to say that Thakur Bhaktivinode was initiated by Srila Jagannatha das Babaji. If you preach Thakur Bhaktivinode was his diksa disciple you are preaching misconceptions - not Reality.

If you study the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur it become clear that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's primary connection with Sri Guru is with the Caitya Guru, not with Bipin Bihari or Srila Jagannatha das Babaji. This is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur taught and wrote. I will provide the quotes later, if you desire. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur is a nitya siddha and it is wrong to speak of him in the way one senior person writing on this thead has done.

Thakur Bhaktivinode:

As per the sayings of Narada Pancharatra, when the esoteric preceptor (caitya-guru) is manifested in the thousand petaled lotus over the head of the aspirant, the need for other preceptors remains no more. But until the manifestation of the Chaitya-Guru one has to enquire about the Reality from other preceptors, which is impearative. (Shri Tattva Sutram, commentary to verse 49)

Quote by guest

If you study the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur it become clear that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's primary connection with Sri Guru is with the Caitya Guru, not with Bipin Bihari or Srila Jagannatha das Babaji. This is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur taught and wrote. I will provide the quotes later, if you desire.

Could you please post some more Guest.

I was taught from BR Sridhara's Sri Guru and His Grace that the disciplic line in discussion is siksha not diksha. Is the word diksha being misused in regards to Jagannatha dasa Babaji and Bhaktivinoda Thakura in this thread or not? If so, is this distorting or minimising the concept of the siksa disciplic succession? I would like to know the truth of this, otherwise we may just grasp at ideas in this thread to suit our own agenda without being founded in correct knowledge..dangerous territory.

Also guest you may be able to answer another question: who did Bhaktivinoda receive Krsna Nama from. Was it Caitya Guru, Bipin Bihari, or Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji? Or all of the above.

Could you please leave a tag or name with your post, this would be helpful.

from guest:

"Srila Jagannatha das Babaji was Thakur Bhaktivinode's siksa guru. It is factually wrong to say that Thakur Bhaktivinode was initiated by Srila Jagannatha das Babaji."

But...

Bhagavad-gita 4.34

 

SYNONYMS

tat—that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi—try to understand; pranipatena—by approaching a spiritual master; pariprasnena—by submissive inquiries; sevaya—by the rendering of service; upadekshyanti—they will initiate; te—you; jnanam—into knowledge; jnaninah—the self-realized; tattva—of the truth; darsinah—seers.

 

TRANSLATION

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Could it not be that the initiation Bhaktivinode Thakur received from Jagannatha Babaji was one of substantial transcendental knowledge? Wouldn't a siksa line consider that the real intiation and connecting line?

quote theist Could it not be that the initiation Bhaktivinode Thakur received from Jagannatha Babaji was one of substantial transcendental knowledge? Wouldn't a siksa line consider that the real intiation and connecting line?

Yes.

In a talk from 1979 between Jaya Pataka Swami and Srila Sridhar Maharaj...

It is half in English and half in bangla....

Jayapataka: (Starts explaining/asking his question in bengali...from what I can make out by my very limited knowlege of Bengali he says: "In the months of june and July in 1977 Srila Prabhupada was in Vrndavan....in gaura Purnima of that year he had stopped giving diksha because he was no longer physically well enogh to do so...then in june july he appointed some ritviks..around this time [i don't know whether it was before or after the appointment of the ritviks] 5 or 8 boys from Bihar came and wanted diksha from him.

Jayapataka: (now speaking english) Prabhupada said to them "You are all my disciples...you are all very good boys....you are all my disciples" but he never gave them any mala or any new name.Then they all went back to their village and gave themselves mala and name.

Srila Guru Maharaja: (In english) Then he has accepted them, he gave admittion, now shiksha guru is necessary. When has accepted them direct, face to face, then they're direct disciple, now siksha guru is necessary to guide them in the details. Acceptance..acceptance is of more value (more value than actual formal initiation..I think this is what is being implied by Guru Maharaja)

Jayapataka: Thats what I thought...that those boys who actually went to him amd Prabhupada said "You are my sisya"..that that acceptance means that they are directly his disciple.(Jayapataka starts speaking in begali again here, I think he says - ...but those who did not go there to him those that remained in there village they are not in the same position)

Srila Guru Maharaja: (In bengali) Yes those that heard directly from Swami Maharaja's mouth, they were directly accepted by him (as his disciples) they got his recognition..but those that did not go to him and hear from him, they will have to go through the proper channel.

The talk goes on in bengali ...but then there is more english from Srila Guru Maharaja:

"Mantra is formal encouched expression but what is embodied there (in the mantra) that is to be opened (revealed) and that tattva jnana is not an easy thing or non important factor...REAL DIKSHA IS THERE in tattva jnana (in the revealing of what is there couched in the mantra..i.e. siksa is the important thing) Then Guru Maharaja (again in Bengali) talks about the jati Gosai giving "bifala mantras" ("fruitless mantras" or as in Sri Guru and his Grace "Dead mantras")..also I think he says how these Jati Gosai will give mantras but don't themselves know what is in that mantra (i.e can't give siksa sufficiently to make diksa fruitful...again pointing to the idea that siksha is the most important thing)

Jayapataka: Yes..that clears up the point.

Thank you Guest. This conversation makes a clear path of understanding. Very relevant to recent discussions on this forum. And enlightens my understanding.

Srila Guru Maharaja: (In bengali) Yes those that heard directly from Swami Maharaja's mouth, they were directly accepted by him (as his disciples) they got his recognition..but those that did not go to him and hear from him, they will have to go through the proper channel.

I undertand the full conversation except for the last sentence in this paragraph. What is..."but those that did not go to him and hear from him, they will have to go through the proper channel" actually mean. What process is this refering to?

Thank you for your time Guest, much appreciated.

If you go to Google and search for this

sridhar maharaj "proper channel"

you will find what Guru Maharaj means by "proper channel"

Look for the book "Home Comfort" which explains the Proper channel.

Jayadvaita Swami has said:

"The BBT decision to revert to the word 'initiated' in a passage of Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, was made in November 2004. The BBT had begun considering the matter in May 2003."

If this decision was actually made in 2004 and considered from 2003 itself, then why wasn't the change made when the Caitanya Caritamrita was printed again last year? I know the printing was done after this "decision" had been made as I was personally present in Shivakashi at Srinivasa Fine Arts printing company as the pages of the altered Caitanya Caritamrita came off the presses. Again the BBT editors have displayed their policy of speaking one thing and doing another just to pacify the public. They knew that the Caitanya Caritamrita wouldn't be printed again for many, many years. Yet they avoided correcting the change that they claim was considered as far back as 2003 and decided in 2004. They know that by the time the next printing of Caitanya Caritamrita will come up, years would have passed and most people would have forgotten the matter.

I thank Jayadvaita Swami for admitting that their sources for the change were not from Prabhupada's teachings. These books they are altering are Srila Prabhupada's books. Extraneous quotes from others have nothing to do with Srila Prabhupda's conclusions and should never be used for changing Prabhupada's teachings. Perhaps he can clarify if it is now BBT policy to change Srila Prabhupada's personal words based on lectures the editors hear or stumble across from the Gaudiya Matha? Are they now trying to correct Prabhupada's teachings based on all the conclusions found in the Gaudiya Matha?

Jayadvaita Swami cites Sridhar Maharaja for evidence that their conclusion is correct. Now that he is citing Sridhar Maharaja as his authority for changing Prabhupada's books, is he now willing to accept Sridhar Maharaja's conclusion on the fall of the Jiva? Or is his quote just an opportunistic scrambled search for some backing from somehwere, from anywhere? Of course he can't find any support in Prabhupada's own teachings, as Prabhupada has never taught that Bipin Bihari Goswami is the guru of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. It should be noted that in the literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of recorded words of Srila Prabhupada, not one single mention is made of Bipin Bihari Goswami. In Prabhupada's teachings he doesn't so much as place as a footnote in the history of Srila Prabhupada's parampara.

In 1919 Bipin Bihari Goswami had publicly rejected Bhaktivinoda Thakur as his disciple and published this in his newspaper "Gauranga-sevaka Patrika". He has also rejected the real birth place of Mahaprabhu, which was discovered by Bhaktivinoda Thakur and confirmed by Jagannatha Das Babaji, in favor of a fabricated site in Navadvipa. Neither Prabhupada nor Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur have included him in their parampara, nor have they given any importance to his influence on Bhaktivinoda Thakur through ritualistic initiation. It is only the caste goswamis who give importance to this link. Thus a teaching that concludes Bhaktivinoda Thakur already had his eternal diskha guru (who is nondifferent from Krishna) in the person of Bipin Bihari Goswami is certainly a deviation learned from the caste goswamis.