Madhya writes>Satsanghers;

[Guest guest]

Madhya writes>Satsanghers;

With love and respect for you all, I take the opportunity to offer

further remarks regarding my position of support for those who choose

to invest significant periods of time in their lives for training,

pilgrimage, and other spiritual endeavors.

>I realize that I am being controversial, here, but I believe that

Americans have little patience for guru/teacher/ashram settings and

relationships that are so fundamental to all Buddhist traditions and

most Hindu traditions as well. I believe that certain qualities of

the Western mind-set may inhibit Westerners from coming to perceive

the variety of blessings that one can receive from pursuing prolonged

periods of spiritual training.

>It may also be that many of us who participate in these lists--not

all, of course--but many, possess a fairly independent world-view.

This is not a criticism, so please do not mistake my meaning, here.

I am only saying that asking list-participators for advice regarding

the matter of organized spiritual community and training may yield a

somewhat lopsided consensus regarding this issue.

>We do not consider training for years as lawyers, doctors or

accountants to be anything but appropriate. But Americans often tend

to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-realization,

is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. That is not going to

be a popular position, I realize.

>Anyway, I am very interested in your collective feelings regarding this

matter.

Madhya

 

~~~~

Madhya, I am glad you brought this up. When I first d to Jerry's

nondualitysalon I was sort of taken a back and really being a wet behind the

ear non duality contemplative you could say,I had forgotten or didn't

understand somethings basic to Hindu and Buddhist thought Which is simply

there are two schools of thought here Mahayana and Hyana.One is considered the

big Ferry boat the other the little Ferry boat . The two lines of thought

initially developed at least out of the ch'an or zen traditions......The

Northern school of gradual enlightenment and the southern school of sudden

enlightenment,with the southern quickly becoming the dominant school.Zen

reached its Golden age in the Tang and early Sung dynasties (roughly the

seventh through the twelfth centuries) and arrived in Japan about 1190 where

the house of Soto and Rinzai continue to flourish. I honestly don't know much

about Ramana and Nisgaradata Maharaja.This type of extreme nonduality wake up

to enlightenment now I simply understand as do what you can right now ,see

God every where right now or grasp the subtle Buddha nature now,you don't need

to do anything because there is nothing to do or nothing to gain. This is the

big ferry as I understand it. The little Ferry is you do the same thing except

you long for a Bigger Kensho or atr least you never say I have reached the

other shore becausse enlightenment is infinite.. The problem I have with

extreme nonduality is people can hypnotize them selves into being enlightened

but yet function out old programs,Old mechanical programs of the mind and

still be harming them selves and others What some of us are seeking in the

state of enlightenment or self realization is transformation which does take

place after much initial self observation at as a beginner or stream enterer

which I will probably always consider my self unless some big lights, (Extreme

knock out Kensho occurs.. As a beginner there is and illusion of pain as we

watch our assness as Anthony Demello puts it but this is the way of following

Christ and picking up ones own cross.. The emptiness is what we are seeking,We

are seeking to be emptied.Emptied of the self that doesnt even exist. All that

exist is a bundle of nerves,illusions and wandering desires. The more we empty

the more we become full.Enlightenment to me thus far is the realization that I

am alive and much of what I thought is me is simply my programs for

happiness,control,approval. I understand that there is no enlightenment with

out self knowledge and one has to literally be willing to go to hell to get to

Heaven and the only hell there is ,is the hell that I create all of which are

based in all these programs of fear,shame(pride) ,anger,lust,hate,envy and

sloth, Thats why they are called capitol sins in the christian tradition and

the worst one as far as I am concerned is shame. Shame paralyzes one. Guilt

doesn't. Guilt is what one comes up with from self observation Shame is the

big lie. I can;t say much more than this because I dont know any more but I

will say this... A twice daily meditation practice sitting 25 minutes at a

whack with mantra,sacred word and zazen and any and all methods of self

observation from Hindi,Buddhist,Christian, Sufi, Gurdjieff whatever and study

of scriptures and other spiritual reading material helps to bare the pains and

gives courage and mostly establishes me in Being,you can call it the true

self or God or Nothing. It just doesnt matter once you realize what and who

you are not. You just want to take responsibility for it and love from a

selfless place.

 

Again you say>>to believe that achieving Nondual consciousness, or Self-

realization,

is something for which no formal instruction or guidance is needed.

I sincerely do not believe this to be the case. I am not saying, of

course, that this is impossible. Only 99% so. <> Alan: I personal

believe and understand that one does intially need a teacher and the teacher

shows up to the depth of sincerity of the individual. Or as said when the

student is ready the teacher appears.I believe it was Ramana who also says we

move from truth to truth. So one may have many teachers and learn the many

gates or one may simply stay his/her entire life on one path. All are one all

return to Brahmin all are "I am".

I believe the Non duality folk whether they come from Tantra,Hermetic

Qabalah, Advaita etc etc are certainly helping out us little ferry boat folk

and in the same way we will be keeping your " Who am I" question from becoming

dull :-) Peace,Alan

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