ISKCON and Varnasrama-Dharma: A Mission Unfulfilled

[krsna 3]

 

 

 

Ravindra Svarupa Dasa

 

 

Nevertheless, in the world today we have democracy because the power monarchy was abused, we have socialism because the power of capital was abused, we have feminism because the power of masculinity was abused. I understand why women want independence in the same way that I recognize why ordinary citizens want to control the government. Both positions are, however, against our philosophy.

 

I know from my own experience how sankirtana in America tended to become less and less of a brahminical preaching activity and more and more of a vaisya commercial activity, with books eventually being replaced by secular paraphernalia. This shift from preaching

to fund-raising after Srila Prabhupada’s demise has been well documented by E. Burke Rochford in Hare Krishna in America (New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1986). While the movement prospered financially, it declined spiritually. Prabhupada’s misgivings proved sound.

 

In 1987, ISKCON in America fortunately changed course. The North American leaders resolved to stop all sales of secular items by the temples and to return them to what was, in effect, a brahminical mode of maintenance, depending mainly upon donations from the congregation and working residents. All the temples in North America quickly went broke. However, there has been since then a slow but steady recovery, both spiritual and financial. Both depend, in my view, on turning the temples into exemplary brahminical institutions. The brief history I have recounted illustrates the truth — and the prescience — of Prabhupada’s perception.

 

Let me note another important indication of ISKCON’s failure to organize brahminical training. In 1976, Prabhupada ordered a gradated system of examinations to be instituted in ISKCON. To this day, this order is unfulfilled.

From a letter Prabhupada had his secretary send out to the GBC to convey his directions:

 

Re: Examinations for awarding titles of Bhakti-sastri, Bhakti-vaibhava, Bhakti-vedanta and Bhakti-sarvabhauma.

 

... Srila Prabhupada has requested me to write you in regard to the above examinations which he wishes to institute. Here in India many persons often criticize our sannyasis and brahmanas as being unqualified due to insufficient knowledge of the scriptures. Factually, there are numerous instances when our sannyasis and brahmanas have fallen down often due to insufficient understanding of the philosophy. This should not be a point of criticism nor a reason for falldown, since Srila Prabhupada has mercifully made the most essential scriptures available to us in his books. The problem is that not all the devotees are carefully studying the books, the result being a fall down or at least unsteadiness.

 

His Divine Grace therefore wishes to institute examinations to be given to all prospective candidates for sannyasa and brahmana initiation. In addition he wishes that all present sannyasis and brahmanas also pass the examination. Awarding of these titles will be based upon the following books:

 

Bhakti-sastri — Bhagavad-gita, Nectar of Devotion, Nectar of Instruction, Isopanisad, Easy Journey To Other Planets, and all other small paperbacks, as well as Arcana-paddhati (a book to be compiled by Nitai Prabhu based on Hari-bhakti-vilasa on Deity worship)

 

Bhakti-vaibhava — All of the above plus the first six cantos of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

Bhakti-vedanta — All of the above plus cantos seven through twelve of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

Bhakti-sarvabhauma — All the above plus the entire Caitanya-caritamrta.

 

Anyone wishing to be initiated as a brahmana will have to pass the Bhakti-sastri exam and anyone wishing to take sannyasa will have to pass the Bhakti-vaibhava examination as well. This will prevent our Society from degrading to the level of so many other institutions where, in order to maintain the Temple, they accept all third class men as brahmanas. Any sannyasis or brahmanas already initiated who fail to pass the exams will be considered low class or less qualified. Anyone wishing to be second initiated will sit for examination once a year at Mayapura. Answers will be in essay form and authoritative quotations will be given a bigger score. During the exams books may not be consulted.

Finally, let me briefly note a second major reason ISKCON has had difficulty understanding and instituting varnasrama-dharma. This is the fact that the system can neither be understood nor practiced within the material and conceptual framework of an industrial society. Prabhupada taught that the modern industrial economy was artificial, unnatural, and harmful to the human and non-human world. In one way or another it would one day have to be sized-down and scaled back. Humanity would have to develop a new economy, in which the family would be restored as a unit of production and in which local self-sufficiency — most importantly in the matter of food supply — would become a major value. Therefore, from the very beginning Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to establish self-sufficient, rural communities, not only to construct the material basis necessary for varnasrama-dharma, but also to provide working examples of an alternative when the inevitable transition to a neo-agrarian economy began to impose itself upon the industrialized world.

 

ISKCON has established a number of these rural communities in advanced industrial countries. Many devotees have moved to them to ‘learn to live off the land’ and practice ‘plain living and high thinking.’ Yet over the course of time these projects have evolved largely into suburban-style Hare Krsna communities. We still await the self-sufficient agrarian community in practice. Although there are social and economic reasons why this ideal has failed in practice, I suspect a necessary condition for its future success will be the contribution of genuine brahmanas, whose creation is still ISKCON’s unfulfilled mission.

My proposal, therefore, for establishing varnasrama-dharma in ISKCON, and even in the society at large, is first of all to take the first step and do everything needed to form a proper community of brahmanas. According to Bhagavad-gita (18.42), two of the traits evinced by brahmanas are jnana and vijnana, that is, they have genuine knowledge of the Absolute Truth and they posses the wisdom to apply that knowledge appropriately. If this first step is taken, and ISKCON is thus given a brain, then I am sure we shall be in a better position to know where to go further.

 

I am happy to report that a movement is gaining strength among the leaders to make ISKCON an organization primarily dedicated to education and training. If we continue in this way, I am sure we will become eligible to receive Prabhupada’s legacy and empowered to convey it to the rest of humankind.

[Kulapavana 0]

finally some Iskcon "bigshot" decides it is time to openly talk about the missing 50% of Srila Prabhupada's mission...

 

"let me briefly note a second major reason ISKCON has had difficulty understanding and instituting varnasrama-dharma. This is the fact that the system can neither be understood nor practiced within the material and conceptual framework of an industrial society"

 

Iskcon has failed to even IDENTIFY the varna of it's own members, let alone implementing the varnasrama system in society at large.

 

btw: what is your varna, my dear Ravindra Svarupa Dasa?

 

and btw: the actual IMPLEMENTATION of the varnasrama system is NOT in the hands of the brahmanas, but in the hands of the kshatriyas... thus, you also need to have trained kshatriyas as well.

[Kulapavana 0]

Prabhu, where is this article from?

 

This subject matter is very dear to me. I hope there is indeed sincere interest among Iskcon leaders to complete the missing part of SP's mission. However this line has me worried:

 

"I am happy to report that a movement is gaining strength among the leaders to make ISKCON an organization primarily dedicated to education and training. If we continue in this way, I am sure we will become eligible to receive Prabhupada’s legacy and empowered to convey it to the rest of humankind."

 

translation(?): WE WILL ONLY THEORIZE...

[Guest guest]

there's not to build sanatana dharma

 

there's simply to destroy the catholic idea that priests are more close to god than other people and that temples are better than houses

 

for people is natural to learn hare krsna philosophy and remain at home to practice it.. they have a job, a place in the society (varna), they devote their mind to krsna and the job (and the whole life) turns in devotional service (ashram)

 

so there's no separate effort to do.. anything artificial is against varnashrama system

[krsna 3]

Good stuff but like you said we heard it all before...

[Gauracandra 1]

The first question we need to ask is what is it we mean by Varnashram? That is what is the goal we are trying to hit. I tend to view it as largely economic, though others will see it as social. The best you can do is have a general outline, and then let the organism grow in its myriad ways, and see what comes of it. A society can't be organized, it is a social organism and has to grow and mature. I do see it happening in Iskcon, its growing in all sorts of ways, some slowly, but here and there.

 

Here is how I see it. Srila Prabhupada set up a great bridge between East and West. Today Indians can come to western countries all over the world and immediately tap into a network of temple communities. Westerners can also tap into this network and it is a great benefit. I know many devotees who work in the U.S. and then live in India. It gives them a flexibility that most Americans never will have. Thats a great strength. Partly this is because if you are a member of a large religion, there really isn't a network you tap into (its so large, that it is somewhat meaningless). So we might call this a sort of horizontal bridge - east<->west.

 

The next step as I see it is a vertical bridge within various countries (America, Europe, India, South America etc...). Can we create a flexibility for our members to be able to move freely east and west (already pretty much established), as well as move freely from city life to country life (up and down, north and south). If we do this we have a full range of mobility and flexibility.

 

To some degree this has already been established. Again, unlike most religions which are so big, Iskcon has the advantage of being small enough that there is in fact a general cultural consensus that we want farming communities etc.... Thats a good start (having the idea, even as an ideal).

 

If we did establish strong rural communities it would be a major benefit for devotees to be able to move in between those worlds (city life & country life). The main obstacle I see is in the past Iskcon purchased land, and devotees moved out of the city. But this was basically a commune, and like communism, no one did anything.

 

Alachua seems to have done some of it right. There is a large temple community, with private ownership of their land. The main problem with rural communities is the lack of jobs. Most devotees would want to live out in the country if they could get a decent and steady job.

 

In this respect something like a Vaisnava Small Business Administration might be useful. Can we work towards creating home based businesses. I don't know what these necessarily will be, but in the U.S. there are millions of people who earn a living from home. I would think we could find a few thousand jobs that would be feasible.

 

Let me give one example I've thought of. This is a possibility of leveraging city life and country life. Its not perfect but its a general idea. Suppose (its always easier to imagine I know) you had a set of devotees who had a real skill. For a simple example, lets say you have 4 devotees who were great at stained glass. You could in fact do all of your stained glass work in the garage of your home out in the country. But how do you sell it? Well, if you had a cooperative, you could have 4 devotees, each rotates one week per month to the city. There you have a permanent office/showcase and an apartment. During the week you take orders, and work on your projects. The projects are shared with the others living in the country who create the work. Each week one person rotates out and another rotates in.

 

There are a couple of advantages here. First, you only have to live in the city one week per month. Commute wouldn't be that bad, after all every 3 weeks you might drive 8 hours. The second advantage is competitive. I'd be willing to bet with a skill like this, you could in fact have cheaper rates than competitors who don't have that network and all live in the city. All you have to do is earn enough to maintain a life in the country, they have to earn enough to maintain a life in the city.

 

So I've been trying to brainstorm what sorts of jobs these are. What jobs could be done at home and at the same time with a devotee rural community would give a slight competitive edge.

[Guest guest]

Ravindra Swarupa is completely wrong.

 

He says that ISKCON should be all about the Brahminical dependence on donations, that Varnashrama cannot work in an industrial society, that ISKCON's version of varnashrama needs to be all about self sufficient agrarian communities, that ISKCON needs to enforce sastric testing standards because:

 

 

Quote:

This will prevent our Society from degrading to the level of so many other institutions where, in order to maintain the Temple, they accept all third class men as brahmanas. Any sannyasis or brahmanas already initiated who fail to pass the exams will be considered low class or less qualified.

 

 

 

And he says that the real problem that is keeping Varnashrama from succeeding in ISKCON is:

 

 

 

Quote:

I suspect a necessary condition for its future success will be the contribution of genuine brahmanas, whose creation is still ISKCON’s unfulfilled mission.

 

My proposal, therefore, for establishing varnasrama-dharma in ISKCON, and even in the society at large, is first of all to take the first step and do everything needed to form a proper community of brahmanas.

 

 

 

 

It's amazing to me that a person with a top leadership position in ISKCON is advocating sastric tests as a qualifier for Sannyasa and Brahmana status, and yet at the same time shows such a dismal understanding of what Prabhupada actually said he wanted in regards to Varnashrama in ISKCON.

 

First off the idea that a Sannyasi or Brahmana is or is not qualified based upon a written test is ludicrous. Any non Brahmana can study the sastra and be able to pass any sastric test if that person is so inclined. There is no shortage of people who have the ability to study and memorize philosophy without having the nature of a Brahmana or having the nature of a Sannyasi.

 

What are those tests comprised of? They will be nothing more then looking to see if the person taking the test has done his or her homework. Imagine being in College and taking a class on German philosophers of the 19th century, if you passed your course, you were then awarded status as the spiritual leader of society. You could have no qualities of a Brahmana, you may be a total hedonist, but since you had good study habits, or were good at cheating, you passed the course and now you were accepted by everyone in society as some kind of superior human. Meanwhile the people who were actually qualified based on those persons inherent nature, if they were not good students, did not have time to study or were not very good at memorizing data from books, or were not inclined to cheat, and then failed the course, they should then be seen as:

 

 

Quote:

This will prevent our Society from degrading to the level of so many other institutions where, in order to maintain the Temple, they accept all third class men as brahmanas. Any sannyasis or brahmanas already initiated who fail to pass the exams will be considered low class or less qualified.

 

 

 

That is a supposed quote from Srila Prabhupada sent out in a letter from Prabhupadas secretary, there is no way to tell if those are Prabhupadas words or not. The context of the above quote from the letter was:

 

 

Quote:

Srila Prabhupada has requested me to write you in regard to the above examinations which he wishes to institute. Here in India many persons often criticise our sannyasis and brahmanas as being unqualified due to insufficient knowledge of the scriptures.

 

 

 

So it's not that Prabhupada was supposedly asking for these tests in order to determine if someone was a qualified Brahmana or Sannyasi, rather he was supposedly concerned about bad publicity due to his disciples being uneducated in the sastra. That was because at that time most of his disciples had been devotees for less then 5 years, and very few had been devotees for at most 10 years. He seemed to have been concerned with the reputation of ISKCON in India among other religious organizations because of the lack of experience of his disciples. He was creating an ad hoc solution to what he perceived as a problem of public ridicule. Nothing more.

 

The irony here is that a so called Brahmana, a so called leader among Brahmanas, a so called leader of Brahmanas proposing a standard of knowledge which should be enforced on ISKCON'S membership, is in fact completely in ignorance of what he is attempting to show that he is an authority about. ISKCON Sannyasis are no longer twenty year olds with only a few years of sadhana bhakti under their belts. ISKCON is no longer in the position of having to fear public ridicule because of the sastric ignorance of it's Sannyasis and Brahmanas. Those days are long past. So the tests that Prabhupada supposedly wanted, are no longer a necessity because the cause for their need, is no longer applicable.

 

But it doesn't stop there.

 

He goes on to make a litany of errors in his calling for "reform". He says that ISKCON should be a Brahmana society. He says that ISKCON should be dependent on donations like a Brahmana is supposed to be doing. He says that the Varnashrama Prabhupada proposed is all about agrarian lifestyles, and that therefore Varnashrama has not worked in ISKCON because the farm communities become "suburban" communities, instead of agrarian luddite communes.

 

All of that is wrong. His idea of what Prabhupada wanted for ISKCON vis-a-vis Varnashrama is not what Prabhupada himself has said. If Prabhupada said he wanted to implement Varnashrama in ISKCON then how can Ravindra Swarupa say that ISKCON should be Brahminically based and sustain itself off of donations in what he considers to be the Brahminical fashion?

 

Varnashrama means 4 varnas. Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya, Sudra. If Ravindra were to take that test he suggests "Brahmanas" take, then I'm afraid we would all have to shun him as being some kind of spiritual leper, as he himself advises, for missing the obvious meaning of the concept of Varnashrama. On the one hand he speaks about the need to implement Varnashrama in ISKCON, yet at the same time he says that ISKCON should live by strictly Braminical standards.

 

You can't have it both ways. It's like saying society needs to be ruled by democratic standards, but there will be not be any voting allowed. We need to go on a diet to lose weight, and we should therefore eat ice cream and donuts all day long.

 

Varnashrama does not equal Brahminical. Varnashrama is not all about agrarian luddite communes. Varnashrama is about people living life and working according to their own nature, it's about doing what comes naturally, and doing it for God. In the case of ISKCON the implications are that ISKCON should not be a strictly Brahminical society, it should not be dependent soley on donations like a begger Brahmana of old, it should not be something which is restricted to agrarian luddite communes.

 

What it should be is a normalized social order with a common purpose, rather then a dysfunctional social order with an unsustainable purpose. ISKCON has always been a dysfunctional social order exactly because of the type of thinking that Ravindra has displayed. His way of thinking is quite common among many vaisnavas. It shows in many ways the truth of the fact that most people are not Brahminical by nature. When non-Brahmanas act in the capacity of Brahmanas, they simply make of mess of everything. Up becomes down, right becomes wrong.

 

Here are some words from Prabhupada from his last days with us.

 

 

 

Quote:

Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977

 

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

 

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

 

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

 

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world.

 

That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

 

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

 

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

 

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.

 

Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

 

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

 

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that."

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

 

Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hiratah samsiddhim labhate narah sva-karma-niratah siddhim yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

 

Hari-Sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...

 

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect.

 

So why artificially he should be called a brahmana?

 

Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll become perfect. Perfection is not checked.

 

But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become ludicrous?

 

That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Lord Visnu can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas.

 

Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life.

 

Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous?

 

Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

 

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

 

Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something. Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order.

 

Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer.

 

Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama.

 

Hari-Sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

 

Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal." Ideal. We are giving the ideal. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show ... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

 

Hari-Sauri: No.

 

Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

 

Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...

 

Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.

 

Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.

 

[Guest guest]

Ravindra Swarupa is completely wrong.

 

He says that ISKCON should be all about the Brahminical dependence on donations, that Varnashrama cannot work in an industrial society, that ISKCON's version of varnashrama needs to be all about self sufficient agrarian communities, that ISKCON needs to enforce sastric testing standards because:

 

 

Quote:

This will prevent our Society from degrading to the level of so many other institutions where, in order to maintain the Temple, they accept all third class men as brahmanas. Any sannyasis or brahmanas already initiated who fail to pass the exams will be considered low class or less qualified.

 

 

 

And he says that the real problem that is keeping Varnashrama from succeeding in ISKCON is:

 

 

 

Quote:

I suspect a necessary condition for its future success will be the contribution of genuine brahmanas, whose creation is still ISKCON’s unfulfilled mission.

 

My proposal, therefore, for establishing varnasrama-dharma in ISKCON, and even in the society at large, is first of all to take the first step and do everything needed to form a proper community of brahmanas.

 

 

 

 

It's amazing to me that a person with a top leadership position in ISKCON is advocating sastric tests as a qualifier for Sannyasa and Brahmana status, and yet at the same time shows such a dismal understanding of what Prabhupada actually said he wanted in regards to Varnashrama in ISKCON.

 

First off the idea that a Sannyasi or Brahmana is or is not qualified based upon a written test is ludicrous. Any non Brahmana can study the sastra and be able to pass any sastric test if that person is so inclined. There is no shortage of people who have the ability to study and memorize philosophy without having the nature of a Brahmana or having the nature of a Sannyasi.

 

What are those tests comprised of? They will be nothing more then looking to see if the person taking the test has done his or her homework. Imagine being in College and taking a class on German philosophers of the 19th century, if you passed your course, you were then awarded status as the spiritual leader of society. You could have no qualities of a Brahmana, you may be a total hedonist, but since you had good study habits, or were good at cheating, you passed the course and now you were accepted by everyone in society as some kind of superior human. Meanwhile the people who were actually qualified based on those persons inherent nature, if they were not good students, did not have time to study or were not very good at memorizing data from books, or were not inclined to cheat, and then failed the course, they should then be seen as:

 

 

Quote:

This will prevent our Society from degrading to the level of so many other institutions where, in order to maintain the Temple, they accept all third class men as brahmanas. Any sannyasis or brahmanas already initiated who fail to pass the exams will be considered low class or less qualified.

 

 

 

That is a supposed quote from Srila Prabhupada sent out in a letter from Prabhupadas secretary, there is no way to tell if those are Prabhupadas words or not. The context of the above quote from the letter was:

 

 

Quote:

Srila Prabhupada has requested me to write you in regard to the above examinations which he wishes to institute. Here in India many persons often criticise our sannyasis and brahmanas as being unqualified due to insufficient knowledge of the scriptures.

 

 

 

So it's not that Prabhupada was supposedly asking for these tests in order to determine if someone was a qualified Brahmana or Sannyasi, rather he was supposedly concerned about bad publicity due to his disciples being uneducated in the sastra. That was because at that time most of his disciples had been devotees for less then 5 years, and very few had been devotees for at most 10 years. He seemed to have been concerned with the reputation of ISKCON in India among other religious organizations because of the lack of experience of his disciples. He was creating an ad hoc solution to what he perceived as a problem of public ridicule. Nothing more.

 

The irony here is that a so called Brahmana, a so called leader among Brahmanas, a so called leader of Brahmanas proposing a standard of knowledge which should be enforced on ISKCON'S membership, is in fact completely in ignorance of what he is attempting to show that he is an authority about. ISKCON Sannyasis are no longer twenty year olds with only a few years of sadhana bhakti under their belts. ISKCON is no longer in the position of having to fear public ridicule because of the sastric ignorance of it's Sannyasis and Brahmanas. Those days are long past. So the tests that Prabhupada supposedly wanted, are no longer a necessity because the cause for their need, is no longer applicable.

 

But it doesn't stop there.

 

He goes on to make a litany of errors in his calling for "reform". He says that ISKCON should be a Brahmana society. He says that ISKCON should be dependent on donations like a Brahmana is supposed to be doing. He says that the Varnashrama Prabhupada proposed is all about agrarian lifestyles, and that therefore Varnashrama has not worked in ISKCON because the farm communities become "suburban" communities, instead of agrarian luddite communes.

 

All of that is wrong. His idea of what Prabhupada wanted for ISKCON vis-a-vis Varnashrama is not what Prabhupada himself has said. If Prabhupada said he wanted to implement Varnashrama in ISKCON then how can Ravindra Swarupa say that ISKCON should be Brahminically based and sustain itself off of donations in what he considers to be the Brahminical fashion?

 

Varnashrama means 4 varnas. Brahmana, Ksatriya, Vaisya, Sudra. If Ravindra were to take that test he suggests "Brahmanas" take, then I'm afraid we would all have to shun him as being some kind of spiritual leper, as he himself advises, for missing the obvious meaning of the concept of Varnashrama. On the one hand he speaks about the need to implement Varnashrama in ISKCON, yet at the same time he says that ISKCON should live by strictly Braminical standards.

 

You can't have it both ways. It's like saying society needs to be ruled by democratic standards, but there will be not be any voting allowed. We need to go on a diet to lose weight, and we should therefore eat ice cream and donuts all day long.

 

Varnashrama does not equal Brahminical. Varnashrama is not all about agrarian luddite communes. Varnashrama is about people living life and working according to their own nature, it's about doing what comes naturally, and doing it for God. In the case of ISKCON the implications are that ISKCON should not be a strictly Brahminical society, it should not be dependent soley on donations like a begger Brahmana of old, it should not be something which is restricted to agrarian luddite communes.

 

What it should be is a normalized social order with a common purpose, rather then a dysfunctional social order with an unsustainable purpose. ISKCON has always been a dysfunctional social order exactly because of the type of thinking that Ravindra has displayed. His way of thinking is quite common among many vaisnavas. It shows in many ways the truth of the fact that most people are not Brahminical by nature. When non-Brahmanas act in the capacity of Brahmanas, they simply make of mess of everything. Up becomes down, right becomes wrong.

 

Here are some words from Prabhupada from his last days with us.

 

 

 

Quote:

Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977

 

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

 

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

 

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

 

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world.

 

That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

 

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

 

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

 

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.

 

Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

 

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

 

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that."

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

 

Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hiratah samsiddhim labhate narah sva-karma-niratah siddhim yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

 

Hari-Sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...

 

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect.

 

So why artificially he should be called a brahmana?

 

Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll become perfect. Perfection is not checked.

 

But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and become ludicrous?

 

That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Lord Visnu can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas.

 

Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life.

 

Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous?

 

Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

 

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

 

Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something. Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order.

 

Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer.

 

Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama.

 

Hari-Sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

 

Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal." Ideal. We are giving the ideal. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show ... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

 

Hari-Sauri: No.

 

Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

 

Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...

 

Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.

 

Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.

 

[Guest guest]

If people are going to post stuff I wrote elsewhere, here, they should let it be known that they are the ones posting it. I didn't post the above post here. I did write it, but someone else posted it.

[Kulapavana 0]

"Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked."

 

 

that is the root of this problem. too many sudras and vaishyas pretending to be brahmanas and making a mess of our society. anyone who thinks sudras and vaishyas will actually implement varnashrama system is in deep ignorance:

 

even if they are sincere, they have no clue how to even begin...

[Kulapavana 0]

"Bhagavad Gita 18.42

 

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma-karma svabhava-jam

 

SYNONYMS

 

samah--peacefulness; damah--self-control; tapah--austerity; saucam--purity; ksantih--tolerance; arjavam--honesty; eva--certainly; ca--and; jnanam--knowledge; vijnanam--wisdom; astikyam--religiousness; brahma--of a brahmana; karma--duty; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature.

TRANSLATION

 

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work. "

 

 

 

so these "brahminical" exams will only cover jnanam? jnanis are dime a dozen...

[Gauracandra 1]

The problem is there is no objective standard as to the quality of an individual. A test, while its not perfect, is trying to objectively measure something. If we are talking purely occupational, here is how I would break it down:

 

Brahmana - teachers and priests. You either teach in a K-12, or in university or you are a full time pujari etc... Otherwise you aren't a brahmana.

 

Ksatriya - military, police, fireman, or politician (city council, mayor, congressman, senator). If you aren't actively working protecting people or in government then you are not a Ksatriya.

 

Vaisya - Dairy industry, or employer of X number of people. I say there must be a number of employees before you can be considered a "businessman", else you could just have a craft. And white collar jobs do not make you a businessman (you are working for someone else).

 

Sudra - everyone else. This includes doctors, lawyers, architects, analyst, office manager, crafts people etc.... This is probably 80% of the population.

 

Now, I'm not sure but what is the purpose of such identification? I've just identified them, these already exist, though not classed as such. How does a doctor standing up and saying "I'm a sudra" benefit society? He is serving someone else. How does a white collar analyst standing up and saying "I'm a sudra" benefit society? He is what he is, he is doing his job. Seems to me a bit artificial. The only benefit I see is if there were training schools (and tests) to train people in each of these fields. How to be a teacher. How to be a police officer. How to start a business and employ others. How to do various service occupations.

[Kulapavana 0]

the main benefit of such a declaration would be that people who have no qualifications in a particular field (like management or interpretation of scriptural injunctions) would STOP PRETENDING they know what they are doing.

[Gauracandra 1]

 

the main benefit of such a declaration would be that people who have no qualifications in a particular field (like management or interpretation of scriptural injunctions) would STOP PRETENDING they know what they are doing.

 

 

 

Simply declaring oneself a Brahmana does not make one a brahmana. Shiva atleast is against giving tests. I'm not so much against the idea. It may not prove you are a brahmana but it proves you know atleast something.

 

For instance, to be a lawyer you have to pass the bar exam. To be a doctor, you have to have certain credentials. To be a Notary Public you have to go through various courses etc....

 

Now if there were a standardized education system, which had tests say in Sanskrit, scripture, etc... as well as an ethics board to review the actions of an individual (to make sure they maintain the brahminical standards), then if one said "I'm a brahmana. I've been certified by the Brahminical Society. I've passed a test on Sanskrit, one on ethics, one on rhetoric etc...." Then atleast it has some objective measurement. Is it perfect? No. You can't measure the simplicity of a person, though we can often see those who aren't simple. An ethics board might be able to review any candidate who wants to be part of this society, with referrals etc....

 

Now back to the question of Varna, I'm convinced the vast majority of people are shudras - including myself. Unfortunately these terms have become tinged with casteism and negative stereotypes (like shudras are dirty, foul mouthed etc....).

 

Based on my breakdown above I think I would have to be a shudra. I am not a priest nor a teacher - thus occupationally I am not a brahmin. I do not protect people nor work actively in government affairs - thus occupationally I am not a ksatriya. I do not own my own business nor do farming - thus I am not a Vaisya. So what does that leave me? I think the category of Shudra is a catchall for everyone else.

 

Now here are my qualifications. I have an MBA in finance and work in a white collar job. You might think that makes me a Vaisya (business oriented). But here is the difference. I don't think having a white collar job makes you a Vaisya. I'm just a corporate cog. I work for a multinational that probably has over 100,000 employees around the world. But Hilaire Belloc would call me I'm a "wage slave". I don't make my income, I earn it by salary.

 

A Vaisya is a business owner who employs others. He is not an employee who manages others. Thats how I see it atleast. If you are a white collar worker, you are just an employee of someone else. You serve your employer. Nor if I managed people would this make me a ksatriya. I would just be a slightly higher paid "wage slave" working for someone else.

 

My conclusion is people often think of shudra as being low class. It really is just everyone else. If you aren't a teacher/priest, if you aren't a protector/social governor, if you aren't a business owner or farmer, then you are a shudra.

 

This leaves the vast majority of all other occupations as shudra (even high paying ones like doctors). Its not a low class position, and we don't act low class, we just serve someone else.

 

So how can we use this? We can establish trust funds to specifically train people in each field. Brahmins would study philosophy, Latin/Sanskrit, rhetoric etc... Ksatriyas would study martial arts, military strategy, government and diplomacy. Vaisyas would study agriculture and business ownership. Shudras would have vocational training.

[Guest guest]

 

The problem is there is no objective standard as to the quality of an individual. A test, while its not perfect, is trying to objectively measure something. If we are talking purely occupational, here is how I would break it down:

 

 

 

 

SB 11.17.15: The various occupational and social divisions of human society appeared according to inferior and superior natures manifest in the situation of the individual's birth.

 

A person's varna is inherent and natural. As Krishna says it is manfifest in the situations of one's birth. That means that according to a person's past life his birth situation or nature in this life is a product of his destiny.

 

There need be no "objective standard". What this is all about is a person doing what he is good at, his or her natural inclination, and then doing that in conjunction with the arrangement of vedic society. What that means is that you do what you do according to the tenets given by Sri Krishna. Varnashrama is not about doing testing to try and figure out where people should be in the social order or what occupation they should be enagaged in. It is about doing what comes naturally and then following the prescribed activities for that varna, which Krishna mentions next.

 

 

Brahmana - teachers and priests. You either teach in a K-12, or in university or you are a full time pujari etc... Otherwise you aren't a brahmana.

 

 

 

SB 11.17.16: Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, cleanliness, satisfaction, tolerance, simple straightforwardness, devotion to Me, mercy and truthfulness are the natural qualities of the brahmanas.

 

So it's not that you have to be working in a specific occupation in order to be seen as a Brahmana or other varna. A Brahmana is a Brahmana because that is the person's nature. A Brahmana is still a Brahmana if he or she does not teach or do deity worship, and conversely if a person teaches or does deity worship that person is not automatically a Brahmana. There is a difference between what we call Brahmana initiation in ISKCON or mantra diksa and being a Brahmana by nature.

 

According to the sastra you cannot do deity worship unless you receive the scared thread, even if you are a naturally born Brahmana. So in ISKCON giving the mantra diksa initiation along with the sacred thread enables anyone to worship the deity according to sastric rules. You don't have to be a Brahmana by nature to worship the deity, you do need to receive mantra diksa. In ISKCON or other Gaudiya organization it doesn't matter if you are a Brahmana by birth, by nature, anyone can receive mantra diksa and the sacred thread and then do arcana in the temple.

 

Jiva Goswami writes about deity worship (archana) in Bhakti Sandarbha:

 

 

Now will be considered worship of the Lord (arcana), which begins with the invitation (avahana) to the Lord to appear. If one has faith in the path of worship, one should take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and ask questions of him. This is described in these words of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.3.48):

 

"Having obtained the mercy of his spiritual master, who reveals to the disciple the injunctions of Vedic scriptures, the devotee should worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the particular personal form of the Lord the devotee finds most attractive."

 

Although in the opinion of Srimad-Bhagavatam the path of worshipping the Deity, as it is described in the Pancaratras and other scriptures, is not compulsory, and without engaging in Deity worship one may attain the final goal of life by engaging in even only one of the nine processes of devotional service, processes that begin with surrender, nevertheless, in the opinion of they who follow the path of Narada Muni and other great sages, by accepting initiation from a bona fide spiritual master one attains a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a relationship established through the feet of one's spiritual master, and when one is thus initiated, the process of Deity worship is compulsory.

 

Therefore in the Agama-sastra it is said:

 

Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures know this process as diksa.

 

It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything: body, mind and intelligence, one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him.

 

The words "divyam jnanam" (transcendental knowledge) here refers to the descriptions of the Lord's transcendental form in sacred mantras. Chanting those mantras establishes a relationship with the Supreme Lord. This is explained in the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda's description of the eight-syllable mantra. Thus for wealthy householders the path of Deity worship is most important.(...)

 

General speaking, for householders the path of Deity worship (arcana) is better than the path of direct service (paricarya). This is because of the many rules to be followed in the path of Deity worship. Householders should offer yajnas to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not to the demigods. By worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead all the demigods are automatically pleased in the same way that the branches, leaves, and other parts of a tree are nourished when water is given to the tree's root. Failure to worship the Lord in this way is a great fault for a householder.(...)

 

If one is not able or qualified to engage in Deity worship, then the Agni Purana gives this prescription:

 

"One who with faith and devotion gazes at Lord Hari after or while the Lord is worshipped, pleases the Lord. That devotee attains the benefits of practicing yoga."

 

The word "yoga" here means the yoga or devotional service as is described in the Pancaratras and other Vaisnava scriptures. In some circumstances it is appropriate to perform Deity worship in meditation. This is described in the following statement of the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda:

 

"O beloved, everyone should meditate on worshipping the Deity of the Lord."

 

In the path of Deity worship one must first be initiated. Then there are many rules that must be followed. These rules are described in the scriptures.

 

Initiation is described in these words of the Agama-sastra:

 

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

 

The rules of scripture are described in these words of the Visnu-rahasya:

 

"By following the rules of worship and respectfully worshipping the Deity of Lord Hari, one attains a result a hundred times better than the result of worshipping in ignorance of the rules."

 

Here the word "bhaktya" means "with great respect". One who worships in this way attains a result a hundred times greater. One who does not worship in this way does not attain such a result. That is the meaning here. The rules of worship are understood according to the teachings of the Vaisnava-sampradaya.(...)

 

The substance of all the Vedic mantras is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. Every mantra begins with the prefix nama Om and eventually addresses by name the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By the supreme will of the Lord there is a specific potency in each and every mantra chanted by great sages like Narada Muni and other rsis.

 

Chanting the holy name of the Lord immediately renovates the transcendental relationship of the living being with the Supreme Lord. To chant the holy name of the Lord one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of connecting or linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord.

 

The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life.

 

In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditional life. Thus Narada in his pancaratriki vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshipping the Deity in the temple are essential.

 

 

 

 

From Gauracandra:

 

 

Ksatriya - military, police, fireman, or politician (city council, mayor, congressman, senator). If you aren't actively working protecting people or in government then you are not a Ksatriya.

 

 

 

SB 11.17.17: Dynamic power, bodily strength, determination, heroism, tolerance, generosity, great endeavor, steadiness, devotion to the brahmanas and leadership are the natural qualities of the ksatriyas.

 

Again the occupation does not make the man. A Ksatriya is a natural leader and warrior. It has nothing to do with physical strength alone, or leadership abilities alone, or any single specific quality of a Ksatriya. A sudra may be strong and able to fight or act as a police man or fireman, a vaisya may be able to act as a politician, a real Ksatriya has all of the above qualities mentioned by Krishna.

 

 

Vaisya - Dairy industry, or employer of X number of people. I say there must be a number of employees before you can be considered a "businessman", else you could just have a craft. And white collar jobs do not make you a businessman (you are working for someone else).

 

 

 

SB 11.17.18: Faith in Vedic civilization, dedication to charity, freedom from hypocrisy, service to the brahmanas and perpetually desiring to accumulate more money are the natural qualities of the vaisyas.

 

Again it is not the occupation that determines your varna.

 

 

Sudra - everyone else. This includes doctors, lawyers, architects, analyst, office manager, crafts people etc.... This is probably 80% of the population.

 

 

 

SB 11.17.19: Service without duplicity to the brahmanas, cows, demigods and other worshipable personalities, and complete satisfaction with whatever income is obtained in such service, are the natural qualities of sudras.

 

SB 11.17.20: Dirtiness, dishonesty, thievery, faithlessness, useless quarrel, lust, anger and hankering constitute the nature of those in the lowest position outside the varnasrama system.

 

SB 11.17.21: Nonviolence, truthfulness, honesty, desire for the happiness and welfare of all others and freedom from lust, anger and greed constitute duties for all members of society.

 

Not everyone is considered to be within the varnashrama system.

 

 

Now, I'm not sure but what is the purpose of such identification? I've just identified them, these already exist, though not classed as such. How does a doctor standing up and saying "I'm a sudra" benefit society? He is serving someone else. How does a white collar analyst standing up and saying "I'm a sudra" benefit society? He is what he is, he is doing his job. Seems to me a bit artificial. The only benefit I see is if there were training schools (and tests) to train people in each of these fields. How to be a teacher. How to be a police officer. How to start a business and employ others. How to do various service occupations.

 

 

 

The varnashrama system is not about identifying a person's varna. It is about following prescribed activities given in the sastra for each varna. Most important is the service to the Brahmanas. Krishna mentions that the duty of every varna is to serve the Brahmanas. This is all about the elevation of people to the transcendental plane.

 

The purpose of varnashrama is to have people take part in transcendental activities. Hearing and serving Brahmanas, deity worship, putting on festivals, Kirtan, Bhajan, hearing from sastra, etc. It is all about creating a social order around devotional activities.

 

 

SB 11.29.1: Sri Uddhava said: My dear Lord Acyuta, I fear that the method of yoga described by You is very difficult for one who cannot control his mind. Therefore please explain to me in simple terms how someone can more easily execute it.

 

SB 11.29.2: O lotus-eyed Lord, generally those yogis who try to steady the mind experience frustration because of their inability to perfect the state of trance. Thus they weary in their attempt to bring the mind under control.

 

SB 11.29.3: Therefore, O lotus-eyed Lord of the universe, swanlike men happily take shelter of Your lotus feet, the source of all transcendental ecstasy. But those who take pride in their accomplishments in yoga and karma fail to take shelter of You and are defeated by Your illusory energy.

 

SB 11.29.4: My dear infallible Lord, it is not very astonishing that You intimately approach Your servants who have taken exclusive shelter of You. After all, during Your appearance as Lord Ramacandra, even while great demigods like Brahma were vying to place the effulgent tips of their helmets upon the cushion where Your lotus feet rested, You displayed special affection for monkeys such as Hanuman because they had taken exclusive shelter of You.

 

SB 11.29.5: Who, then, could dare reject You, the very Soul, the most dear object of worship, and the Supreme Lord of all -- You who give all possible perfections to the devotees who take shelter of You? Who could be so ungrateful, knowing the benefits You bestow? Who would reject You and accept something for the sake of material enjoyment, which simply leads to forgetfulness of You? And what lack is there for us who are engaged in the service of the dust of Your lotus feet?

 

SB 11.29.6: O my Lord! Transcendental poets and experts in spiritual science could not fully express their indebtedness to You, even if they were endowed with the prolonged lifetime of Brahma, for You appear in two features -- externally as the acarya and internally as the Supersoul -- to deliver the embodied living being by directing him how to come to You.

 

SB 11.29.7: Sukadeva Gosvami said: Thus questioned by the most affectionate Uddhava, Lord Krsna, the supreme controller of all controllers, who takes the entire universe as His plaything and assumes the three forms of Brahma, Visnu and Siva, began to reply, lovingly displaying His all-attractive smile.

 

SB 11.29.8: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Yes, I shall describe to you the principles of devotion to Me, by executing which a mortal human being will conquer unconquerable death.

 

SB 11.29.9: Always remembering Me, one should perform all his duties for Me without becoming impetuous. With mind and intelligence offered to Me, one should fix his mind in attraction to My devotional service.

 

SB 11.29.10: One should take shelter of holy places where My saintly devotees reside, and one should be guided by the exemplary activities of My devotees, who appear among the demigods, demons and human beings.

 

SB 11.29.11: Either alone or in public gatherings, with singing, dancing and other exhibitions of royal opulence, one should arrange to celebrate those holy days, ceremonies and festivals set aside specially for My worship.

 

SB 11.29.12: With a pure heart one should see Me, the Supreme Soul within all beings and also within oneself, to be both unblemished by anything material and also present everywhere, both externally and internally, just like the omnipresent sky.

 

SB 11.29.13-14: O brilliant Uddhava, one who thus views all living entities with the idea that I am present within each of them, and who by taking shelter of this divine knowledge offers due respect to everyone, is considered actually wise. Such a man sees equally the brahmana and the outcaste, the thief and the charitable promoter of brahminical culture, the sun and the tiny sparks of fire, the gentle and the cruel.

 

SB 11.29.15: For him who constantly meditates upon My presence within all persons, the bad tendencies of rivalry, envy and abusiveness, along with false ego, are very quickly destroyed.

 

SB 11.29.16: Disregarding the ridicule of one's companions, one should give up the bodily conception and its accompanying embarrassment. One should offer obeisances before all -- even the dogs, outcastes, cows and asses -- falling flat upon the ground like a rod.

 

SB 11.29.17: Until one has fully developed the ability to see Me within all living beings, one must continue to worship Me by this process with the activities of his speech, mind and body.

 

SB 11.29.18: By such transcendental knowledge of the all-pervading Personality of Godhead, one is able to see the Absolute Truth everywhere. Freed thus from all doubts, one gives up fruitive activities.

 

SB 11.29.19: Indeed, I consider this process -- using one's mind, words and bodily functions for realizing Me within all living beings -- to be the best possible method of spiritual enlightenment.

 

SB 11.29.20: My dear Uddhava, because I have personally established it, this process of devotional service unto Me is transcendental and free from any material motivation. Certainly a devotee never suffers even the slightest loss by adopting this process.

 

SB 11.29.21: O Uddhava, greatest of saints, in a dangerous situation an ordinary person cries, becomes fearful and laments, although such useless emotions do not change the situation. But activities offered to Me without personal motivation, even if they are externally useless, amount to the actual process of religion.

 

SB 11.29.22: This process is the supreme intelligence of the intelligent and the cleverness of the most clever, for by following it one can in this very life make use of the temporary and unreal to achieve Me, the eternal reality.

 

SB 11.29.23: Thus have I related to you -- both in brief and in detail -- a complete survey of the science of the Absolute Truth. Even for the demigods, this science is very difficult to comprehend.

 

SB 11.29.24: I have repeatedly spoken this knowledge to you with clear reasoning. Anyone who properly understands it will become free from all doubts and attain liberation.

 

SB 11.29.25: Anyone who fixes his attention on these clear answers to your questions will attain to the eternal, confidential goal of the Vedas -- the Supreme Absolute Truth.

 

SB 11.29.26: One who liberally disseminates this knowledge among My devotees is the bestower of the Absolute Truth, and to him I give My very own self.

 

SB 11.29.27: He who loudly recites this supreme knowledge, which is the most lucid and purifying, becomes purified day by day, for he reveals Me to others with the lamp of transcendental knowledge.

 

SB 11.29.28: Anyone who regularly listens to this knowledge with faith and attention, all the while engaging in My pure devotional service, will never become bound by the reactions of material work.

 

 

 

In ISKCON there have been many theories about what to do to implement varnashrama. Prabhupada mentioned at one time a varnashrama college system with every temple having a branch to train people. Mistakingly devotees usually think this means training people in specific occupations. What it really means is training people in their duties under the varnashrama code of ethics and prescribed spiritual activities. Not occupational training, but instead training people what they should do in order to be living a life according to sastric duties.

 

Jiva Goswami mentions these:

 

 

Thus for wealthy householders the path of Deity worship is most important.

 

The sages tell Maharaja Vasudeva (Srimad Bhagavatam 10.84.37):

 

"This is the most auspicious path of progress for a religious householder of the twice-born orders: to faithfully worship the Personality of Godhead with his uncontaminated possessions which have been acquired by just means."

 

A wealthy householder who acts like a penniless person and seeks to serve the Lord only by meditating on Him or performing similar services and not by spending money for the cause of the Lord is a hypocrite and a miser. Such a person is either materialistic or lazy. He is at fault because he does not have faith in the Lord.

 

Such a person is at risk of falling down, as is explained in these words (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.38):

 

"Only those who render unreserved, uninterrupted, favourable service unto the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, who carries the wheel of the chariot in His hand, can know the creator of the universe in His full glory, power and transcendence."

 

General speaking, for householders the path of Deity worship (arcana) is better than the path of direct service (paricarya). This is because of the many rules to be followed in the path of Deity worship. Householders should offer yajnas to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and not to the demigods. By worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead all the demigods are automatically pleased in the same way that the branches, leaves, and other parts of a tree are nourished when water is given to the tree's root. Failure to worship the Lord in this way is a great fault for a householder.

 

In the Skanda Purana, Sri Prahlada explains: "O King, do not eat in the home of one who does not worship the Deity of Lord Krsna. The food there is not fit to be eaten."(...)

 

 

The rules of scripture are described in these words of the Visnu-rahasya:

 

"By following the rules of worship and respectfully worshipping the Deity of Lord Hari, one attains a result a hundred times better than the result of worshipping in ignorance of the rules."

 

Here the word "bhaktya" means "with great respect". One who worships in this way attains a result a hundred times greater. One who does not worship in this way does not attain such a result. That is the meaning here. The rules of worship are understood according to the teachings of the Vaisnava-sampradaya.

 

In the Visnu-rahasya it is said:

 

"One should accept words of teaching offered by persons who always worship Lord Visnu with their body, mind, words and deeds. Such persons are like Lord Visnu Himself."

 

In the Kurma Purana, it is said:

 

"One should ask questions of saintly Vaisnava brahmanas learned in the Vaisnava scriptures, acting properly, and firm in their vows. One should carefully follow what they teach."

 

This is described in the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.21):

 

"In performing his prescribed duties as king, Maharaja Ambarisa always offered the results of his royal activities to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, who is the enjoyer of everything and is beyond the perception of material senses. He certainly took advice from brahmanas who were faithful devotees of the Lord, and thus he ruled the planet earth without difficulty."

 

 

 

 

 

 

For ISKCON in my opinion this would be best accomplished by fostering communities of people without the insistence on everyone following the same Brahminical standards of a monks existence. That type of demand which is standard throughout ISKCON is not practical if you seek to create a community of people living their lives devoted to taking part and contributing in a varnashrama social milieu. As Prabhupada has said only 5% of the population are Brahmanas by nature. A varnashrama community cannot succeed if the 95% of the people who are not Brahmanas are expected to live their lives according to the standards of a Brahmana monk.

 

Varnashrama is all about gradual elevation through taking part in the vedic social milieu. If everyone is forced to try and act on the very highest level, then that is not varnashrama.

 

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousnessthat "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that."

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

 

Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hiratah samsiddhim labhate narah sva-karma-niratah siddhim yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked

 

 

 

From Prabhupada's Gita:

 

 

It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though they may be faultily, than another's duties. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

 

PURPORT

 

One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Krsna consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Prescribed duties complement one's psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature.

 

Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master, for the transcendental service of Krsna. But both materially or spiritually, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another's prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer.

 

When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for particular situations and should not imitate others. For example, a brahmana, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a ksatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent.

 

As such, for a ksatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brahmana who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly.

 

However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

 

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply.

 

For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Here Prabhupada describes what Krishna also mentions in the Bhagavatam. That is that a person who is self realized, on the transcendental plane of consciousness, regardless of his or her inherently born nature, they can play the role of a Brahmana because they have attained to the highest perfection. That is also what Sri Caitanya teaches:

 

 

 

 

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

 

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

 

 

It does not matter whether a person is a vipra [learned scholar in Vedic wisdom] or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life -- if he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master.

 

 

 

 

Of course many people think this means that anyone who can read and learn from a book, if that book is the Bhagavatam, that they are therefore transcendental to varnashrama, automatically a brahmana, and able to have the position of spiritual master over anyone.

 

That is not what Mahaprabhu is saying. That verse is spoken to Ramananda Raya by Sri Caitanya after He asked Ramananda to speak the philosophy of Radha Krishna tattva to him.

 

 

 

Sri Caitanya - "Kindly explain the transcendental features of Krsna and Srimati Radharani. Also explain the truth of transcendental mellows and the transcendental form of love of Godhead.

 

Kindly explain all these truths to Me. But for yourself, no one can ascertain them."

 

Sri Ramananda Raya replied, "I do not know anything about this. I simply vibrate the sound You make me speak.

 

I simply repeat like a parrot whatever instructions You have given me. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. Who can understand Your dramatic performances?

 

You inspire me within the heart and make me speak with the tongue. I do not know whether I am speaking well or badly."

 

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am a Mayavadi in the renounced order of life, and I do not even know what transcendental loving service to the Lord is. I simply float in the ocean of Mayavada philosophy.

 

Due to the association of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, My mind became enlightened. Therefore I asked him about the truths of transcendental loving service to Krsna.

 

Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya told me, 'I do not actually know about the topics of Lord Krsna. They are all known only to Ramananda Raya, but he is not present here.'"

 

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "After hearing about your glories, I have come to your place. But you are offering Me words of praise out of respect for a sannyasi, one in the renounced order of life.

 

Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra -- regardless of what he is -- he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna.

 

 

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a Sannyasi, the position of spiritual master to society. Yet he was asking a householder to act as his teacher. He claimed that he was a mayavadi without knowledge of Radha Krishna, so he came to a person lower then himself in the social order to gain spiritual knowledge. But Ramananda balked and claimed that this must be a joke, "you are God" he is saying, "who or what am I but your puppet?".

 

Mahaprabhu then says that it doesn't matter if you are a sannyasi, or a scholarly intellectual, or even if you work with your hands, if you have full knowledge of Radha Krishna tattva then you are qualified to be a spiritual master. And in this way he made Ramananda preach Radha Krishna tattva to Him.

 

So since a Vaisnava with complete knowledge of Krishna tattva is considered automatically to be a Brahmana and also to be above everyone else in the Varnashrama system, transcendental to Varnashrama, then many devotees think that because they are devotees that they are automatically Brahmanas, and automatically transcendental to the varnashrama system, and superior to everyone else.

 

But that is not the true meaning of what Mahaprabhu said to Ramananda Raya.

 

Sri Caitanya was sent to Ramananda by Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, the great leader of the mayavadi sannyasis who were prominent in India at that time. So Sri Caitanya was not just going to anyone to hear about Krishna tattva, he was going to someone recommended as an expert by one of India's leading sadhus.

 

Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary devotee. He was one of Mahaprabhus closest associates, in fact probably the closest. Ramananda Raya was the very highest level vaisnava. Mahaprabhu specifically said:

 

 

 

"Kindly explain all these truths to Me. But for yourself, no one can ascertain them."

 

 

 

 

So Mahaprabhu was not saying that just anyone who is a devotee is an expert in Krishna tattva and able to be a Guru, he made it clear that the position he was speaking about was so rare that besides Ramananda Raya, there was no one else. People like Ramananda Raya, who have attained to the level of atmarama, self realized souls, they are automatically Brahmanas, they are automatically transcendental to varnashrama, they are above everyone else. Not just someone who can repeat what he has read in the Gita and chants Hare Krishna.

 

Only the self realized highest level vaisnava automatically transcends varnashrama. The devotees whom Prabhupada described in the above as:

 

 

However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

 

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply.

 

 

 

The devotee on that level is what Sri Caitanya is describing:

 

 

 

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

 

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

 

 

It does not matter whether a person is a vipra [learned scholar in Vedic wisdom] or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life -- if he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master.

 

 

 

So artifically a person cannot try and act on that level. That was what Srila Prabhupada is saying in the above quotes in his conversation with Satsvarupa and Hari Sauri.

 

The devotees were saying how they were creatig vaisnavas who were transcendental to varnashrama, automatically brahmanas or higher then brahmanas. Prabhupada said:

 

 

Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down. (...)

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that."

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

 

 

[Kulapavana 0]

if you consider yourself a sudra (altough I'm NOT entirely convinced that this is indeed your material nature) it would seem natural that you should stop trying to interpret this subject matter (implementation of the varnashrama dharma system) yourself, and humbly accept the theoretical vision of the brahmanas and the practical vision of the kshatriyas.

 

after all, each material nature is best suited for a particular type of work.

[Gauracandra 1]

I’ve met many devotees who openly declare their Varna as brahmana or ksatriya and yet if you look honestly they are neither. I’ve only met one truly strict brahmana (teaches for no pay, simply for the love of teaching). I’ve never met a single “ksatriya” who is in the occupation of protecting or governing society. Its easy to declare oneself in the upper tiers (its natural to think more highly of oneself) but what is ones actual occupation (what do we do not what we say). I certainly will consult this one true Brahmin I know, and if I ever meet a true ksatriya I’ll take his input as well. Until then I see no harm in brainstorming ideas.

[theist 1]

Anyone familar with Gaurachandra's posts over the years will never agree to call such a thoughtful man a sudra.

 

As for myself, I could not care less about such labels. Both from a material or a spiritual perspective. What would be helpful is to have a general understanding of what type of work comes most naturally to and thus would most suitable for your own karma/yoga program. The bhakti practices are rather universal. For this consulting with a more advanced and experienced practioner can be very helpful.

 

Basically I have tendancies that run a wide spectrum, from subhuman on up and thus do not fit easily into any category. Plus for anyone consciously trying to be a transcendentalists over identifying with some varna seems a stumbling block.

 

But we should be able to see when some mode is very prominent in someone. Maybe he hasn't rececived basic training in how to spiritualize it but stills exhibits the characteristics.

 

Curtis Sliwa and his Guardian Angels is a good example. Ksatriya lain and simple. It is obvious Prabhupada wanted his disciples to be able to teach such a person how to spiritualize that tendency without trying to repress it.

[Kulapavana 0]

maybe you are confusing the "true" varna with the "ideal" varna or the "pure" varna.

 

and again: your current occupation may have little to do with your actual varna.

 

to give you an example:

 

the way I see my varna (material nature) is 60% kshatriya, 30% brahmana and 10% vaishya. we are all mixed, but usually one varna dominates and becomes our "official" social designation. also - we are most happy when engaged according to our dominating varna.

 

I work as a manager (kshatriya) of a scientific institution (analytical laboratory), but I do see myself as a scientist (brahmana) as well - and I often work in that capacity.

 

in my work I see some brahminical type scientists as well as some sudra types - it is quite easy for me (after some time) to tell who's who.

[krsna 3]

From Prabhupada's Gita:

 

 

QUOTE

It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though they may be faultily, than another's duties. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

 

PURPORT

 

One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Krsna consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Prescribed duties complement one's psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature.

 

Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master, for the transcendental service of Krsna. But both materially or spiritually, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another's prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer.

 

When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for particular situations and should not imitate others. For example, a brahmana, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a ksatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent.

 

As such, for a ksatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brahmana who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly.

 

However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

 

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply.

 

For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

Here Prabhupada describes what Krishna also mentions in the Bhagavatam. That is that a person who is self realized, on the transcendental plane of consciousness, regardless of his or her inherently born nature, they can play the role of a Brahmana because they have attained to the highest perfection. That is also what Sri Caitanya teaches:

 

 

 

QUOTE

 

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

 

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

 

 

It does not matter whether a person is a vipra [learned scholar in Vedic wisdom] or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life -- if he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master.

 

 

 

 

Of course many people think this means that anyone who can read and learn from a book, if that book is the Bhagavatam, that they are therefore transcendental to varnashrama, automatically a brahmana, and able to have the position of spiritual master over anyone.

 

That is not what Mahaprabhu is saying. That verse is spoken to Ramananda Raya by Sri Caitanya after He asked Ramananda to speak the philosophy of Radha Krishna tattva to him.

 

 

QUOTE

 

Sri Caitanya - "Kindly explain the transcendental features of Krsna and Srimati Radharani. Also explain the truth of transcendental mellows and the transcendental form of love of Godhead.

 

Kindly explain all these truths to Me. But for yourself, no one can ascertain them."

 

Sri Ramananda Raya replied, "I do not know anything about this. I simply vibrate the sound You make me speak.

 

I simply repeat like a parrot whatever instructions You have given me. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. Who can understand Your dramatic performances?

 

You inspire me within the heart and make me speak with the tongue. I do not know whether I am speaking well or badly."

 

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am a Mayavadi in the renounced order of life, and I do not even know what transcendental loving service to the Lord is. I simply float in the ocean of Mayavada philosophy.

 

Due to the association of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, My mind became enlightened. Therefore I asked him about the truths of transcendental loving service to Krsna.

 

Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya told me, 'I do not actually know about the topics of Lord Krsna. They are all known only to Ramananda Raya, but he is not present here.'"

 

Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "After hearing about your glories, I have come to your place. But you are offering Me words of praise out of respect for a sannyasi, one in the renounced order of life.

 

Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra -- regardless of what he is -- he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna.

 

 

 

 

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a Sannyasi, the position of spiritual master to society. Yet he was asking a householder to act as his teacher. He claimed that he was a mayavadi without knowledge of Radha Krishna, so he came to a person lower then himself in the social order to gain spiritual knowledge. But Ramananda balked and claimed that this must be a joke, "you are God" he is saying, "who or what am I but your puppet?".

 

Mahaprabhu then said that it doesn't matter if you are a sannyasi, or a scholarly intellectual, or even if you work with your hands, if you have full knowledge of Radha Krishna tattva then you are qualified to be a spiritual master for everyone. And in this way he made Ramananda preach Radha Krishna tattva to Him.

 

So since a Vaisnava with complete knowledge of Krishna tattva is considered automatically to be a Brahmana, and also to be above everyone else in the Varnashrama system, transcendental to Varnashrama, then many devotees think that because they are devotees that they are automatically Brahmanas and automatically transcendental to the varnashrama system, and superior to everyone else.

 

But that is not the true meaning of what Mahaprabhu said to Ramananda Raya.

 

Sri Caitanya was sent to Ramananda by Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, the great leader of the mayavadi sannyasis who were prominent in India at that time. So Sri Caitanya was not just going to anyone to hear about Krishna tattva, he was going to someone recommended as an expert by one of India's leading sadhus.

 

Ramananda Raya was not an ordinary devotee. He was one of Mahaprabhus closest associates, in fact probably the closest. Ramananda Raya was the very highest level vaisnava. Mahaprabhu specifically said:

 

 

QUOTE

 

 

"Kindly explain all these truths to Me. But for yourself, no one can ascertain them."

 

 

 

 

 

So Mahaprabhu was not saying that just anyone who is a devotee is an expert in Krishna tattva and able to be a Guru, he made it clear that the position he was speaking about was so rare that besides Ramananda Raya there was no one else. People like Ramananda Raya, who have attained to the level of atmarama, self realized souls, they are automatically Brahmanas, they are automatically transcendental to varnashrama, they are above everyone else. Not just someone who can repeat what he has read in the Gita, performs sadhana, and follows regulativ principles.

 

Only the self realized highest level vaisnava automatically transcends varnashrama. The devotees whom Prabhupada described in the above as:

 

QUOTE

 

 

However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

 

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply.

 

 

 

 

 

The devotee on that level is what Sri Caitanya is describing:

 

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

 

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

 

 

It does not matter whether a person is a vipra [learned scholar in Vedic wisdom] or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life -- if he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master.

 

 

 

So artifically a person cannot try and act on that level. That was what Srila Prabhupada is saying in the above quotes in his conversation with Satsvarupa and Hari Sauri.

 

The devotees were saying how they were creating vaisnavas who were transcendental to varnashrama, automatically brahmanas or higher then brahmanas.

 

That is still the type of teaching and thinking going on in ISKCON today. They teach that if anyone simply follows the process that they become transcendental to Varnashrama, they become elevated to brahmana status, they are superior to the duties of Varnashrama.

 

That kind of teaching is incorrect. While it is true that a self realized soul, a person in the highest stage of God consciousness is those things, everyone else is not. That was the point of Srila Prabhupada wanting ISKCON to implement Varnashrama. ISKCON should change their teaching from telling everyone that they are transcendental to Varnashrama if they follow sadhana bhakti faithfully, that they are brahmanas simply by following sadhana bhakti, into teaching that sadhana bhakti and the related temple activities are part and parcel of Varnashrama Dharma.

 

If you teach a natural vaisya or sudra or ksatriya that by following sadhana bhakti they have transcended their varna, that they have all become brahmanas, that they no longer need to live according to their nature, then artifically they will renounce their natural gifts, their natural talents, and try to live as a brahmana.

 

And that is exactly what has happened in ISKCON, over and over, for years and years.

 

In America there is an expression: Too many chiefs and not enough indians.

 

That refers to american native people called indians, the tribal leader is called a chief. If the tribe is comprised of all chiefs, and no other persons, then nothing will get done.

 

ISKCON encourages people to artificially renounce their social and economic position in favor of acting like a brahmana monk. That is what Srila Prabhupada wanted to change. He wrote:

 

 

QUOTE

 

 

Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...

 

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down. (...)

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Krsna." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American,I am Indian,I am this,I am that."

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

 

 

The way to implement Varnashrama in ISKCON is that people should be encouraged to do the work that they are naturally adept at. They should be encouraged to life their life within the Vedic social and religious milieu. They should not be told that they transcend everything automatically by engaging in sadhana bhakti or guru seva. That promotes the artificial renunciation of their natural prescribed lifestyle.

 

People need to be trained not in occupations, but in living and working according to their own nature, with the addition of Vedic social and religious duties and association.

 

So instead of constantly preaching about the suffering of the "material world" and the urgent need to leave it all behind and join the sankirtan mission, ISKCON needs to preach about adding sadhana bhakti, adding guru seva, adding sadhu sangha, adding archana, adding service to the brahmanas, adding going to and promoting spiritual festivals, to your life.

 

Do your prescribed duties, work according to your nature, but try and do it within the Vedic community. No need to renounce everything and try and act like a brahmana monk. That is for vey few, for those who have that as their nature. For eveyone else they should work in their natural mode, and with that work they should use their wealth to support the brahmanas.

 

So ISKCON as an organization is meant to be something different then simply an Ashrama for brahmana monks. Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to evolve into communities of every varna. Communities where the people are not all expected to live up to brahminical standards.

 

For example Mayapur, or any temple community:

 

Mayapur could be a community of people who are not all living under the expectations of monks in an ashrama. Instead, if it was a community of people who worked and lived according to their own nature, and used their wealth and talents to support their families as well as contribute to the spiritual activities of Mayapur, then that would be Varnashrama in ISKCON.

 

The Mayapur temple could itself establish a fund and be manned by experts who would give out loans and advice on how to start businesses. Then the temple itself would be a part owner of a business and could then have a sustainable fund for expansion for more businesses. If businesses flourish then that would attract more people into wanting to be a part of the community. ISKCON should facilitate business directly. Without a healthy vaisya community the whole thing cannot work.

 

In this way a community would grow and grow.

 

But it is absolutely essential that there are no enforced expectations on the people who wish to take part. You cannot demand that everyone live up to the highest brahminical standards. That will be unfeasible and will not work. No one should be expected to follow the level of sadhana or the level of renunciation that people follow in the brahmacari or sannyasa ashrama. There cannot be any enforcement nor social cajoling of brahmana standards on the people.

 

That is not Varnashrama.

 

So that is my vision of Varnashrama and how it can work in ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

Coversation between A.C.Bhaktivedanta and a few disicples in Mayapura&nbsp; 1977.

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce

the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical

platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama,

not everybody should become brahmana.

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being

raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

 

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get

brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

 

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Kulapavana 0]

well... it seems like the leaders of Iskcon still have a poor understanding of this issue /images/graemlins/wink.gif