Form and Formless

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

Lots of discussions on the above.

 

What is Form? Form is only a mental concept it has no significance beyond mind.

 

While Brahma is eternal, His Form(s) are not, He gets, discards Forms at his own will.

 

Same with Jiva who also gets Form(s) and discards , however the difference being Jiva with his limited energy can maintain only one Form at a time while Brahma can maintain infinite forms at the same time.

 

Also Jiva has only limited capacity to change the Form at his own will (except for Siddhas who can shrink, enlarge their Form)

 

So understand this and also realize that your own "Form" is also not eternal and don't cling it to as eternal, other wise you may become like some Abramic religions where they talk about Formless God and immediately left, right, top, bottom of that entity (of course the question how a formless entity can have left or right will be met with contempt, silence or threats)

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Spiritual Form.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

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Bhagavad-gita As It Is

by A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

www.vedabase.net

 

TRANSLATION Bg.2.12

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

 

TRANSLATION Bg.2.23

The soul can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can he be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.

 

PURPORT Extract

The Mayavadi, however, cannot describe how the individual soul evolved from ignorance and consequently became covered by illusory energy.

 

TRANSLATION Bg.2.24

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

 

TRANSLATION Bg.9.17

I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support, and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rk, the Sama, and the Yajur [Vedas].

 

TRANSLATION Bg.15.7

The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

 

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#1 God cannot be covered by Maya.

#2 God is always the same ETERNALLY.

#3 The Jivas or Parts are covered by Maya.

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is Download by

A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

According to scriptures, those who engage their spiritual knowledge to play around with their forms that is

-creating/destorying at will

-appearing dissapearing at will over 100s of years

-shrinking and enlarging their form

-transporting themselves and appearing themselves simultanously in different places

 

These people who engage in these games with their will after attaining spiritual knowledge, have already gone astray. They are too focused of their form and the obcession of other people with forms. So they become sort of control freaks of their form, appearence and illusive limited knowledge of people. Such siddhas are worse that ignorant people with no spiritual knowledge.

 

Such siddhas demonstrate, through their actions, a deeper passion to cling on to their form more than their spiritual self. Their focus on the physical form is so strong that they use spiritual knowledge to provide a sort-off-permanance to their physical form over periods of time. It's rooted from their lack of conviction that the spiritual self is immortal, universal, attributeless.

 

Only fools rever to such people doing wonders with their forms as great by some order. Such fools are in no way in a spiritual path. Such people may talk of Jiva as an existence limited by one physical form. The physical form is so irrelevant for the spiritual self that it doesn't matter what ever flexibility or limitations it offers. Physcial form is not for demonstrating miracles.

 

Physcial form is just to perform service based on its nature. Like honey bees making honey and being in bliss engaged in that service.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

You have to understand what the 'soul' is.

 

Knowing it is eternal, unchangeable, and conditioned is partial understanding. Now know what it actually is? The positive attribute. When you plant a seed into the ground a tree is manifested. In the same way the soul is concentrated 'spiritual form'.

[Sephiroth]

 

Hari OM

Lots of discussions on the above.

What is Form? Form is only a mental concept it has no significance beyond mind.

While Brahma is eternal, His Form(s) are not, He gets, discards Forms at his own will.

Same with Jiva who also gets Form(s) and discards , however the difference being Jiva with his limited energy can maintain only one Form at a time while Brahma can maintain infinite forms at the same time.

Also Jiva has only limited capacity to change the Form at his own will (except for Siddhas who can shrink, enlarge their Form)

So understand this and also realize that your own "Form" is also not eternal and don't cling it to as eternal, other wise you may become like some Abramic religions where they talk about Formless God and immediately left, right, top, bottom of that entity (of course the question how a formless entity can have left or right will be met with contempt, silence or threats)

Even names are forms, so don't say Abrahamic religions like Islam has no form.

Have you ever seen name Allah in the mosque's wall? What is that if not form which Muslims parade around?

IF you say "Formless" then true defination of "Formless" is - Spiritual realizations ONLY. You feel Him, know Him and Understand Him but CANNOT out those understanding, feeling and knowledge into words.

[Guest guest]

 

Even names are forms, so don't say Abrahamic religions like Islam has no form.

 

 

Hari OM

 

please be clear and logical in your postings, i can't understand your postings, either it is illogical or super logic way beyond my capacity

 

As per Yoga shastras, all entity have three factors --- name, form and attributes. Name is not form and form is not name.

 

All these three factors are stored in memory, like some kind of associative process, if you hear a name your mind knows the form and attribute of it and if you see the form you would know the other two factors.

 

But Brahaman is beyond the name, form and attribute (the sanskrit term for attribute is Guna and hence Brahman is called Nirguna, without attributes) and since mind does not know how to work in the absence of any one of the above three factors, it can't comphrend.

 

Now take the case of "Shepiroth" it is a name (real or imaginary) attached to "YOU(the entity)" for some time (100 year, 1 year or 1 hour..) while a form probably male, stout, bald-headed, boiling eyes...just kidding) attached again to "YOU(the entity)" for some time , and again attributes (kind, gentle, unassuming, ration.... just kidding) attached to "YOU(the entity)". All these are liable to change even within one life time and definitely will change across life times. The seperation of this knowledge would be the first step to entering into Yogic realm. For example it may be ok to tell in ordinary parlance that "Shepiroth is beautiful... just..." however in Yogic terms it becomes a logical error the correct statement would be like "Shepiroth is 9 letters long", "The form associated with the Entity having name Shepiroth looks beautiful" unless you can start thinking in clear, rational and unassuming ways we can't have a real discussion.

[Sephiroth]

All these three factors are stored in memory, like some kind of associative process, if you hear a name your mind knows the form and attribute of it and if you see the form you would know the other two factors.

Hmph ... You speak but you have no understanding of what you speak. In another words, you don't think very deeply on what you speak.

Let's assume that Name is association. By naming something, you associate the name to that attribute.

But Brahaman is beyond the name, form and attribute (the sanskrit term for attribute is Guna and hence Brahman is called Nirguna, without attributes) and since mind does not know how to work in the absence of any one of the above three factors, it can't comphrend.

Here, you only know the theory but don't know the application of what you suppose to learn.

Hindusm stated that Mind is an illusion - therefore, when a mind hears a name, it associate the name to a form. True?

Same goes for God. While it is true that God IS beyond Name, form and attributes (recognised by the Mind), the Mind (in its limits) can only associate it with what you know and understand. Therefore, Name is associated with God. Thus Name IS a Form which you give God, like it or not.

Now take the case of "Shepiroth" it is a name (real or imaginary) attached to "YOU(the entity)" for some time (100 year, 1 year or 1 hour..) while a form probably male, stout, bald-headed, boiling eyes...just kidding) attached again to "YOU(the entity)" for some time , and again attributes (kind, gentle, unassuming, ration.... just kidding) attached to "YOU(the entity)". All these are liable to change even within one life time and definitely will change across life times. The seperation of this knowledge would be the first step to entering into Yogic realm. For example it may be ok to tell in ordinary parlance that "Shepiroth is beautiful... just..." however in Yogic terms it becomes a logical error the correct statement would be like "Shepiroth is 9 letters long", "The form associated with the Entity having name Shepiroth looks beautiful" unless you can start thinking in clear, rational and unassuming ways we can't have a real discussion.

IF my existence based on my nickname, Sephiroth, then you could say I have existed for over 2,000 years.

There is nothing wrong with associating Name with Attributes. I don't see why it is a crime to associate names with a certain Attributes.

For example, in Maths :

A = 5

X + A = 10

A is already 5 so by associating A and the end value, you get value of X. Same here. By stating a name which links to an Attribute and by understanding what is happening overall, you can deprive (if not a full explaination) on what going on.

[Guest guest]

Mind is the center point of all ego. It's always seperating you from the rest of the world.

 

Spiritual self is different from mind. It's beyond the mind. It's more quite & several times more dynamic than the mind. The spiritual self can control the mind post the spiritual experience with continous nourishing. Else the notorious mind can even erode the experience of spiritual self. Spiritual self unites you with the rest of the world and god's creation as one.

 

Mind is the path of pain. Spiritual self is the path of knowledge.

[Guest guest]

Hari OM

 

It is not that Maya keeps enslaved you, rather it is your (attachment) mind that keeps you bonded (It is like i am holding you tightly and shouting at you to release me)

 

What is the cause of attachment (and its prime cause ignorance?)

 

There seems to be many answers for this:

 

1) Jiva is inherently ignorant and sheds ignorance only by effort (like saying dark is the real nature which is removed by light)

 

2) Jiva is inherently enlightened but becomes ignorant by maya (light is the real nature which gets covered by dark)

 

3) God tricks Jiva into becoming ignorant

 

4) Ignorant is natural process of loss of memory with time and state, like a baby is completely ignorant of what it was before the birth, the Jiva becomes ignorant what he was before manifestation

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

3) God tricks Jiva into becoming ignorant

???

Please quote scripture. Bhagavad-gita it says we are 'Parts of God' -Eternal Parts. And we cannot merge. Anyway everything I wanted to say I have said above for all. So I don't want to repeat what I said over and over again.

[Guest guest]

 

???

Please quote scripture. Bhagavad-gita it says we are 'Parts of God' -Eternal Parts. And we cannot merge. Anyway everything I wanted to say I have said above for all. So I don't want to repeat what I said over and over again.

Hari OM

 

Maha-Narayana Upanishad:

 

When a baby leaves the womb to enter this world, Narayana casts his spell on it by which the baby becomes ignorant of everything, if this does not happen, ignorance does can't engufl jiva.

 

Whatever i had "said" is simply a repetation of whatever is "said" by some body else and read by me, so i have no problem of repeating it again and again, as long as anybody is interested to read it.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Yes Thankyou. You repeated exactly. You are Jiva and we are All Jivas. Only God is Supreme. Haribol.