The Meaning of "Tatastha s'akti"?

gauragopala dasa · 07-12-2008, 10:37 PM

The Meaning of "Tatastha s'akti"?
BY: GAURAGOPALA DASA
Jul 12, USA (SUN) — The Article "Falling From the Spiritual World" by Abhay caran dasa and the comments by Radhavallabha dasa, humbly, appear to me as a complete misunderstanding of tatastha s'akti and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Can someone please tell me the real meaning of the word tatastha s'akti and the jiva soul's 'eternal' origin according to the devout teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

This is how I understand his teachings:

"So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva. Yes, I think I have understood this at least because Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that idea.

They have impersonally described tatastha to be our original state that is on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) but their understanding is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'present' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

The eternal present or the forever 'now' is found only in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka now even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

It is there in Goloka or Krsnaloka our perpetual identity, personality and individuality is endlessly serving beautiful Krishna as our perpetual 'svarupa' body (nitya siddha), even if we sometimes forget that fact and 'dream' or 'think' we are in the material world.

The paradox here is no one ever really leaves Goloka, they only dream, think and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' and entering the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva creation.

The only thing that has changed is one's awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness but rather a division of time, just like when the concept of mundane time changes while one is dreaming.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the eternal relationship they have with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state, that has entered the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu, then taking on the identity of one of His material bodily creations, never existed.

On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

It is important to REALIZE that Goloka is a pure devotional place where perpetual loving service to Krsna, happens within the 'eternal present', devoid of past, future, decay and bodily absentees - every living entity is represented there by their permanent 'svarupa' body (also known as the Siddha-jiva) who is them without beginning or end.

The material world, on the other hand, actually has NO 'present' at all; there is only past, future, decay, and impermanence.

The mahat-tattva is where the living entities can 'sub-consciously' project themselves and experience their own dreamed-up manifestation, created by their own thoughts and dreams.

This secondary consciousness, which cannot exist or be expressed in bodily form in Goloka, is called the baddha-jiva.
Entering the material world therefore, is not a change of bodies, but rather a change of consciousness where the baddha-jiva is given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu in the restricted realm of past and future where the repercussion is a universe that is perishable and temporary.

The 'eternal present' means exactly that, ones 'svarupa' body is always in Goloka even if one is dreaming they are in the mahat-tattva.

What is nitya baddha BODILESS consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather, a dormant state of bodiless consciousness the marginal living entities or souls, in the baddha-jiva condition, develop or attain, once they free themselves from the ethereal and biological material bodies, provided by Maha-Vishnu FROM within his mahat-tattva creation.

However, this place is also just a further dream state separate from the mahat-tattva the marginal living entity enters (as baddha-jiva dream manifestation), and is also a temporary state of consciousness one enters.

This motionless individual, inactive, dreamless, baddha-jiva consciousness within the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation)
.
This nitya-baddha inferior self, or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity, is actually a bodiless condition of the jiva until it is provided bodily form or a vessel for expressing their desires, provided by Maha Vishnu within his dream creation.

This nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to 'dream' of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada:
"There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like". "The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entity's secondary conscious projection is known as the baddha-jiva soul within the maha-tattva.

The marginal living entity actually has two aspects of consciousness; one is 'eternal form' of sat, cit, ananda, Vigraha or one's perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) that is imperishable and never fades away, due to being eternally established within the 'eternal present' of Goloka, while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming bodiless state (nitya-baddha).

The living entities, as their nitya-siddha body, are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy as a perpetual bodily servant that is known as one's perpetual 'Svarupa'.

When the marginal living entity misuses their independence and tries to act as enjoyers or lords, they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but rather, as a secondary dreaming consciousness called nitya-baddha.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

The living entities do not only belong to the marginal energy, they ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

Tatastha simply means the ability to choose the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the result of the jiva-tatastha executing its dormant free will to choose between Krsna and their own plans of existence.

When the baddha-jiva lower self enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, they can only enter the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord's internal energy in our 'svarupa' body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence.

This means we may choose to try and act as enjoyers or lords of all we purvey that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our 'svarupa' body, and instead try to lord it over Krishna's material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada:
"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream".Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all".

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

"You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)".Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Nothing is lost or regained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, ananda, VIGRAHA.

If there is no past or future and only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as one's eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination, so just as one's material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones 'svarupa' body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is locked and secured perpetually within the 'eternal present, which is an eternal state of originality' that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become 'aware' of their full potential 'svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been.

"We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada explains it this way: "There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained". "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

"You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay

"Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur:
"However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas." Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada:
"Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si-… That is called svarupa-siddhi. Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

Your fallen servant,
Gauragopala dasa ACBSP

Vigraha · 07-20-2008, 12:45 PM

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

“This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”.
4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

The full eternal potential of the living entity is ALWAYS nitya-siddha. However, the dream secondary sub-consciousness state of the living entity, activated when one is NOT Krishna Conscious, is called the jiva-baddha or nitya-baddha consciousness.

This is supported by the following comment from Srila Prabhupada -

Srila Prabhupada –“When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

Vigraha · 07-20-2008, 02:26 PM

Actually, You are in Goloka now, just realize it by looking within your own heart with personal prayer, serving the pure devotees and Chanting Hare Krsna

So what is the secondary nitya baddha consciousness and what relationship has it with the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes. It is also not some empty place or void, it is rather, a dormant state of bodiless consciousness the marginal living entities or souls develope in the baddha-jiva condition. It is a state of dormant dreamless consciousness they develop or attain due to austerity, achieved once they free themselves from the ethereal and biological material bodies, provided by Maha-Vishnu FROM within his mahat-tattva creation.

In fact, this state of individual consciousness we call the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is just a further dream state that is separated or liberated from the confines of the bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

The marginal living entity ‘consciously' develops their secondary baddha-jiva dream manifestation due to giving up being 'aware' of their Krsna Conscious nitya siddha body in Goloka.

However, the baddha-jiva can only develops an 'inactive' state of their consciousness only after being ‘active’ within the mahat tattva and fed up with expressing themselves through corresponding subtle (ethereal) and gross (secular) material vessels provided within the mahat tattva.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is just a further individual dream state separate from the mahat-tattva that the marginal living entity can ‘consciously’ further develop as an additional ‘imaginary reality’ their secondary baddha-jiva can further dream-up.

Even though this 'baddha jiva' consciousness is real and discribed as 10,000th the size of a tip of hair, it is actually a conscious projection state that enters the mahat tattva or later on becomes an individual spark of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary 'inactive' state of consciousness the sub conscious baddha jiva dream state imagines while forgetful of their their nitya siddha body serving their Lord and Master, Lord Krsna in Goloka.

Just as the marginal living entity projects an 'active' baddha jiva state, expressed through corresponding vessel provided within the mahat tattva. The baddha jiva can also project an ‘inactive’ individual consciousnessthat is actually non-different from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is made up of unlimited ‘dormant’ baddha-jivas all of whom have an ‘eternally original’ bodily form in Goloka

Once the baddha-jiva has achieved the difficult liberation from the mahat-tattva’s ethereal and biological vessels, and attained an unnatural motionless, inactive, dreamless, painless conscious state of a 'plain sheet of consciousness', that actually IS the impersonal state of their dormant Brahmajyoti consciousness, they foolishly believe is eternal and their origin.

They do not understand that this ‘dormant conscious state’ is also only temporary and that long, ago before that they were in the mahat tattva. And long, long, long before being in the mahat tattva, they were aware of their eternal bodily REAL self in Goloka.

So is is clearly explained here the baddha jiva will eventually fall from their inactive state of ‘impersonal Brahnajyoti consciousness’ and again can become active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation), provided with bodily vessels by Maha-Vishnu’s representatives.

This nitya-baddha inferior false self, or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity, is actually a bodiless condition of the jiva until it is provided bodily form or a vessel for expressing their desires, provided by Maha Vishnu within his dream creation.

This nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to 'dream' of self importance and indulgence that will immediately place their ‘awareness’ (not as their eternally situated Svarupa or nitya-siddha body), within the mahat tattva or material world.

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Svarupa · 07-22-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva.

Many today in 'Hinduism' follow that misunderstanding and it appears to me, they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe this impersonal dormant origin state of the jiva after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They claim the jiva’s originate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Claiming that within the brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal nonsense idea that the jiva springs into existence from a dormant 'plain sheet of consciousness'.

They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.

They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that foolishly and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva

It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka.

We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'.

This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.

EXCELLENT REALIZATION. Actually this knowledge cannot be learnt in some class, it only comes through realization

Virakrsna · 07-23-2008, 02:42 AM

Very interesting reading of the devotee's realizations on this difficult subject matter.

gauragopala dasa · 07-23-2008, 12:12 PM

The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy? Actually there is no argument with followers of Lord Caitanya. Just accept Prabhupada’s famous comments on the recording of the 1966 Hare Krishna Album.

His Divine Grace says – "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album 1966)

His Divine Grace further without a doubt says – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita on August 6, 1973

To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about what Prabhupada has already clearly explained to us, Srila Prabhupada gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit in a letter send to his Australian devotees in 1972.

I was personally there as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada when Madhudvisa 'Swami' received that letter that resulted from a debate that happened on our Travelling Hare Krsna Bus as we toured the nation in July 1972 preaching the message of Caitanya Maha Prabhu. Some devotees were saying we have come from the impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti. Some devotees had previously heard Siddhasvarupa ‘Swami’ also preaching this idea in New Zealand and they told devotees in Sydney.

Srila Prabhupada wrote and asked Siddhasvarupa ‘Swami’ not to preach such philosophy in his Temples and he no longer did preach that way. The same thing happened on the Travelling Bus in July of 72 with Madhudvisa ‘Swami and Caru dasa, (who was also on that Bus for a short time). Both had always preached we had all come down from Krsnaloka, but were also disturbed by this discussion. So this whole debate was presented to Prabhupada. In the letter he sent us, Prabhupada first explained our original position is in Goloka from where we ‘think we fall’, he rejected the idea with originated from ‘a bare expanse of inactive consciousness’ from the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada – “"Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Prabhupada explains this in other places also

Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. - Letter, June 13, 1970.

However, knowing that his young devotees might find such deep philosophy too difficult to understand, he then goes on and explains it in this simple way as the letter he sends to us all via Madhudvisa ‘Swami’ explains –

Srila Prabhupada – “On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing.

The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch… .

“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.

"Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”

“At the present moment you are in Maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”

Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic; just accept as I have taught about coming from Goloka and not the impersonal Brahmajyoti, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy”

In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness.

The following are the comments by His Divine Grace on our original position

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?" 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada's answer -"The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971.

Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream state they have created.

However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find it is ALL their dream ONLY EXPERIENCED by 'entering' unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu –

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes –

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

The fact is, our original bodily svarupa form is without beginning or end and always 'locked, sheltered and forever protected' within the realm of the ‘eternal present of Krsnaloka’, which makes our origin, eternally manifest and always in that state or moment of origin beyond the decaying effects of past and future..

In simply terms, we are always in Vaikuntha, right now we are there, but our dream of the material world is so powerful, we cannot see the TRUTH of this secret of all secrets.

The so-called 'origin of the jiva' is only realized from within our own hearts when we are free from material desires.

Kulapavana · 07-24-2008, 06:34 AM

It is completely clear that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta defines tatastha sakti differently than all of the above posts suggest:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely
pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity for
material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not
found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed
of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are
nevertheless present within him.

The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain
indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and nondevotional
propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from
his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the
physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the
dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a
little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a
neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by
impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the
impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to
neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the
quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In
this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and
establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Brahmana and Vaishnava,
Hari-jana-khanda, p. 86-87)

Jivas are of two kinds (1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free), (2). Nitya-baddha
(eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the
Supreme God in five different functions in His eternal blissful abode, where
there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there,
never comes back here.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Vaisnavism - Real and Apparent,
"The Bondage of the Jiva")

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His
eternal Abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are
emanations from His Tatastha-shakti found between the temporal and eternal
worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two
different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into
the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down
for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency.

(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Sri Caitanya's Teachings,
"Immanent and Transcendent")

gauragopala dasa · 07-24-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

It is completely clear that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta defines tatastha sakti differently than all of the above posts suggest:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely
pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.

And before that?

There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us that seems contradictory, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents' of no past or future, these things will be seen in another way as also explained by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature” Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

Srila Prabhupada - “Upon seeing the Visnudutas, Ajamila gave up his material body at Hardwar on the bank of the Ganges. He regained his original spiritual body, which was a body appropriate for an associate of the Lord”. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.2.43

The reason why all marginal living beings have an eternal bodily form is because they were ‘created’ within a dominion known as the ‘eternal present’ where every living entity in that realm are originally (without a beginning point) created as eternal persons with full bodily features.

This is the living entities ‘svarupa’ body that eternally and originally exists within that ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana as ever fresh, eternally in the stage of being new and original, an originality that is permanently, without beginning or end, secure in that realm of origin.

Even though our svarupa body, IS our original position, there is no beginning or end to that ‘original position’ because it is situated within the ‘eternal present’

This means technically they, like Krishna, were never actually created. This is because their real identities or eternal bodies, are all within the ‘eternal present’ of time and space, devoid of past and future within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka right now.

Within that unending Spritual World of Vaikuntha, all living entities are perpetually existing in a perpetual state of ORIGINALITY, which means they are always present there in ‘the eternal present’ without the concept of past and future as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, whom are the eternal servants of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna.

Therefore, ALL living entities were created as sat, chit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginningless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their innovative home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. We are all eternal, like Krishna Himself. Many things in the shastra is meant to convince the baddha-jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Krsnaloka.

There are so many things that Vedic sastra has told us that seems contradictory, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama (Krsnaloka), due to the 'eternal presents', of no past or future, these things will be seen in another way.

And what is that other way we will see thing that many say is inconceivable to understand?

The simple answer is, on that level or ‘seeing things in an other way’, is seeing that the material creation, of trillion upon trillions of years and life times, will appear no-more than a moment of dreaming in the material world once one ‘awakens’ and becomes aware of Krsnaloka and their service to Krsna.

Srila Prabhupada - “Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to Madhudvisa and devotee in Australia

As long as we all have selfish material desires to exploit the material world, this subject will always remain a mystery