is there eternal hell fire for the unsaved?

[Guest guest]

The all- merciful Lord transcends way beyond His judiscial law of karmic reaction, or justice that his servitor Yamaraj enforces.

"For one who truly loves God will cruise thru the dark shadows of the deep valleys of death and fear no evil, for the Lord art our shepherd or in our case cowherd," and Yamaraj altho awsome is not to be feared, rather we should bow to his laborious service and we may just receive his favourable smile.

The devotee of Krsna doesn't even eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, rather their fruit is all offered to Krsna that is bhakti. And that fruit is real Mercy ...prasadam.. Gods grace.

When one is absorbed in the praises of the Lords holy sweet Names, they will see no hell, hear no hell, or speak no hell. For it pollutes your consciousness with that which is other than Krsna Govinda Rama katha try to see Gods' grace in every atom for there is no place He isn't.

And God is drawn to embrace those who in true humility feel they are most fallen who feel they are bereft of that Prema. Not the most elevated who see all others as heathens, infidels, unbelievers and cursed unsaved wretches going to hell.

 

Hey Matadevi do tell, where did you aquire your name if it is yours?

[theist 1]

http://www.seejesuschrist.net/

 

I've just read the heading which shows there are other Christians who believe differently.

 

 

How do you see Jesus Christ? As a stern judge who condemns people to suffer forever in hell for unrepented sins and incorrect religious beliefs, or a loving Savior who will do anything necessary to redeem all souls and reunite us with God? Who is the real Jesus Christ? This website is devoted to showing people who Jesus really is -- the perfect representative of our Heavenly Father's unconditional love -- and destroying the false images of Jesus that keep many Christians in bondage to fear of an angry god.

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

<blockquote>

matadevi, Kulapavanna's answer is also my answer. You are trying to motivate us to accept Christ under the fear of hell. While vaisnava's are busy to learn unmotivated loving service to the Lord.

</blockquote>

 

Yes.

 

[jagatpurush 0]

my question is, if you go to heaven, do you go at the time of death or at some later time of judgment, such as judgment day?

 

thanks, jpd

[Guest guest]

Also this too by Theist prabhu is very true.

 

"Christ was not a salvationist but modern Christians are only that it seems. Vaisnava's love God because they love God. He is all-attractive so their minds are entranced upon Him. Not because He will save them from hell."

 

The Vaisnavas mood inspired by that of the Gopis of Vrndavan is one of unconditional loving service, asking nothing in return, not even liberation, our existence is not for the Lord to serve us but everything is meant for the service of his servitors and His pleasure.

 

Appreciation or gratitude for His endless gifts of food nourishment, progeny, beautiful partners, property, success in ones profession, wisdom, health, etc. is all very well if they are all connected to the will of God, but the boons and requests seem to never end.

Dependance on Him is better than no recognition at all, but is really only the beginning of surrender in spiritual life. For real salvation or liberation begins in the properly adjusted attitude exihibited by the Vaisnavas headed by Lord Gaurangas' perfect example.

What do we do with our freedom? Enjoy it for ourselves! Asking for better and better playgrounds like the Demigods, living in apprehention of losing it through misapropriation of such benedictions.

No, using God as an order supplier of our every prayer is the inverse attitude of Bhakti and will ultimately keep us from the transcendental world. It is actually ego-centric and not God-centric, a false notion that we are somehow near and dear to God, saved, favoured, pleasing to Him.

Yet how much of our waking consciousness is dedicated to those activities that are pleasing to Him, not just praying or thinking of God but actully being practicly engaged in the day to day pleasures that that God delights in.

Knowing what is most pleasing to His sweet will, and doing that, every waking moment of our souls life.

So in the Krsna conception we are so very fortunate to realize Krsna as the supreme enjoyer and that we are merely instruments to be engaged in his pleasure in so many variagated forms. Not that he is a punisher metering out sentence after sentence to His subjugated slaves. Then every so often one calls for freedom from the pits of hell.

We could never measure his mercy and infinite concern for the welfare of his misdirected jivas, sending and empowering acarya after acharya in search of those lost servants.

Yes we are trying to adore His beauty, and our adoration is one form of His pleasure. And then the devotee is constantly working to find ever new ways of enhancing that beauty and presenting it for others to taste and share, to bring His attractiveness into the environment for all to serve.

To bring true understanding of His will and ways for others to appreciate and engage in that same adoration.

He is not a mystery that if seen, no man liveth, true perhaps our false self will die, but only to live in His consciousness here or hereafter.

So let us aspire to serve those beautiful arrangements of Gods presence and endeavour to give this most dignified Gaudiya conception to all, for the supreme benefit of humankind.

 

[krsna 3]

 

 

[The jailer]

"brought them out, and said,

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

 

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,

and thou shalt be saved,

and thy house"

 

(Acts 16:30-31)

[matadevi 0]

to kulapavana , prabhuji, it was the apostle pauls prayer and fervent desire to be away from this world and be with Jesus not away from hell, he accepted God's mission to preach the gospel to as many people as possible to ...yes..sorry you have to hear this! from the second death which is the lake of fire...Jesus paid the penalty for the vaishnava as well as the heathen!!!

[matadevi 0]

The workers of iniquity are not meat eating christians that love Jesus and preach there is no other way, no, not at all! Read Romans where paul says the eater of plants and the eater of meat stand before God as equals. God wants to save the human race in total not add burdens that many cannot lift.

 

And Christ loka is going to be the earth, have you not read in the beatitudes also known as the sermon on the mount where The Christ says'' The meek shall inherit the earth?''

 

finally, the worker of inquity is the false prophet who leads astray from the true gospel and encourages others to sin or steals from the poor, not people that eat meat! sorry God is more interested in preventing you from encountering the day of wrath which is to come.

 

God wouldn't spare his own son to save you! is there any greater love than this?....non sense? " I could on legions of angels to deliver me, and my Father would send them readily, but i have come for this purpose'' he gave his life as a ransom for many! yes , theist prabhu this includes you!

[matadevi 0]

The greeks are so close to the east that it is no wonder their ancient civilization is from the east , yes the early greeks are from asia minor, or modern day turkey which is asia after all. there is nothing wrong with chanting on beads to be more Christ conscious , but Christ didn't push chanting on beads ..he said to pray always, this is constant ,personal, contact with a loving Father, Abba, the apostle paul calls him Abba, which translated is actually closer to ''daddy''! do you want more personal?you become conscious of the true God trough prayer, not repetitive chanting as the heathen do...sorry. Jesus's words not mine. He prayed ''Our Father in art in Heaven , Hallowed be thy name , thy Kingdom come , thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses,as we forgive those who trespass against us , and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, for thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory for ever and ever amen.''

 

he, Jesus, says don't chant repetively as the heathen do thinking that with their many words God will hear them, he already knows what you desire and what you are thinking.

 

Hell fire is something to avoid and it is through Jesus that we can escape the second death.

 

no, not an immature thing, a fully furnaced place, that wasn't even meant for the human race! so, don't go there!

[Guest guest]

>on the western end of asia is the belief in ressurection and judgement culminating on the last day. when the human family is judged by the Alpha-Omega, the I AM, Adonai Elohim or Yahaveh Jehovah Jira who will judge the quick and the dead living and non living, all brought back to life to be judged, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim believe in the last day and standing before an Holy God.

 

ok but, what exactly happens on this supposed 'last day'? what are the quotes? let's discuss it. you will have to back up your points.

 

thanks, j

[muralidhar_das 0]

Mataji,

 

You started out by asking, what if the prophesies of the Bible about hell and Jesus are true. But then, what if the things written in "the Bible" are untrue?

 

What if the modern day Bible is a book that was fabricated from "politically correct texts" by servants of the Roman emporer Constantine who had gathered at the assembly of Bishops convened as a church council in the city of Nicea in the year 325?

 

What if "Christianity" is really a fusion of religious ideas, many of which arose from the pagan religion of Mithraism?

 

 

Mithra was a character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah and a solar deity. His religion was founded in the 6th century BCE, six hundred years before Christ was born. Mithraism was one of the most popular religions in the Roman Empire, especially among soldiers and civil servants. Mithra was believed to have been born of a virgin on the 25th December. He was visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his twelve disciples[?]. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame and so on. Symbols associated with Mithra were a lion and a lamb. He held a last supper, was killed and buried in a rock tomb. He rose again three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa 21st March. Later he ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to later Christian rituals.

 

Many people who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans.

 

Indeed, St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did.

 

 

[matadevi 0]

The Lord Jesus Christ said ''Father if you will , let this cup pass from me , but not my will , but thy will be done.''

 

Why would Abba Hashem, who is blessed forever!, allow his pure devotee to die? you say he had nothing to do with it?

why then did Jesus , when in the garden of gethsemane, about to be captured by the preatorian roman legions , say he could" Call on ten thousand legions of angels and my Father would send them readily'' The Father allowed his Son Jesus to die for our sins!

[matadevi 0]

and i saw a great white throne and him who sat on it , from whose face the earth and heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. and i saw the dead , small and great ; stand before God. (in other words it will be just we, the human race ,resurrected and with an audience with God to be judged alone) and the books were opened,: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire, (the earthen graves and the temporary hell known as hades where human souls waited for this last day!) This is the second death(First death is physical and the second death is spiritual) and those whose names were not written in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world were cast into the lake of fire"

[matadevi 0]

The dead sea scrolls prove that! a large part of the bible are the dead sea scrolls and they are thousands of years old. besides mithra worship was acceptable in pagan rome, as long as you worship the emperor or the caesar, you could worship as you please. Christians were persecuted and killed for worshiping the good shepard Christ, and not the bull god mithra!

[theist 1]

 

The Lord Jesus Christ said ''Father if you will , let this cup pass from me , but not my will , but thy will be done.''

 

 

Yes. He gave the example of what being a true Christian entails. Not my will but thy will be done. The same lesson was given to Arjuna and from Arjuna to us. He wanted to leave the battlefield but Krsna wanted him to fight, so he fought.

 

 

Why would Abba Hashem, who is blessed forever!, allow his pure devotee to die?

 

 

 

They never die! Jesus taught us how to die to live. Pure devotees only live. Die to the will of the small self and live for the will of the Supreme Self.

 

 

you say he had nothing to do with it?

 

 

I said no such thing. Jesus could have said no in Gethsemane just as Arjuna was asked by Krsna to deliberate on what he had do and then to do what he wished. Free will is integral to the spiritself.

 

 

 

The Father allowed his Son Jesus to die for our sins!

 

 

I don't accept the idea that God's wrath had to be pacified and no one could do except one that was perfect so Jesus became the sacrificial lamb to please God. What kind of God requires the death of His son to calm His anger?

 

Yes Jesus suffered much for the world's sake. And when an authorized devotee agrees to bestow rebirth upon a soul, giving them a fresh start he can absorb their sinful reactions.

 

This is nothing to rejoice about but rather we should be humbled and filled with shame that we have made it necessary for Christ to come here and suffer for us. Most so-called Christians are just happy with that part and forget certain other things Christ said.

 

Remember the woman that the religious fanatics of the day wanted to stone for committing adultry? What did Jesus tell her? "Go your way and sin no more." Many Christians think that now they have a license to live as *they* please because Jesus has already suffered on their behalf. But that is opposite the lesson of the crucifixation., "Not my will, but Thy will be done."The ONLY way a Christian wants to live is in a manner pleasing to the Lord.

 

And what did Jesus say? "Pick up YOUR cross and follow Me."

 

Now when we consider the implications of that seriously then we start to understand Christianity.

 

This dancing around the cross of Christ all happy happy like because "Jesus died for me" when not properly understood is quite offensive to Lord Jesus Christ.

 

They say there are a billion Christians on the Earth. I doubt if there are five. I know I don't measure up.

[muralidhar_das 0]

<blockquote>matadevi wrote:

the bible is older than the nicean councel of 325!

</blockquote>

This is untrue. At the time of the congress at Nicea there was no 'bible', just a lose assemblage of writings on papyrus reed paper, scrolls, sheep skin documents and tablets.

 

The 27 books of the New Testament that most Christian groups today accept were assemled as "the Bible" in 367 by a man named Athanasius. This happened after the congress at Nicea. Many texts that the Bishops regarded as unacceptable for various reasons were left out of the Bible.

 

But then outside the Roman Empire there were churches that accepted different books in their "Canon". The largest Bible today is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books. Among these is the Book of Enoch, which talks about how some types of demons are reborn again and again through reincarnation. Enoch also describes the Sun and Moon as living beings, gods. The concept that the planets have an influence on our lives (astrology) is also described in Enoch.

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

Matadevi,

where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was born on December 25 (christmas day)?

 

I know the answer. It isn't written anywhere.

 

The idea that the "saviour god" was born on December 25 is something borrowed from Mithraism.

 

And where does it say that Jesus was born from a virgin, his mother Mary?

 

Again, this is nowhere in the bible. Again, this idea is simply an idea that was taken from Mithraism.

 

Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday should be regarded as the sabbath? The Jews always regarded Saturday as the sabbath, and, once again, there is nothing in the Bible to say that Sunday should be the sabbath. But Sunday was the sabbath for followers of Mithraism, since Mithra is a sun-god type deity.

 

And again, may I ask, what is the origin of the "halo" that we see in Christian paintings. The "halo" is not mentioned in the Bible either, is it? The holy ghost came down upon people's heads like a flame, but that flame is not described as circular in the Bible. The circle of the "halo" was symbolic of the sun, and once again, it is something that was in Mithraism and which was brought into Christian belief from Mithraism.

 

According to Mithraism, Mithra was called the son of God, was born of a virgin, had disciples, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven. And the followers of Mithraism believed in these doctrines BEFORE CHRIST WAS BORN. They didn't copy these ideas from the Christians. Really, it was the other way around.

 

Mataji, what proof or evidence do you have, that Christianity didn't borrow the ideas of crucifixion, resurrection and all the rest from Mithraism? You have your faith, but what is the basis of your faith? The Bible? The Bible that the Roman Emporer Constantine fabricated? Sorry if I seem a little forceful in what I'm saying, but truly I feel that the religion of Christianity is a hoax.

 

 

[theist 1]

 

And Christ loka is going to be the earth, have you not read in the beatitudes also known as the sermon on the mount where The Christ says'' The meek shall inherit the earth?''

 

 

Jesus told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them. That in his Fathers house were many mansions.

 

This earth is a temporary place. The Hare Krsna's also expect a Golden Age of God consciousness to last 10,000 years.

 

The earth can certainly become "spiritualized" when man learns first Who it belongs to and for Whose pleasure it exists. Not until then I feel.

[theist 1]

 

finally, the worker of inquity is the false prophet who leads astray from the true gospel and encourages others to sin or steals from the poor, not people that eat meat! sorry God is more interested in preventing you from encountering the day of wrath which is to come.

 

 

We don't care what you eat. We do object to the torture and slaughter meat eaters are inflicting on God's helpless animals. They should not have their lives stolen from them in this viscious way.

[theist 1]

 

he, Jesus, says don't chant repetively as the heathen do thinking that with their many words God will hear them, he already knows what you desire and what you are thinking.

 

 

You are trying to use his teaching to say he is opposed to chanting God's names. That is quite absurd. What Jesus was talking of is praying for useless things or faithlessly. Like someone who pays every morning for God to make them rich. That is a vain prayer. It is also faithless because they think by repetitively asking God for money they are more likely to get it.

 

You are a intelligent woman but I fear you have taken to less then desirable association. Careful who you hear from, false prophets may be closer than you think.

 

The names of God are never vain but our motives in repeating them may be. So the devotee wants to learn how to chant in the correct motive, that is to please Krsna. Most practictioners who chant daily are still hoping to one day chant one suddha-nama, or the pure name of God. God's name is always pure so what does that mean? To chant from a one pointed fixation on the Lord and with a heart filled with pure love. Until then we are chanting a shadow or reflection of the name.

 

 

Choose any name you like. But never consider the name of Christ or the Father as something vain. That is an offense.

 

For example in Christian worship services they praise the name of Jesus Christ many times over and over. At what point do you consider such worship of the Lord's name as vain?

[muralidhar_das 0]

Mataji said:<blockquote>

the bible is older than the nicean councel of 325!

 

The dead sea scrolls prove that! a large part of the bible are the dead sea scrolls and they are thousands of years old. besides mithra worship was acceptable in pagan rome, as long as you worship the emperor or the caesar, you could worship as you please. Christians were persecuted and killed for worshiping the good shepard Christ, and not the bull god mithra!

</blockquote>

 

This is really absurd, Mataji. Texts such as the book of Enoch have been found among the dead sea scrolls, but there are no scrolls that mention Jesus or his followers. There are references to baptism and a wandering preacher, but from the descriptions in the scrolls it is clear that this person is not presenting the same teachings as the Jesus in the New Testament. He was preaching about "purity" and Jewish rules of cleanliness.

 

Further, the main reason that Constantine arranged for the council of nicea was so that he could get the bishops to work out a unified doctrine, so that they could begin a persecution of the heretic Arians.

 

What was the principal thing that the Christians hated about Arianism? The Arians said that Jesus was a man, not God. And for this they were persecuted by the Christians and the Romans. In fact, Christians have persecuted and executed many millions of people who have the audacity to say that Jesus was a man, not God. Indeed, Mohammed said that Jesus was a man, not God.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Texts such as the book of Enoch have been found among the dead sea scrolls, but there are no scrolls that mention Jesus or his followers.

 

 

The dead sea scrolls or the library of Qumran date back to ~20 bc. There is no mention of Jesus or anything specific to christianity. Rather these records are about the beliefs and time that eventually gave birth to christianity.

 

--

 

 

[muralidhar_das 0]

<blockquote>

He (Abba Hashem) is going to allow his beloved Son Jesus , or Y'shua for you jewish folks, be crushed on a tree for our iniquities. get it?? His blood was spilled to pay for our , your and mine, iniquitous sins, and all of upanishads and vedas and gurus in disciplic succession can't save you from your sin nature that is head long on it's way to eternal death!!!

</blockquote>

 

This is so stupid. All I can do is laugh at your foolishness, and hope that in the future you will open your eyes and see that you believe in a bad religion.

 

The idea that God arranged a human sacrifice (Jesus crucifixion) to atone for the sins of mankind is stupid.

 

The question arises, if God is all knowing and all powerful then why did he plan the whole Adam & Eve & the serpent episode, and then the crucifixion of Christ? Clearly, (if you believe in this myth and the logic it presents), it was God's choice that Jesus should be crucified. Jesus was crucified because God wanted that to happen. He was killed because it was the plan of the Almighty, and not because of some "sins" that were needing to be abolved.

 

The idea that there was somehow some sort of absolving of humankind's sins by this act of atonement raises this question from the Vaishnava Acharya Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: why did God have to orchestrate this strange series of events whereby humankind would be saved? Why didn't God (who is supposed to be all powerful) simply think "I absolve them from sin", and have humankind freed from sin by that.

 

If it were true that God needed to have this human sacrifice perpetrated, then this God must be a very strange, inhumane being. This sort of God is not a good person at all, but rather someone satanic in my opinion.

 

And by the way, Muslims don't believe that Jesus was crucified at all. In the Qur'an, it states that the crucifixion did not take place and Jesus was neither killed nor died on the cross. He just ascended to heaven to be with God.

 

Mithraism is probably the source of this crucifixion myth. But myths have a tendency to endure, long after the people who dreamed them up have died and gone from this world.

 

I choose to believe in the living God, Sri Krishna Chaitanya, who appeared in Nabadwip 500 years ago, in order to save not just mankind but even the animals and trees from their karma and from bad religion. Believe what you like, mataji, but I know that Sri Krishna Chaitanya really existed and that he is a Divine Being. Whereas the loony Fundamentalists only have a mythology, and Mithraism, as the basis of their belief system.

[theist 1]

matadevi,

 

Just for the record Muralidhar's view is rather different from that of Bhaktivedanta Swami who often cited Jesus's forgiveness from the cross of those that had crucified him as exemplary of the pure devotee.

 

Muralidhar, I am wondering how lieteraly you accept the Varaha incarnation of Vishnu and the whole falling of the earth planet into the universal ocean? Also a myth?

[Guest guest]

Whatever the validity or source of the Bible or any scriptures for that matter. If they have the potency to change the soul from a lover of matter to a real lover of God not just a sentimental believer, then that is of some value.

We have to ask ourselves if our teachings and teachers are cultivating love for others or just arrogance that we are connected to divinity while others are just deluded infidels lost in the hell of their own ignorance.

We have to consider that The Lord can speak thru a prostitute, a pillar, from the mouths of babes, a burning bush, or beautiful vision in the heart or outside of us.

Beware to entertain strangers for they may have entertained angels or even God unbeknown to themselves or us.

 

We may sincerely wish to help others by shareing our understanding and realizations but perhaps we can't see the way in which we go about it could do the opposite.