What is the essence of this story?

[theist 1]

Is it necessary to except the all details of the story before one can accept the truth of the Srimad Bhagvatam?

 

Where does the central truth that is relevant to our own lives reside in these verses?

 

 

SB 6.9.1: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami continued: Visvarupa, who was engaged as the priest of the demigods, had three heads. He used one to drink the beverage soma-rasa, another to drink wine and the third to eat food. O King Parikshit, thus I have heard from authorities.

 

SB 6.9.2: O Maharaja Parikshit, the demigods were related to Visvarupa from his father's side, and therefore he visibly offered clarified butter in the fire while chanting mantras such as indraya idam svaha ["this is meant for King Indra"] and idam agnaye ["this is for the demigod of fire"]. He loudly chanted these mantras and offered each of the demigods his proper share.

 

SB 6.9.3: Although offering clarified butter in the sacrificial fire in the name of the demigods, without the knowledge of the demigods he also offered oblations to the demons because they were his relatives through his mother.

 

SB 6.9.4: Once upon a time, however, the King of heaven, Indra, understood that Visvarupa was secretly cheating the demigods by offering oblations on behalf of the demons. He became extremely afraid of being defeated by the demons, and in great anger at Visvarupa he cut Visvarupa's three heads from his shoulders.

 

SB 6.9.5: Thereafter, the head meant for drinking soma-rasa was transformed into a kapinjala [francolin partridge]. Similarly, the head meant for drinking wine was transformed into a kalavinka [sparrow], and the head meant for eating food became a tittiri [common partridge].

 

SB 6.9.6: Although Indra was so powerful that he could neutralize the sinful reactions for killing a brahmana, he repentantly accepted the burden of these reactions with folded hands. He suffered for one year, and then to purify himself he distributed the reactions for this sinful killing among the earth, water, trees and women.

 

SB 6.9.7: In return for King Indra's benediction that ditches in the earth would be filled automatically, the land accepted one fourth of the sinful reactions for killing a brahmana. Because of those sinful reactions, we find many deserts on the surface of the earth.

 

SB 6.9.8: In return for Indra's benediction that their branches and twigs would grow back when trimmed, the trees accepted one fourth of the reactions for killing a brahmana. These reactions are visible in the flowing of sap from trees. [Therefore one is forbidden to drink this sap.]

 

SB 6.9.9: In return for Lord Indra's benediction that they would be able to enjoy lusty desires continuously, even during pregnancy for as long as sex is not injurious to the embryo, women accepted one fourth of the sinful reactions. As a result of those reactions, women manifest the signs of menstruation every month.

 

SB 6.9.10: And in return for King Indra's benediction that water would increase the volume of other substances with which it was mixed, water accepted one fourth of the sinful reactions. Therefore there are bubbles and foam in water. When one collects water, these should be avoided.

 

SB 6.9.11: After Visvarupa was killed, his father, Tvashta, performed ritualistic ceremonies to kill Indra. He offered oblations in the sacrificial fire, saying, "O enemy of Indra, flourish to kill your enemy without delay."

 

SB 6.9.12: Thereafter, from the southern side of the sacrificial fire known as Anvaharya came a fearful personality who looked like the destroyer of the entire creation at the end of the millennium.

 

SB 6.9.13-17: Like arrows released in the four directions, the demon's body grew, day after day. Tall and blackish, he appeared like a burnt hill and was as lustrous as a bright array of clouds in the evening. The hair on the demon's body and his beard and moustache were the color of melted copper, and his eyes were piercing like the midday sun. He appeared unconquerable, as if holding the three worlds on the points of his blazing trident. Dancing and shouting with a loud voice, he made the entire surface of the earth tremble as if from an earthquake. As he yawned again and again, he seemed to be trying to swallow the whole sky with his mouth, which was as deep as a cave. He seemed to be licking up all the stars in the sky with his tongue and eating the entire universe with his long, sharp teeth. Seeing this gigantic demon, everyone, in great fear, ran here and there in all directions.

 

SB 6.9.18: That very fearful demon, who was actually the son of Tvashta, covered all the planetary systems by dint of austerity. Therefore he was named Vritra, or one who covers everything.

 

SB 6.9.19: The demigods, headed by Indra, charged the demon with their soldiers, striking him with their own transcendental bows and arrows and other weapons but Vritrasura swallowed all their weapons.

 

SB 6.9.20: Struck with wonder and disappointment upon seeing the strength of the demon, the demigods lost their own strength. Therefore they all met together to try to please the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, by worshiping Him.

 

SB 6.9.21: The demigods said: The three worlds are created by the five elements -- namely ether, air, fire, water and earth -- which are controlled by various demigods, beginning from Lord Brahma. Being very much afraid that the time factor will end our existence, we offer presentations unto time by performing our work as time dictates. The time factor himself, however, is afraid of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore let us now worship that Supreme Lord, who alone can give us full protection.

 

SB 6.9.22: Free from all material conceptions of existence and never wonder-struck by anything, the Lord is always jubilant and fully satisfied by His own spiritual perfection. He has no material designations, and therefore He is steady and unattached. That Supreme Personality of Godhead is the only shelter of everyone. Anyone desiring to be protected by others is certainly a great fool who desires to cross the sea by holding the tail of a dog.

 

 

[theist 1]

I find the statements concerning Visvaropa's heads turning into sparrows and patridges less then essential. The same with Indra distributing the sinful reactions to the Earth women etc.

 

But the prayers of the Demigods and the interchange between them and the Supreme Lord, to me, is the real teaching and essence of this chapter.

 

It feels good to not have to try and pretend (even to myself) that I believe it all in a literal fashion. It is no longer an issue either way. Nor can I see where one adds to or diminishes the essential teaching of the Bhagavatam. So I feel no pressure to try and persuade people of the literalness of Indra's actions.

 

More essence form the prayers by the demigods:

 

SB 6.9.23: The Manu named King Satyavrata formerly saved himself by tying the small boat of the entire world to the horn of the Matsya avatara, the fish incarnation. By the grace of the Matsya avatara, Manu saved himself from the great danger of the flood. May that same fish incarnation save us from the great and fearful danger caused by the son of Tvashta.

 

SB 6.9.24: In the beginning of creation, a tremendous wind caused fierce waves of inundating water. The great waves made such a horrible sound that Lord Brahma almost fell from his seat on the lotus into the water of devastation, but he was saved with the help of the Lord. Thus we also expect the Lord to protect us from this dangerous condition.

 

SB 6.9.25: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who created us by His external potency and by whose mercy we expand the creation of the universe, is always situated before us as the Supersoul, but we cannot see His form. We are unable to see Him because all of us think that we are separate and independent gods.

 

SB 6.9.26-27: By His inconceivable internal potency, the Supreme Personality of Godhead expands into various transcendental bodies as Vamanadeva, the incarnation of strength among the demigods; Parasurama, the incarnation among saints; Nrisimhadeva and Varaha, incarnations among animals; and Matsya and Kurma, incarnations among aquatics. He accepts various transcendental bodies among all types of living entities, and among human beings He especially appears as Lord Krishna and Lord Rama. By His causeless mercy, He protects the demigods, who are always harassed by the demons. He is the supreme worshipable Deity of all living entities. He is the supreme cause, represented as the male and female creative energies. Although different from this universe, He exists in His universal form [virat-rupa]. In our fearful condition, let us take shelter of Him, for we are sure that the Supreme Lord, the Supreme Soul, will give us His protection.

 

SB 6.9.28: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: My dear King, when all the demigods offered Him their prayers, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Hari, carrying His weapons, the conchshell, disc and club, appeared first within their hearts and then before them.

 

SB 6.9.29-30: Surrounding and serving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, were sixteen personal attendants, decorated with ornaments and appearing exactly like Him but without the mark of Srivatsa and the Kaustubha jewel. O King, when all the demigods saw the Supreme Lord in that posture, smiling with eyes like the petals of lotuses grown in autumn, they were overwhelmed with happiness and immediately fell down like rods, offering dandavats. Then they slowly rose and pleased the Lord by offering Him prayers.

 

SB 6.9.31: The demigods said: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, You are competent to give the results of sacrifice, and You are also the time factor that destroys all such results in due course. You are the one who releases the cakra to kill the demons. O Lord, who possesses many varieties of names, we offer our respectful obeisances unto You.

 

SB 6.9.32: O supreme controller, You control the three destinations [promotion to the heavenly planets, birth as a human being, and condemnation in hell], yet Your supreme abode is Vaikuntha-dhama. Since we appeared after You created this cosmic manifestation, Your activities are impossible for us to understand. We therefore have nothing to offer You but our humble obeisances.

 

SB 6.9.33: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Narayana, O Vasudeva, original person! O most exalted person, supreme experience, welfare personified! O supreme benediction, supremely merciful and changeless! O support of the cosmic manifestation, sole proprietor of all planetary systems, master of everything and husband of the goddess of fortune! Your Lordship is realized by the topmost sannyasis, who wander about the world to preach Krishna consciousness, fully absorbed in samadhi through bhakti-yoga. Because their minds are concentrated upon You, they can receive the conception of Your personality in their fully purified hearts. When the darkness in their hearts is completely eradicated and You are revealed to them, the transcendental bliss they enjoy is the transcendental form of Your Lordship. No one but such persons can realize You. Therefore we simply offer You our respectful obeisances.

 

SB 6.9.34: O Lord, You need no support, and although You have no material body, You do not need cooperation from us. Since You are the cause of the cosmic manifestation and You supply its material ingredients without being transformed, You create, maintain and annihilate this cosmic manifestation by Yourself. Nevertheless, although You appear engaged in material activity, You are transcendental to all material qualities. Consequently these transcendental activities of Yours are extremely difficult to understand.

 

SB 6.9.35: These are our inquiries. The ordinary conditioned soul is subject to the material laws, and he thus receives the fruits of his actions. Does Your Lordship, like an ordinary human being, exist within this material world in a body produced by the material modes? Do You enjoy or suffer the good or bad results of actions under the influence of time, past work and so forth? Or, on the contrary, are You present here only as a neutral witness who is self-sufficient, free from all material desires, and always full of spiritual potency? We certainly cannot understand Your actual position.

 

SB 6.9.36: O Supreme Personality of Godhead, all contradictions can be reconciled in You. O Lord, since You are the Supreme Person, the reservoir of unlimited spiritual qualities, the supreme controller, Your unlimited glories are inconceivable to the conditioned souls. Many modern theologians argue about right and wrong without knowing what is actually right. Their arguments are always false and their judgments inconclusive because they have no authorized evidence with which to gain knowledge of You. Because their minds are agitated by scriptures containing false conclusions, they are unable to understand the truth concerning You. Furthermore, because of polluted eagerness to arrive at the right conclusion, their theories are incapable of revealing You, who are transcendental to their material conceptions. You are one without a second, and therefore in You contradictions like doing and not doing, happiness and distress, are not contradictory. Your potency is so great that it can do and undo anything as You like. With the help of that potency, what is impossible for You? Since there is no duality in Your constitutional position, You can do everything by the influence of Your energy.

 

SB 6.9.37: A rope causes fear for a bewildered person who considers it a snake, but not for a person with proper intelligence who knows it to be only a rope. Similarly, You, as the Supersoul in everyone's heart, inspire fear or fearlessness according to one's intelligence, but in You there is no duality.

 

SB 6.9.38: With deliberation, one will see that the Supreme Soul, although manifested in different ways, is actually the basic principle of everything. The total material energy is the cause of the material manifestation, but the material energy is caused by Him. Therefore He is the cause of all causes, the manifester of intelligence and the senses. He is perceived as the Supersoul of everything. Without Him, everything would be dead. You, as that Supersoul, the supreme controller, are the only one remaining.

 

SB 6.9.39: Therefore, O killer of the Madhu demon, incessant transcendental bliss flows in the minds of those who have even once tasted but a drop of the nectar from the ocean of Your glories. Such exalted devotees forget the tiny reflection of so-called material happiness produced from the material senses of sight and sound. Free from all desires, such devotees are the real friends of all living entities. Offering their minds unto You and enjoying transcendental bliss, they are expert in achieving the real goal of life. O Lord, You are the soul and dear friend of such devotees, who never need return to this material world. How could they give up engagement in Your devotional service?

 

SB 6.9.40: O Lord, O personified three worlds, father of the three worlds! O strength of the three worlds, in the form of the Vamana incarnation! O three-eyed form of Nrisimhadeva! O most beautiful person within the three worlds! Everything and everyone, including human beings and even the Daitya demons and the Danavas, is but an expansion of Your energy. O supremely powerful one, You have always appeared in Your forms as the various incarnations to punish the demons as soon as they become very powerful. You appear as Lord Vamanadeva, Lord Rama and Lord Krishna. You appear sometimes as an animal like Lord Boar, sometimes a mixed incarnation like Lord Nrisimhadeva and Lord Hayagriva, and sometimes an aquatic like Lord Fish and Lord Tortoise. Assuming such various forms, You have always punished the demons and Danavas. We therefore pray that Your Lordship appear today as another incarnation, if You so desire, to kill the great demon Vritrasura.

 

SB 6.9.41: O supreme protector, O grandfather, O supreme pure, O Lord! We are all surrendered souls at Your lotus feet. Indeed, our minds are bound to Your lotus feet in meditation by chains of love. Now please manifest Your incarnation. Accepting us as Your own eternal servants and devotees, be pleased with us and sympathetic toward us. By Your love-filled glance, with its cool and pleasing smile of sympathy, and by the sweet, nectarean words emanating from Your beautiful face, free us from the anxiety caused by this Vritrasura, who always pains the cores of our hearts.

 

SB 6.9.42: O Lord, as the small sparks of a fire cannot possibly perform the actions of the whole fire, we sparks of Your Lordship cannot inform You of the necessities of our lives. You are the complete whole. Therefore, of what do we need to inform You? You know everything because You are the original cause of the cosmic manifestation, the maintainer and the annihilator of the entire universal creation. You always engage in Your pastimes with Your spiritual and material energies, for You are the controller of all these varied energies. You exist within all living entities, within the cosmic manifestation, and also beyond them. You exist internally as Parabrahman and externally as the ingredients of the material creation. Therefore, although manifested in various stages, at different times and places, and in various bodies, You, the Personality of Godhead, are the original cause of all causes. Indeed, You are the original element. You are the witness of all activities, but because You are as great as the sky, You are never touched by any of them. You are the witness of everything as Parabrahman and Paramatma. O Supreme Personality of Godhead, nothing is unknown to You.

 

SB 6.9.43: Dear Lord, You are omniscient, and therefore You know very well why we have taken shelter at Your lotus feet, which provide shade that gives relief from all material disturbances. Since You are the supreme spiritual master and You know everything, we have sought shelter of Your lotus feet for instruction. Please give us relief by counteracting our present distress. Your lotus feet are the only shelter for a fully surrendered devotee and are the only means for subduing all the tribulations of this material world.

 

SB 6.9.44: Therefore, O Lord, O supreme controller, O Lord Krishna, please annihilate this dangerous demon Vritrasura, Tvashta's son, who has already swallowed all our weapons, our paraphernalia for fighting, and our strength and influence.

 

SB 6.9.45: O Lord, O supreme pure, You live within the core of everyone's heart and observe all the desires and activities of the conditioned souls. O Supreme Personality of Godhead known as Lord Krishna, Your reputation is bright and illuminating. You have no beginning, for You are the beginning of everything. This is understood by pure devotees because You are easily accessible to the pure and truthful. When the conditioned souls are liberated and sheltered at Your lotus feet after roving throughout the material world for many millions of years, they attain the highest success of life. Therefore, O Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, we offer our respectful obeisances at Your lotus feet.

 

SB 6.9.46: Sri Sukadeva Gosvami continued: O King Parikshit, when the demigods offered the Lord their sincere prayers in this way, the Lord listened by His causeless mercy. Being pleased, He then replied to the demigods.

 

SB 6.9.47: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O beloved demigods, you have offered your prayers to Me with great knowledge, and I am certainly most pleased with you. A person is liberated by such knowledge, and thus he remembers My exalted position, which is above the conditions of material life. Such a devotee is fully purified by offering prayers in full knowledge. This is the source of devotional service to Me.

 

SB 6.9.48: O best of the intelligent demigods, although it is true that nothing is difficult for one to obtain when I am pleased with him, a pure devotee, whose mind is exclusively fixed upon Me, does not ask Me for anything but the opportunity to engage in devotional service.

 

SB 6.9.49: Those who think material assets to be everything or to be the ultimate goal of life are called misers [kripanas]. They do not know the ultimate necessity of the soul. Moreover, if one awards that which is desired by such fools, he must also be considered foolish.

 

SB 6.9.50: A pure devotee who is fully accomplished in the science of devotional service will never instruct a foolish person to engage in fruitive activities for material enjoyment, not to speak of helping him in such activities. Such a devotee is like an experienced physician, who never encourages a patient to eat food injurious to his health, even if the patient desires it.

 

SB 6.9.51: O Maghavan [indra], all good fortune unto you. I advise you to approach the exalted saint Dadhyanca [Dadhici]. He has become very accomplished in knowledge, vows and austerities, and his body is very strong. Go ask him for his body without delay.

 

SB 6.9.52: That saintly Dadhyanca, who is also known as Dadhici, personally assimilated the spiritual science and then delivered it to the Asvini-kumaras. It is said that Dadhyanca gave them mantras through the head of a horse. Therefore the mantras are called Asvasira. After obtaining the mantras of spiritual science from Dadhici, the Asvini-kumaras became jivan-mukta, liberated even in this life.

 

SB 6.9.53: Dadhyanca's invincible protective covering known as the Narayana-kavaca was given to Tvashta, who delivered it to his son Visvarupa, from whom you have received it. Because of this Narayana-kavaca, Dadhici's body is now very strong. You should therefore beg him for his body.

 

SB 6.9.54: When the Asvini-kumaras beg for Dadhyanca's body on your behalf, he will surely give it because of affection. Do not doubt this, for Dadhyanca is very experienced in religious understanding. When Dadhyanca awards you his body, Visvakarma will prepare a thunderbolt from his bones. This thunderbolt will certainly kill Vritrasura because it will be invested with My power.

 

SB 6.9.55: When Vritrasura is killed because of My spiritual strength, you will regain your strength, weapons and wealth. Thus there will be all good fortune for all of you. Although Vritrasura can destroy all the three worlds, do not fear that he will harm you. He is also a devotee and will never be envious of you.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I find it easier on ones faith to stay focussed on the life of Mahaprabhu. The pastimes of Bhagavatam come from dimentions beyond our usual gross physical and mental perception, and often read like intoxicatant inspired.These things are all acceptable in a drug induced state but to the common mind they sound like phantasy and can't be easily rationized.

I believe the moral of the story is to stay focussed, one pointed on the one supreme Lord Sri Krsna, as he stated all offerings are meant for me and all worship me either knowingly or unknowingly, direct or indirect.

Maybe that's why there are principles warning against intoxication, it can seriously distort your vision of reality. I've never been exactly sure what soma is, but it seems to keep one in the dimention of the demigods.

Does anone out there know what soma is and what plant it is derived from?

[theist 1]

Because I have seen many people lose faith in Srimad Bhagavatam and even Krsna consciousness because of this issue.

 

Also someone made to feel like they have to just accept all these things as a package deal in accepting Krsna will decline to cultivate faith.

 

Lots of speculation on soma around. Not sure anyone knows. But I don't believe there was any of that influence in writing the Bhagavatam.

 

Like someone famous (forgot who) said about the Gita that he hears an ancient voice speaking to us on matters that are beyond our ordinary contemplation, that once were contemplated and put to rest by the wise ancients. (sorry,severely paraphrased).

 

These tales hold our interest and along the way hopefully some transcendental knowledge may slip in, almost by osmosis.

 

At least that is what I think. I know others here have different views and I am hoping they will present them for discussion.

[Guest guest]

It all makes one wonder about the depths of spiritual vision and experience and its recording or translation to the written word, Revelations is also full of it, but like what I think you allude to, is how does it practically and tangibly help our day to day lives in becoming a more loving dedicated servitor of God, or better person for that matter?

Because often times the more God intoxicated a soul becomes the more they seem to be alienated from the mainstream of the masses. And only accepted by those of common programming.

No doubt Srila Sukadev was a divine madman that very few must have understood in his time.

Personally there are very few souls I've ever met that have such profound spiritual vision, that haven't had some connection to intoxicants, but they do exist, yet still I don't know their backgrounds.

What I find difficult to digest is how these pastimes are expressed as if the seer is personally present at each event, yet they are living in a different time to when the pastime took place. Therefore it must be like watching a television program in their mind or soul then relating every detail of what was perceived to their audience and then putting it to paper.

I can accept totally different planes of reality beyond my dull senses and brain, but it is easier for me to accept the Lord of the Rings as a good imaginative story by a brilliant writer, then believe that world actually exists, because I remember a quote from Tolkien once warning his readers not to read too much into its meaning.

Our worlds are in our minds, it's just that what does that world make of you? A sentimentalist, A realist, a blind fanatic, a devotee, a faithful follower, an idealist.

That is, how real are our convictions in what we are realizeing? Do we accept things on what we are tasting or on what we hear from others tasting, and what stands them apart from all the other conceptions of faith? This gets right down to the line of our faith and is at the heart of who we are.

[Guest guest]

I didn't mean to say that the people I know that have experimented with sacrements like peyote or mushrooms or LSD have profound spiritual vision, just that there are many of them now that also believe in and practice Krsna Consciousness, that is many of Prabhupads initial disciples were drawn out of the hippie element and it is their efforts that helped propagate the movement. Not that there wasn't sober drug-free converts.

[theist 1]

what you meant. I accept that some substances can play a part in mind expansion at some stage in our development. I also think at some point they beome a downer, a hinderance.

 

I have held some thoughts on all of this but I am not sure of anything really or how to put it together. One question is we can say they wrote of different realities, and those dimensions of reality surely can't be measured by our present 3d worlds standards. But then could that be true in all cases? Why would this literature be put together for people of this dimension and this age in particular with so many, to us, wild tales that are difficult to believe? It would seem counter productive.

 

But then isn't it true that the Mahabharata was specifically put into story format for we of this age?

 

 

[theist 1]

 

What I find difficult to digest is how these pastimes are expressed as if the seer is personally present at each event, yet they are living in a different time to when the pastime took place. Therefore it must be like watching a television program in their mind or soul then relating every detail of what was perceived to their audience and then putting it to paper.

 

 

I have wondered the same. Even the Gita being seen and heard by Sanjaya and relayed to Dhritarastra. Even that is related to us by a mysterious (at least to me) observer.

 

 

BG 1.1: Dhritarashtra said: O Sanjaya, after my sons and the sons of Pandu assembled in the place of pilgrimage at Kurukshetra, desiring to fight, what did they do?

 

BG 1.2: Sanjaya said: O King, after looking over the army arranged in military formation by the sons of Pandu, King Duryodhana went to his teacher and spoke the following words.

 

 

 

I read a quote by Bkativinode about such realized beings writing from the platform of sabda-brahma. Is this similar to what people refer to as Akashic records? I wonder.

[Guest guest]

 

I have heard that it is all floating in Consciousness and depending how much capacity each soul has to receive these realms of Truth determines our degree of faith. Then we are directed accordingly to different conceptions of reality, and representitives, associations etc. of that particular destination. For us it appears the Sankirtan party resonates a chord in our being. At least that does it for me, but if it weren't for Chaitanya Mahaprabhu I must admit I would be struggling to accept some conclusions of shastra. But then because Gauranga has given His acceptance wholesale it tends to act as a circuit breaker to my apparent lack of complete acceptance. I just think if it was good enough for him who am I to dispute. Same applies to the most recent half dozen acharyas in the Gaudiya Guru Varga who are so stalwart and resolute in their conviction. For their depth of surrender and consequent determination to propagate these thesis is very convincing, and personally I just don't find any others who measure up to them. Like who for instance could compare to the sobriety of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Maharaj? So here I am.

[AncientMariner 0]

I know what you are saying but for some reason after reading Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1, Ch. 3 text 41 I have never had any problem accepting Srimad Bhagavatam as actual history. In fact that was one of the most profound and beautiful moments I have had in my association with Prabhupada's masterpiece literature.

 

"Sri Vyasadeva delivered it to his son, who is the most respected among the self-realized, after extracting the cream of all Vedic literatures and histories of the universe."

 

Purport

 

Men with a poor fund of knowledge only accept the history of the world from the time of Buddha, or since 600 B.C., and prior to this period all histories mentioned in the scriptures are calculated by them to be only imaginary stories. That is not a fact. All the stories mentioned in the Puranas and Mahabharata, etc., are actual histories, not only of this planet but also of millions of other planets within the universe. Sometimes the history of planets beyond this world appear to such men to be unbelievable. But they do not know that different planets are not equal in all respects and that therefore some of the historical facts derived from other planets do not correspond with the experience of this planet. Considering the different situation of different planets and also time and circumstances, there is nothing wonderful in the stories of the Puranas, nor are they imaginary. We should always remember the maxim that one man's food is another man's poison. We should not, therefore, reject the stories and histories of the Puranas as imaginary. The great rsis like Vyasa had no business putting some imaginary stories in their literatures.

 

In the Srimad Bhagavatam historical facts selected from the histories of different planets have been depicted. It is therefore accepted by all spiritual authorities as the Maha-purana. The special significance of these histories is that they are all connected with activities of the Lord in a different time and atmosphere...........................................

In the Bhagavad Gita the Lord says that purpose of all the Vedas is to know Him (Lord Krsna), and Srimad Bhagavatam is Lord Sri Krsna Himself in the form of recorded knowledge. Therefore, it is the cream of all the Vedas, and it contains all historical facts of all times in relation with Sri Krsna. It is factually the essence of all histories.

 

note: I left the middle part out because it was too long to type but it is about how Srila Vyasadeva is the great authority of Srimad Bhagavatam and how he delivered it to his son and how there is no benefit to be gained from Srimad Bhagavatam unless it is received from the representative of Sukadeva.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa 1]

 

 

I loved this story!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Narada Muni, used to visit Bhagavan Krishna at Dwaraka every day. Once, he saw one very learned brahmana taking thrice bath and everything very nicely. The brahmana asked Narada Muni, "Oh, you are going to Krishna!. Will you inquire when I shall get my salvation?" .

 

"All right. I shall ask " .

 

And then a cobbler, he was under the tree, sewing the shoes, old shoes. He also saw Narada Muni. He also inquired, "Will you kindly inquire from Krishna when my salvation is...?"

 

The Muni asked Krishna "Bhagavan, two persons, one brahmana and one cobbler, they inquired like this. So may I know their destiny ?" .

 

Bhagavan Krishna replied "Well, yes, the cobbler, after giving up this body, he's coming to Vaikuntha."

 

"And what about that brahmana?". Narada Muni asked .

 

Krishna replied "Oh, he has to remain there still so many births, or I do not know when he's coming."

 

Narada Muni was suprised, "I saw that he's very nice brahmana, and the other a cobbler. Why is that ?. I cannot understand the mystery. Why You say that cobbler is getting salvation and why not that brahmana?"

 

Bhagavan Krishna said "Oh, that, you'll understand. If they inquire ' What Krishna, was doing in His abode?,' you just explain 'He's pulling an elephant this side and that side through the hole of a needle".

 

"All right." Narada agreed.

 

So when Narada Muni met him the brahmana inquired, "Oh, you have seen Krishna ?" .

 

"Yes."

 

"What was Krishna doing?"

 

"He was doing this; through the hole of a needle He was pushing one elephant this way and that way."

 

"Oh, therefore I have no faith in your Krishna... I, I, I have got all respect for your garb, but we don't believe all this nonsense."

 

Then Narada could understand, "Oh, this man has no faith in Krishna. He simply reads books. That's all."

 

And when the Muni went to the cobbler, he also asked, "Oh, you have seen Him? What Krishna was doing?"

Narada said "He was doing like this..."

 

Oh, the cobbler began to cry in ecstasy , "Oh, my Bhagavan is wonderful. He can do anything."

 

Sri Narada inquired, "So do you believe that Bhagavan Krishna can push one elephant through the hole of a needle?" .

 

"Oh, why not? I must believe."

 

"Then what is your reason?".

 

"Oh, my reason? I am sitting under this banyan tree, and so many fruits are falling

daily, and in each fruit there are thousands of seeds, and each seed grows as a

tree. If in a small seed there can be big tree like that, is it very easy to accept that Krishna is putting one elephant through the hole of a needle. He has kept such a nice tree in the seed."

 

Narada Muni realised 'So this is called belief. This cobbler is a genuine believer of Krishna and he has sound logic . If by Krishna's grace, such a big tree can be put within the small seed, is it not easy for Krishna to keep all these planets floating in His energy? So we have to believe. We have no other explanation. But we have to understand in this way. Our reasoning, our argument, our logic should go in this way.'

 

So the one who is a devotee... Just like the cobbler. He may be a cobbler. He has total faith in Krishna . And those who are not true devotees, they'll say like that Brahmana, "Oh, these are all bluffs. It is all bluff." But the pastimes of Krishna are not bluff. They are simply meant for His devotees. They can understand. The non-devotees, they can never understand!!!.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

We know Krsna can do anything, His wonders are endless He can also put the head of an elephant on a human form or He can manifest as half man half lion. And so can special effects techies in the cinema. But the difficulty is convincing others that this is not some mythical phantasy that holds it's own in comparative studies of spiritual teachings.

I once catered prasadam to a large festival of healers that in itself spoke heaps to the mass of inquisitive souls present until we decided to do a play on the life of Prahlad Maharaj which tended to strike the audience dumb.

Of coarse we as devotees, were totally absorbed in the victory of Prahlad, but the audience were perhaps seeing something else.

Then later the head of that group approached us saying We love what you do and your philosophy is very profound. But I'm afraid my God doesn't go around ripping anyones intestines out with relish. Of course there are many answers to this and we did give a reasonable explanation but needless to say it wasn't convincing enough to make this person a vaisnava. That's why i tend to find the pastimes of Mahaprabhu more tangible and relatable to the present climate of consciousness.

[theist 1]

Yes I understand your point. But that raises even more questions for me. Still somewhat undefined in my own mind to bring forth just yet.

 

Sometimes the father will speak one way to a very young son and then another explanation will be given to his eldest child who can handle more.

 

Above you mentioned that you prefer the pastimes of Mahaprabhu over the SB. Why was that again? Are you really accepting or you did mention degrees.

 

I will post a letter below that I have found very helpful.

[theist 1]

Yes AM, that purport is very direct but how does it harmonize with what he says in this letter?

 

Vrindaban

7 November, 1972

72-11-07

 

My Dear Krsnadasa,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated October 30, 1972, and I have noted the contents. It appears that you are again constantly disturbed by the same nonsense doubts. These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. If we are seeking to find out some fault, maya will give us all facility to find any small thing and make it very big, that is maya. But such questions as yours: why there is so-called discrepancy between the views of Bhagavat and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets, and whether Hitler is good or bad man, these are most insignificant matters, and for anyone who is sincerely convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for him these questions do not arise. Our information comes from Vedas, and if we believe Krishna, that

vedaham samatitani

vartamanani carjuna

bhavisyani ca bhutani

mam tu veda na kascana

[bg. 7.26]

that He knows everything, and ``vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham,'' that Krishna is non-different from Vedas, then these questions do not arise.

But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction. Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King .. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam. But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet. The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology. The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect. We take Krishna's version:

gam avisya ca bhutani

dharayamy aham ojasa

pusnami causadhih sarvah

somo bhutvah rasatmakah

(BG, 15.13)

``I become the moon,'' and ``yac chandramasi yac cagnau,'' (ibid, 12) ``I am the splendor of the moon,'' and ``jyotisam api taj jyotis,'' (BG, 13.18) ``I am the source of light in all luminous objects,'' so no one is able to give us the correct information than Krishna, that you should know.

Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement? But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: ``Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.'' But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas ``Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam,'' (ibid), Krishna is knowledge, He is the object of knowledge, He is the goal of knowledge, and

you mam evam asammudho

janati purusottamam

sa sarva-vid bhajati mam

(BG, XV, 19)

``Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''--this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[theist 1]

Pankaja, Yes I agree Krsna can do anything. But all these stories are not directly about Krsna doing something. But of course this world is a dream and anything can happen. Who am I to say.

 

But truths can also be conveyed in story form or allegory and are independent of some happening in this illusion having really taken place or not.

 

Therefore I have no visible recourse but to throw up my hands and say that I don't care, it really doesn't matter that much. I can't just pretend that I believe it all to get along and be accepted. Nor need I make an issue of someone who chooses to believe it all at face value.

 

Krsna can do anything is good enough for me.