Bhakti Caru Svami Initiation Ceremony Lecture in Mauritius

[krsna 3]

Bhakti Caru Svami: Hare Krsna. Today we are going to conduct an initiation ceremony. I am coming to Mauritius after three years. There are quite a few candidates for initiation, and I was actually wondering that at least for 3 years I did not have contact with most of you. But still I am giving initiation. Some time back when devotees from Mauritius were writing to me and asking for initiation, my general response was, "I am not going to give initiation. When I can't guide the devotees, when I can't give siksa, then what is the point in giving diksa?" That was my general feeling. But after I came here, I started to meet the devotees and I see how eagerly you are trying to make spiritual advancement, and with many of you I have a long-standing relationship, and so I find it difficult to say that I am not going to give initiation.[haribol.] so I have decided to give initiation with 2 considerations. The 1st consideration is that I have to come here more often.[haribol] I already decided that this year I'll come at least once again.[haribol]

 

The 2nd consideration is that when you take initiation, you are not only developing a relationship with me. You are actually developing a relationship with the entire society of ISKCON. You are becoming a part of a family. This International Society for Krsna Consciousness has its' temples, its' line of authority, and on top of everything and everyone there is Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada has actually made the perfect arrangement through ISKCON, through his books, and through all the other arrangements that His Divine Grace has made. So if anyone takes shelter of this arrangement of Srila Prabhupada, he will undoubtedly make spiritual advancement and will eventually go back home, back to Godhead. So even though you may not have an ongoing regular relationship or connection with me, still your spiritual life is safe as long as you remain in ISKCON. If you remain within ISKCON, you will be under the protection of Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet.To remain in ISKCON means to be connected to the temple, to be favorably disposed to the devotees as well as to the authority structure of ISKCON, namely the temples, the temple devotees, the temple president, and the senior devotees of this area, the GBC, and other gurus.

 

And what do all of them do? They are teaching what Srila Prabhupada gave in his books. In ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada's books are the basis. Whatever we do in ISKCON is simply following Srila Prabhupada's books. If we do something that is a little doubtful, then what do we do? We question, "Is it in Srila Prabhupada's books?" And if it is not in Srila Prabhupada's books, then it is not bonafide. That is a very clear conclusion that we have. In this way, Srila Prabhupada's books are the basis. Srila Prabhupada's temples are the units, and Srila Prabhupada's devotees are the Vaisnavas who are our shelter. So always remember that through this initiation you are not only developing a relationship with me, but you are actually developing a relationship with the entire society of ISKCON. Actually, it's not that you are GOING to develop a relationship with ISKCON; you have ALREADY developed a relationship with ISKCON. You are a part of ISKCON. As a matter of fact, before you got to know me, you got to know ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. So ISKCON is actually the most important factor for our spiritual advancement.

 

In normal conditions, previously, the guru used to have an asram. If somebody wanted to take initiation from that guru, he would go and stay in that asram and he would live with the guru. The guru would watch the disciple and the disciple would also get association and guidance from the guru. In that way, one can say that the disciple's spiritual life was solely dependent upon his guru. But in ISKCON we have a different scenario. For example, I am giving initiation here. But ISKCON is not my asram. ISKCON is actually Srila Prabhupada's asram. Srila Prabhupada created this International Society for Krsna Consciousness. I have inherited it as much as you all have inherited it. Srila Prabhupada is still there. He has become aprakata. We are not able to see him, but it is not that he is not here. Through his vani, through his instructions, through his books, through his institution Srila Prabhupada is still present. So we are all getting the shelter of Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON. And as a spiritual master, what am I doing? I am simply representing Srila Prabhupada. In Srila Prabhupada's asram, on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, I am trying to help you in you spiritual life because you decided me to accept me as your guide. But it is not that I am the only guide in ISKCON.

 

Everyone in a senior position, everyone in a position of authority, is a guide. The more you take shelter and advantage of the senior association and guidance, the more you will benefit. It is not that we are creating different groups. The gurus are not creating different groups. It is not that there is one group with one guru and his disciples and another group with that guru and his disciples. It's not that there is Bhakti Charu Swami's group and another guru's group. No; that is not what ISKCON should be like. We must understand that ISKCON is one family, Srila Prabhupada's family. Yes, we belong to one group; that is Srila Prabhupada's group. We all are Prabhupadanugas; we are Prabhupadas's followers. And ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada's asram. As the founder-acarya, Srila Prabhupada is the pre-eminent siksa-guru of everyone in ISKCON.

 

And mind you, our line, our disciplic succession, is not actually a diksa parampara. It is a siksa parampara. For example, how do we draw the line? Srila Prabhupada's spiritual master is Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Thakura's spiritual master is Srila Gaura Kisoredas babaji Maharaja. Who is Gaura Kisore das babaji Maharaja's spiritual master? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Was Srila Gaura Kisore das babaji Maharaja Bhaktivinoda Thakura's diksa disciple? Yes or no? How many of you know? He was not a diksa disciple of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Then, beyond Bhaktivinoda Thakura, look at the altar, who is there? Jagannatha das babaji Maharaja. Was Bhaktivinoda Thakura Jagannatha das babaji Maharaja's diksa disciple? No. Then the line goes from Jagannatha das babaji Maharaja to Baladeva Vidyabhusana. Was Baladeva Vidyabhusana the diksa guru of Jagannatha das babaji Maharaja? No. So what does it mean? How is this line, this disciplic succession, established? It is a siksa parampara. This indicates that in our line, siksa is more important than diksa. And in ISKCON, who is everyone's siksa-guru? Srila Prabhupada. Is it just a sentimental thing? No; Srila Prabhupada's books are the basis.

 

Every morning we give Srimad Bhagavatam class from Srila Prabhupada's books, reading Srila Prabhupada's purports. The same goes with the Bhagavad Gita class in the evening. Everything that we do is according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings. So Srila Prabhupada is everyone's siksa-guru in ISKCON. And that is a GBC law also. Srila Prabhupada is the pre-eminent siksa-guru. "Pre-eminent" means the most important. He is the most important siksa-guru for all devotees of ISKCON for all times, not only now, but always. Ten thousand years from today, Srila Prabhupada will be the THE siksa-guru of all the devotees who will join ISKCON. So today I will request you to have this understanding very clear at the time of initiation. What is happening through this initiation? Through initiation you are becoming officially recognized as a member of the ISKCON family. That is what is happening. You are officially becoming recognized as Srila Prabhupada's grand-disciples. You belong to Srila Prabhupada's family. This is the specialty about this initiation. I wanted to make this point very clear.

 

Now, one may question, "Why take diksa? I can just join ISKCON and follow Srila Prabhupada's teachings and continue to render devotional service. In that way I can become a member of ISKCON?" Many of you, for example, have been serving in ISKCON for many, many years. Rajarama, for how many years have you been serving? More than ten years. And you? Seven. Eight. Rajesh, how many? Twenty years. A very senior new bhakta. Today, we will probably loose the most senior bhakta.[laughter.]In this way, so many of you have been connected to ISKCON for so many years as members. So what is the need of initiation? The need for initiation, or diksa, is there in order to officially surrender. You may join ISKCON, but the process of spiritual life is based on surrender. Sarva dharman parityajya, Mam ekam saranam vraja. So Krsna is asking to surrender. But the way to surrender is through Krsna's representative. And the spiritual master is a representative of Krsna to whom you are surrendering.

 

Does it mean that you are only going to surrender to Krsna's representative, the diksa-guru, and Krsna? No. The more you make advancement, the more the area of your surrender will increase. But at least it must begin somewhere. At least you must surrender to one person. That is why diksa is important. Are you all ready to surrender? Sure? So if I ask you to go back to Godhead, will you go back to Godhead? That is the meaning of surrender. You have to have the confidence that, "Here is a person I can trust." Or, "here is a person to whom I am going to surrender, and I am going to listen to what he is going to say." Right? This means that this diksa is the process of giving up your false ego. Why can't we surrender? What stops us from surrendering? False ego. False ego makes us think that we are the greatest. Isn't it? Due to our false ego, we think, "I am the greatest; why do I need to surrender?" But surrendering means taking a vow, taking an official condition that we are going to at least accept one person. But that is the beginning. From one person you are beginning. But that does not mean that you are going to surrender to that one person only.

 

Rather, the more you make advancement, the more your area of surrender will increase. And do you know what is the sign, the symptom, of an uttama adhikari, the 1st class pure devotee? He thinks that everybody else became a pure devotee and that only he could not become a devotee. That means that he surrenders to everybody. And what is the sign of a kanistha-adhikari, a 3d class devotee? A 3d class devotee thinks that Krsna is God and that he is the only devotee, and that everyone else should surrender to him. So that is the difference in terms of material and spiritual consideration. In spiritual life, the more we advance, the more surrendered we become. And the less advanced we are, the more we maintain our false ego. Now, we have to give up our false ego. So where do we begin? We begin in this way, through the process of initiation. So you are going to make a condition that, "at least to one person in ISKCON I am going to surrender, I am going to listen to him."

 

So before you step in to get your japa mala and your new name, you have to think about it deeply, whether or not you are prepared to surrender. If you are not prepared to surrender, it is better you wait for some time. Okay? Another consideration of diksa is receiving of mantra. But the 1st initiation, the harinam initiation, the receiving of mantra, is not actually important. Why? Because the mantra has been given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is public. You have been chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra even before initiation. So the mantra you have already gotten. But the gayatri mantra, which one receives during 2nd initiation, is still a secret. That mantra is received through the process of initiation. The spiritual master gives the mantra. But in ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada introduced something quite unique, namely that even harinam is considered to be initiation.

 

In the Gaudiya Matha, Harinam is not considered to be initiation. Only the brahmana diksa, the gayatri, is considered to be initiation. But Srila Prabhupada introduced the custom that even harinam is given officially, and one takes a vow to chant a certain number of rounds a day, namely 16 rounds. How? Offenselessly. There are 10 offenses to the Holy Name. Now I'll get into that. But before, I will request some initiated devotees to tie the neck-beads on the necks of the initiation candidates. Krsna incarnates in various ways. In some ages, Krsna appears in different incarnations. But in Kali Yuga, Krsna has a very special incarnation. That is, in Kali Yuga Krsna incarnates in the form of His Holy Name. This Name is Krsna Himself. Namnam akari bahuda nija sarva saktis, tatrarpita niyamita smarane na kalah, etadrsi tava krpa Bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah." Oh my Lord, You have invested Your entire potency in Your Holy Name." So when Krsna's entire potency is in the name, is the name any different from Krsna? That means the name is Krsna Himself. On the altar, Krsna has manifested Himself in His Deity form. That is Krsna manifesting Himself out of earth, stone. Right? Then, when we have the fire sacrifice, that will be another incarnation of Krsna in the form of fire. Similarly, earth, fire, water, air and ether. In ether, what is manifested? Sound. So Krsna manifested Himself in ether, through sound, in the form of His Holy Name. It is non-different.

 

Is the Deity stone or is it Krsna? It is Krsna. Someone may say, "But it is stone!" Yes, apparently it is stone, but this stone is Krsna Himself, because had He not manifested Himself in stone, we would not have been able to see Him. Had He not have manifested Himself in this way, would we have been able to see Him? No. Therefore in order to become visible to us, Krsna manifest Himself to us in the form of earth, stone. Wood, clay, jewel, etc that is the way Krsna manifests Himself in the form of His Deity. Isvarah paramah Krsna sac cit ananda vigraha. So His vigraha, His transcendental form, is sat cit ananda, full of knowledge, eternal, and full of bliss. Similarly, just as Krsna has manifested Himself in the form of His virgraha, deity, on the altar, Krsna also has manifested Himself in the form of His Holy Name. Krsna has manifested Himself in the form of sound. But that sound is Krsna Himself. So when we chant the Holy Name, Krsna Himself will appear. Krsna has manifested Himself in the form of His Holy Name, but if we chant the Name offensively, then that sound vibration will not be Krsna Himself.

 

So there are ten offences to the Holy Name. We have to be very, very careful to avoid committing these offences. Do all of you know what are these offences?[initiates recite the 10 offenses.]

 

Those who are gayatri candidates, they will get the gayatri after the fire sacrifice. I'll just say a few words about the gayatri mantra. It is said that just by chanting the gayatri mantra, one becomes delivered. The difference between the gayatri and the hare Krsna maha-mantra is that gayatri is mantra, whereas the hare Krsna mantra is MAHA mantra. Why? You see, gayatri has 3 aspects. It has bija, or seed, then nama, the name of the personality about which this gayatri is indicated, and then nyasa, how to chant, or how to mediate, on that mantra. Of these three, the most important is the nama. Just as in a locket the most precious jem is kept in the middle, just as the 6 most important chapters of the Bhagavad Gita are kept in the middle, similarly, of these 3 aspects, the nama is the most important.

 

The bija and the nyasa indicate the nama. Every gayatri must have a seed. For example, for brahma gayatri, the seed is 'om.' I'll give you an example, "Om namo bhagavate Vasudevaya.' Here, the bija is "Om," the nama is Vasudeva, and how are we meditating, by 'namah,' Therefore this can be considered to be a gayatri. Nowadays, everyone chants the brahma gayatri. Generally, they are not said in public, but since it has become quite public, I'll take the example. In the brahma gayatri, the bija is "om," 'bhur bhuvah savitur varenyam' is the name.

 

Who is the personality? It is He who is the worshipable Lord of Savita, who lights up the bhur bhuva and svarga. And that 'dimahi dhi yo yo na pracodayat' is the nyasa. Of these 3 aspects, the most important is the nama. Now, in the hare Krsna maha-mantra, what do we have? Hare Krsna hare Krsna Krsna Krsna hare hare, hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare. It is only name and name and name and name only. Therefore it is maha-mantra. Also we can consider the panca tattva mantra. It is maha-mantra. Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadadhara Srivas adi gaura bhakta vrinda. Srila Prabhupada also indicated this panca tattva mantra as maha-mantra. Now you understand why? Because it consists only of names, whereas the gayatri mantra should have bija, nama, and nyasa. So this gayatri is meant to be meditated upon. Gayatri is indicated, as I said, "Dimahi di yo yo na pracodayat." The person who inspires us, that person we mediate upon. The maha-mantra, on the other hand, can be mediated, can be sung, and can be congregationally chanted. Gayatri is a secret mantra. Therefore it is given in a quiet place. Now, the initiation candidates can come forward. Before that, we will do acaman, which means cleansing the vocal channel. Before one chants mantra, or before one takes a vow, one is meant to do the acamana. It is done by taking a few drops of water in your palm and drinking from the base of your palm and chanting, "Om Sri Kesavaya namah"---

[theist 1]

 

As a matter of fact, before you got to know me, you got to know ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. So ISKCON is actually the most important factor for our spiritual advancement.

 

 

Does that sound right ?

 

[jagatpurush 0]

i take this to mean that association is the most important thing? for those, like me, in ISKCON, association is mainly ISKCON.

[theist 1]

Maybe I am just reading it funny.

 

 

As a matter of fact, before you got to know me, you got to know ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. So ISKCON is actually the most important factor for our spiritual advancement.

 

 

But shouldn't it read, 'So Srila Prabhupada is actually the most important factor for our spiritual advancement'?

[Guest guest]

eom

[Guest guest]

Association of Pure Devotees, that is, Sri Vaisnava Sanga, is the best thing. With that comes initiation from a bonafide guru. If there is someone senior to that Guru, a real Guru will stop giving initiation and tell prospective disciples to go to that Guru and he himself will take Siksa from that Guru. This is the established Siddhanta on this matter.

 

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

but iskcon gurus do not do it.. so there's problems

[muralidhar_das 0]

In reply to:<blockquote>

As a matter of fact, before you got to know me, you got to know ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. So ISKCON is actually the most important factor for our spiritual advancement.

</blockquote>

 

Theist said:

Does that sound right ?

<hr>

 

There are several things in this talk that don't seem right to me. One thing he says really sticks out:

 

<blockquote>

Bhakti Caru Swami said...

 

Another consideration of diksa is receiving of mantra. But the 1st initiation, the harinam initiation, the receiving of mantra, is not actually important. Why? Because the mantra has been given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is public. You have been chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra even before initiation. So the mantra you have already gotten. But the gayatri mantra, which one receives during 2nd initiation, is still a secret. That mantra is received through the process of initiation. The spiritual master gives the mantra. But in ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada introduced something quite unique, namely that even harinam is considered to be initiation.

 

In the Gaudiya Matha, Harinam is not considered to be initiation. Only the brahmana diksa, the gayatri, is considered to be initiation. But Srila Prabhupada introduced the custom that even harinam is given officially, and one takes a vow to chant a certain number of rounds a day, namely 16 rounds.

</blockquote>

 

I cannot accept this statement and the reasoning he employs: "But the 1st initiation, the harinam initiation, the receiving of mantra, is not actually important."

 

I received Harinama and Gayatri Diksa from Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj, a "Gaudiya Math Acharya", and what Bhakti Caru Swami says is definitely different from what Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj said to me (and all my Godbrothers and Godsisters) when I received Harinama from him.

 

<blockquote>

Student: I have heard that one has an eternal connection with the

spiritual master who first initiates one into the chanting of the Hare

Krsna maha-mantra (harinama guru). Does he have a similar

connection with the mantra guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes. We may see it as similar, with a

slight difference.

Student: Some devotees who took harinama initiation from

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada later took their gayatri mantra

initiation from one of his disciples. Can you explain the distinction

between the two initiations and how a disciple should view his

relationship with two different spiritual masters?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The first importance should be given to

the nama guru, or the guru who initiates one into the chanting of the

holy name of Krsna, and second to the guru who gives initiation into

the gayatri mantra. The diksa guru, initiating spiritual master, must be

shown respect, and then all the other disciples of Bhaktivedanta

Swami Prabhupada. First, honor must be shown to Prabhupada, who is

the nama guru, the guru of guru, the second honor will go to the diksa

guru, and then to the rest, accommodating all. They should all be

recognized according to their status.

</blockquote>

 

There is also this:

<blockquote>

Student: How many rounds did your guru maharaja ask his initiated disciples to

chant each day? Did he prescribe any set number?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: His general recommendation was to chant twentyfive

thousand names, sixteen rounds, daily, or at least four rounds minimum.

When someone had no work, he could chant one hundred thousand names, or

sixty-four rounds.

Student: Would Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura give harinama initiation to

someone who could only chant four rounds daily?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: There was no such consideration. Formally, one had

to do some counting, but there was no rigid limitation. What he wanted from us

was intense engagement in the service of the Lord, under the guidance of a

Vaisnava, because the all-important point is service.

</blockquote>

 

[Guest guest]

"In the Gaudiya Matha, Harinam is not considered to be initiation. Only the brahmana diksa, the gayatri, is considered to be initiation. "

 

of course Bhakti Charu Maharaja is wrong, i know a consistent numbers of Gaudyas from various mathas and no one believes in such way

 

harinama is the real initiation and by harinama one is connected to the parampara' and saved

[theist 1]

But then I have never understood these various formal initiation procedures having received neither harinama or mantra and I have no real knowledge of the tradition.

 

This comes up periodically and never seems to get resolved. I believe it to be clearly stated by Lord Caitanya that the chanting of the Holy Names is not dependent on any formal initiation.

 

As to gayatri mantra for Deity worship or other mantras I have no knowledge.

 

I was pointing out there seems to be a tendency still to substitute kind of an impersonal institutional concept (Iskcon) over a direct relation with Prabhupada That I find questionable.

 

Either Prabhupada can and is still willing to bestow his mercy or he is not. And he is independent of Iskcon rather Iskcon is dependent upon him and Krsna.

 

The students are left with this sometimes vauge conception of an institution to expect mercy from which ultimately means the GBC and frankly I don't think that is their position.

 

Of course association with devotees always means accepting their mercy in some form but here it is meant in a much more specific way I believe. And in a way that tends to block or obscure a direct connection with Srila Prabhupada.

 

Now it is clear from what Prabhupada taught that he wants and expects his disciples to rise to that level themselves. I am not in argreement with the ritviks. But it can't be said that they have no good points because they surely do.

 

But it is almost like there is some hedging going on. Not specifically by Bhakti caru who I don't know and am not fit to judge his motives in any case, but in general I get this sense that they is this kind of "In case I fall down then let it never be said you weren't warned and in such a case just stay merged in Iskcon and you will still get the mercy." Or something like that, you know what I mean.

 

There is honesty in that but why direct the faith to Iskcon istead of directly to the person of Srila Prabhupada?

[jagatpurush 0]

>"In the Gaudiya Matha, Harinam is not considered to be initiation. Only the brahmana diksa, the gayatri, is considered to be initiation. "

 

of course Bhakti Charu Maharaja is wrong, i know a consistent numbers of Gaudyas from various mathas and no one believes in such way

 

well obviously you haven't had THAT much association with Gaudiya Matha. this is a sort of smarta thinking within Gaudiya Matha. for example, some smarta types in the Gaudiya Matha think that BV Puri Maharaj is not a full disciple of Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura because he only took harinama and not DIKSA. if you had ever been to a Gaudiya Matha, you would know that gayatri initiation is called 'diksa', and not harinama. so before you go criticizing a Prabhupada disciple faithful sannyasi and guru, please get your facts straight. just because YOU say something doesn't make it so.

[jagatpurush 0]

>Association of Pure Devotees, that is, Sri Vaisnava Sanga, is the best thing. With that comes initiation from a bonafide guru. If there is someone senior to that Guru, a real Guru will stop giving initiation and tell prospective disciples to go to that Guru.

 

what is the proof of this? Narayana Maharaj never said that only he in the world should initiate. in fact he says the opposite:

 

"If a man is not uttama Vaisnava, even if he is madhyama adhikari stage, if he is simple and sincere, HE SHOULD BE TREATED AS GURU and we can take initiation from that person."

 

he should be treated as guru--not treated as inferior because he does not take siksa from Narayan Maharaja even though he is a dear disciple of Prabhupada and has been serving Prabhupada faithfully and a sannyasi since before you were born. this whole attitude of superiority is very unvaisnava and very kanistha and typical of what we see from the NM camp unfortunately. do you think that because you are associated with Narayana Maharaja you have cornered the market on bhakti and are now qualified to criticize everyone--even people vastly senior to you?

 

no mature devotee would go around trying to undermine other people's faith in a bona fide spiritual master. do you see murlidhar doing that? no, he is just analyzing on a philosophical level. that is different. thanks, jpd

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"I believe it to be clearly stated by Lord Caitanya that the chanting of the Holy Names is not dependent on any formal initiation."

 

it is absolutely right, but many things can be added.

1)Harinama initiation is not formal, actually it does not exist in hindu tradition... no ritual is required, the principles and rounds number asked by the master can vary from zero to anything.

2)to go back to godhead is necessary to follow a present living uttama adhikari spiritual master, it is stated by bhagavad gita. We can say that we chant hare krsna by the mercy of the spiritual master and we can say that by chanting harinama we asked to krsna to give us shelter and service through the spiritual master ans the spiritual master has come... and both statements are valid.

3)when we are under the guidance of a bona fide guru, it is natural that he gives a precise instruction on how many mahamantra rounds we have at least to chant daily, wich moral rules we have to follow and then he gives a sacred name to remember to us our connection with krsna. That's harinama initiation, nothing complicated, nothing agaist the principle that harinama is independent by formal initiation..... because actually harinama it is not a formal initiation..

 

"I was pointing out there seems to be a tendency still to substitute kind of an impersonal institutional concept (Iskcon) over a direct relation with Prabhupada That I find questionable."

 

in my opinion the problem is another... the tendence is that many iskcon gurus do not take the full responsability of guruship. Guru us the direct link with krsna, we go to krsna through him, not through some organization that he has joined or through his own spiritual master. Prabhupada never said that he was initiating to put disciples under the protection of iskcon or srila bhaktisiddhanta.. he said many times that he directly was bringing back his disciples to krsna, not someone else. So all this "Prabhupadism" is shown as a great praise for Srila Prabhupada but actually it is lack of respect for the tradition he has taught to us, so lack of respect for his instructions

 

"And in a way that tends to block or obscure a direct connection with Srila Prabhupada."

 

direct connection with acharyas means direct connection through the present bona fide spiritual master who will transcendentally give us the knowledge to understand the previous acharyas and krsna and the necessary purification to achieve their darshan. In vaishnavism there's not such emphasis on "direct"... we chant "hare" to achieve "krsna", we chant "chaitanya" to achieve "hare and krsna", we take shelter in a guru to follow in his person the previous acharyas, chaitanya, radhe, krsna and so on. The more we are indirect, the more we receive direct mercy

 

"Now it is clear from what Prabhupada taught that he wants and expects his disciples to rise to that level themselves"

 

yes.. through the guidance of a "visible" acharya. Prabhupada gave thousand of initiations, he added fire ceremony on harinama too for extra solemnity. It is not possible to understand that prabhupada was suggesting a "do it yourself" without surrendering to a present spiritual master. He never directed the disciples' devotion naturally expressed for him to his spiritual master or to any other previous acharya, he was supremely humble, but ready to give direct shelter. This is the gaudya's standard, guru is the link to krsna, not the link to a previous acharya or to an organization.. In the guruvastakam we learn that guru has an active role in krsna's pastimes

 

"There is honesty in that but why direct the faith to Iskcon istead of directly to the person of Srila Prabhupada? "

 

both possibilities are wrong... if a guru is a guru, through worshiping him also previous acharyas are worshiped and also the sadhu sanga (=iskcon, gaudya matha and so on)

[Guest guest]

"well obviously you haven't had THAT much association with Gaudiya Matha"

 

we have read the message of srila sridhara maharaja and you mentioned srila bhakti vaibhava puri maharaja who agrees that harinama is a real initiation.. then bhakti pramod puri maharaja was in the same line and also the followers from keshava bharati maharaja, narayana maharaja included...

 

consider this and consider also that many others believe in such way and please tell me wich matha remains left to have given such generalized opinion (that gaudyas do not agree that harinama is real initiation) to Bhakti Charu Maharaja

 

(also in iskcon it is used the word "diksa" when is given gayatri and sacred thread and not when it is given harinama. If you go in an iskcon temple and you say "yesterday i received diksa from bhakti charu maharaja" everyone understands that yesterday you received brahminic thread and gayatri mantra.. not harinama )

[krsna 3]

Q. I read that the adi-guru is the devotee who founds the disciplic succession and establishes its original teachings, and that "founder acarya" refers to the devotee who redirects the parampara and corrects the teachings when they become lost or altered. In this regard some consider Srila Prabhupada's contribution to be like that of Madhva and Ramanuja, who are founder acaryas. Some consider them adi-gurus as well, so I guess Srila Prabhupada could also be both an adi-guru and a founder acarya. The book I read says further that Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that devotees who succeed the founder acarya are duty bound to see the teachings of the parampara through the founder acarya's instructions. There was however no reference from the writings of Bhaktivinode Thakura given to support these statements. Did Bhaktivinoda Thakura actually say all this?

 

A. The terms adi-guru and founder acarya are defined here in a novel way. Except for one instance, I have never read where any acarya used the term adi-guru to refer to anyone other than Krsna, the original guru. Similarly, the term founder acarya is not a scriptural term. If it were, it would be a translation of a Sanskrit term. Founder acarya refers to the founding acarya of an institution. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was the founder acarya of Gaudiya Math, Srila Prabhupada was the founder acarya of Iskcon, Srila Sridhara Maharaja was the founder acarya of Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math, and so forth.

 

Srila Prabhupada himself never explained the terms adi-guru and founder acarya in the way that you have done. So from the start we are left to accept the explanation of these terms with no supporting evidence.

 

Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes, "If we are to accept guru, so the original guru is Krsna because He instructed Lord Brahma, the first living creature within this universe. Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye [sB 1.1.1]. He instructed the adi-kavi (Brahma, the original poet from whom the Vedic scriptures emanate). He is the guru, Krsna. And in the Bhagavad-gita, he also says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [bg. 4.1]. So He (Krsna) is adi guru. In Bhagavad-gita also he is instructing Arjuna. He is adi guru."

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes, "The adi-guru of all the spiritual masters in the disciplic succession is Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Showing his great mercy, he instructed Brahma, the adi-kavi.

 

These truths were in turn taught by Brahma to Sri Narada, by Narada to Sri Vyasa, and by Vyasa to Sri Madhvacarya. Such instructions as received through this disciplic succession are called guru-parampara-upadesa."

 

The one instance I mentioned of adi-guru referring to someone other than Krsna is in Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Harinama Cintamani, where he refers to Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, and Visnuswami as adi-gurus. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism the term founder acarya first came into use during the time of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. It is not found in Harinama Cintamani or any of the writings of Bhaktivinoda that I am familiar with. Therefore I don't know how anyone could justify writing that Bhaktivinoda Thakura interpreted the term founder acarya in any particular way. In this case it appears to me that this reference from Harinama Cintamani has been grossly misconstrued to equate the term founder acarya with the founder of a sampradaya. I have already explained that the terms adi-guru and founder acarya are not synonymous. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, not Srila Prabhupada, is the founder of the Gaudiya Sampradaya.

 

[theist 1]

 

to go back to godhead is necessary to follow a present living uttama adhikari spiritual master, it is stated by bhagavad gita.

 

 

This carries the odd notion that Srila Prabhupada is now a non-living spiritual master and non-present.

 

I cannot accept that and must conclude any philosophy with these ideas as a foundation must be in some way erroneous.

[Guest guest]

"This carries the odd notion that Srila Prabhupada is now a non-living spiritual master and non-present. "

 

this fact is well explained by srila gaura govinda goswami in a class that i see very often in audarya..

 

the vaishnavas does not die, but for us, who are under maya's influence, they' "disappear", so for the purpose of siksa and diksa we have to find someone else who is impersonating the role of spiritual master teaching us directly, giving us direct advices and instructions and chastizing us

 

uttama adhikaris like srila prabhupada live in goloka with full relationship with krishna, but when they come in our world they surrender to a living (in human terms) spiritual master to teach us the right behaviour..

 

another thing to say is that only in iskcon a disappeared (for common humans) acharya is considered siksa guru, a "departed" acharya who has left books or classes,letters and so on is "shastra"

 

siksa is there if the relationship between guru and sisya is interactive, if there's an exchange, actions and reactions visible by the human eyes of the disciple..

.

.

.

 

now you can discuss other points too.. :-)

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

Babru once told me Harinama initation is diksya.

 

Also when Lord Gauranga went to Gaya on pretent of offering oblations [sraddha] to his father, he actually went to gain initation from Isvara Puri. Now I am not sure if this was Harinama or Gayatri. [lol]

[theist 1]

 

the vaishnavas does not die, but for us, who are under maya's influence, they' "disappear",...

 

 

No the vaisnava does not die but you didn't finish the quote. Something about "thou art living still in sound."

 

For those of us who are under maya's influence we never actually saw them (in any sense of word) when they were "present".

 

If you go by sight Srila Prabhupada was an elderly Indian gentleman who walk with a cane. But is that what one accepts as his spiritual master? or does one accept the spiritsoul , the real Srila Prabhupada, who is transcendental to birth death old age and disease? To see guru is to hear guru through a purified mind. That process is still ongoing for those whom Krishna is choosing to reveal Himself to through Srila Prabhupada. Or are you suggesting that we now toss out his books and tapes?

 

 

...so for the purpose of siksa and diksa we have to find someone else who is impersonating the role of spiritual master teaching us directly, giving us direct advices and instructions and chastizing us

 

 

You don't think you can receive siksa from Srila Prabhupada's books and tapes? Only from a "presentliving" human body with a devotee inside huh?

 

Do you want to be chatised? In what way? Your godbrothers can tell you to get your body up for mangala arotik. Do you think you need a pure devotee for that? Advanced godbrothers can help you with certain hurdles in your life or places where you become confused as to you duty and what to speak of Supersoul giving directions. Your Spiritual Master you have never been apart from.

 

 

uttama adhikaris like srila prabhupada live in goloka with full relationship with krishna, but when they come in our world they surrender to a living (in human terms) spiritual master to teach us the right behaviour..

 

 

Yes so follow that if you are of a mind to. No one is suggesting you don't. But remember not everyone on the big chair is of Srila Prabhupada's realization. Don't just surrender to someone because he is on the big chair. And please consider that to surrender means to the instructions of. So are you saying that one now cannot surrender to the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to love Krsna to always chant Hare Krsna etc.?

 

 

another thing to say is that only in iskcon a disappeared (for common humans) acharya is considered siksa guru, a "departed" acharya who has left books or classes,letters and so on is "shastra"

 

 

Sorry I don't understand your point.

 

 

siksa is there if the relationship between guru and sisya is interactive, if there's an exchange, actions and reactions visible by the human eyes of the disciple..

 

 

Nonsense. It's only valid if "visible by the human eyes of the disciple". So a blind man cannot have a guru?

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[theist 1]

 

the tendence is that many iskcon gurus do not take the full responsability of guruship.

 

 

Why just Iskcon? this is common. They are the most visible so they take the most heat but this is nothing new. Forever people have been prematurely taking the position of guru. There will always be some with more bhakti-sakti and some with less. Someone Krsna may empower in one way and another in some apparently lesser way. Also some are just not yet able to fully deliver someone else to Krsna but they may still be able to give solid instructions and may be very steady in their own sadhana and soft of heart towards others. Why cannot they be formally respected as one's guru or teacher? One should be respectful to their grammer teacher what to expect of your bhagavad-gita teacher.

 

The problem arises when false promises are made. Such as "I am now your only link to the paramparaYou must worship me as good as God or you will be lost" etc.

 

I got the impression that Bhakti Caru was being honest by not making such false promises. At least that was my feeling. He was making it clear that his students were free to receive siksa from others as well as Srila Prabhupada. What is wrong with that? I found the emphasis on Iskcon over Srila Prabhupada troubling that's all.

[stonehearted 0]

Pankaja:

Babru once told me Harinama initation is diksya.

 

 

What I probably said was that Srila Prabhupada sometimes wrote disciples that harinama was more important, and sometimes that mantra-diksa was more important. (He told me the latter.)

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

Here is the quote [lol] I feel so happy to 'get one over on you' my Guru!!!!

 

I'll include full e-mail.

 

 

 

On Harinama etc

 

Who says? My spiritual master, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada gave harinam diksa by letter to disciples who didn't live where he was. Many disciples were initiated this way, including me. Srila Prabhupada was in New York, and I was in Honolulu. Still, he wrote, "I am in due receipt of your very kind letter dated 19th July, and you will be glad to know that I have gladly accepted you as my duly initiated disciple. Your beads have been duly chanted on by me and they are enclosed herewith."

 

As far as the guru chanting mantra in the disciple's ear, that is important for mantra-diksha, which is also known among us a second initiation. Even for that, Srila Prabhupada had tape recordings of him chanting the diksa mantras and authorized playing those tape recordings into the disciple's ear. This is just as potent as sitting next to him and hearing it directly from him, as I did. (It's not as much fun, though; that was the most amazing experience, sitting shoulder to shoulder with Srila Prabhupada for 20 or 25 minutes.) How is this as potent? By the will of the Vaishnava. Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja, when asked about this, replied in this way: "The will of the Vaisnava is everything. The books written by the mahatmas, that is something like tape. They have given instructions through the medium of so many symbols. That has got value. The will, the center from which the vibration is passed, if still in connection, if the Vaisnava's consent is there, it will work. Our Guru Maharaja through telephone gave Harinama to one person in Dacca on his death bed. He was recommended by his disciples. With phone he gave, but because of his consent, his will, the connection was there. In this way we are to take it. . . . The will of the Vaisnava is the heart of the affair. If his will is in place, if he gives his consent, the connection is complete and everything else surrounding initiation is secondary."

 

So if Sripad Puri Maharaja has agreed to accept you as his disciple, accepted your promise to follow the regulations for a disciple, chanted on your beads, and given you a spiritual name, then it is by his will that Krishna authorizes the initiation. Don't worry, and don't let naysayers discourage you. I don't know who is telling you this; perhaps it's ISKCON devotees or someone else who thinks you should accept initiation from them or their guru. Don't worry.

 

Sripad Tripurari Maharaja, for whom I have the greatest respect, actually wrote about this kind of complaint in one of his Sanga newsletters. You can find it here:

http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_four/m195.html

 

He also wrote another which you may find instructive, called "The Magisc of Diksha." You can find that one here:

http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_five/m222.html

 

Have you received your beads and your new name yet? Be sure to keep me posted, and let me know if I can help in any way.

 

Yours in service,

Babhru das

 

 

[stonehearted 0]

Well, it looks as though I made a distinction there between harinama diksa and mantra diksa. They're not identical or equivalent, especially in our line.

 

I also think it's considered good netiquette to ask the author before publishing a private email. ;-) Nevertheless, I'm glad I was able to amuse you by making it easy for you to "get one over on" me.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada said on second initiation;-

 

"Regarding your questions, second initiation is real initiation. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared, just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified then he is recognized as a brahmana and that means real initiation. The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. Just like my spiritual master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, you are educated boys, why don't you preach this cult. That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day.

If you think of me and work for me, then I am in your heart. If you love somebody he is in your heart. It is common thing, everyone understands it. If I hate somebody or if I love somebody he is also in my heart." letter to Jadurani dasi 4th Sept 1972

 

And from experience Harinama is officially given in Gaudiya math.

[Guest guest]

"If you go by sight Srila Prabhupada was an elderly Indian gentleman who walk with a cane. But is that what one accepts as his spiritual master?"

 

if you do not accept the millions of instructions of srila prabhupada about surrendering to a spiritual master, if you do not accept his example in being uttama adhikari, but also taking harinama, diksa and sannyasi from other spiritual persons, you are actually considering him in this way.

To consider prabhupada great means to follow his advices and example

 

" To see guru is to hear guru through a purified mind."

 

a purified mind is achieved following the instructions of gita and acharyas, not fantasizing thatwe do not need a guru because a "departed(in human terms)" one is still giving instructions to us. Prabhupada gave thousand initiations, and he gave all the instruction about guru seva in "vani" to initiated devotees. It is very strange if we use this science to avoid to take initiation and siksa from a guru that we can see and interact with even in our conditioned stage

 

"You don't think you can receive siksa from Srila Prabhupada's books and tapes?"

 

you can receive instructions in general terms, but you cannot receive instructions suited for you and you only.. and it is not possible also to receive instructions for our precise time, place and circumstance. And it is not possible any interaction, and it is not possible to be chastized.. if you go to a wrong page of the folio or of the srimad bhagavatam they do not chastize you

 

" Your godbrothers can tell you to get your body up for mangala arotik. Do you think you need a pure devotee for that?"

 

if you do not need personal association with the guru, why you have to listen to godbrothers? wake up when you want and there's surely a Prabhupada instruction somewhere, given in a particular circumstance, that you can use to back up your decision

 

"But remember not everyone on the big chair is of Srila Prabhupada's realization. Don't just surrender to someone because he is on the big chair."

 

no one is suggesting to surrender to "big chairs".. if guru isn't uttama adhikari why surrender? But uttama adhikaris are surely there, otherwise why all these instructions about taking a spiritual master by previous acharyas?If it were impossible there was no need to instruct us about guru tattva

 

"It's only valid if "visible by the human eyes of the disciple". So a blind man cannot have a guru?"

 

i understand that sometimes you have to do a little joke.. :-)

 

"the tendence is that many iskcon gurus do not take the full responsability of guruship.

------

Why just Iskcon? this is common"

 

false gurus are everywhere, but this custom to take disciples and say that it is not the guru to take them to krsna, but it is the organization or prabhupada, is typical of iskcon. We have seen it in the bhakti charu maharaja's class

 

"The problem arises when false promises are made. Such as "I am now your only link to the parampara"

 

if one cannot be a link to parampara why act as guru?