Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Hare Krishna AGTSP.......... I want to know opinion of devotees. Guru is not issue here. We all agree we need. Book Bhagavata--Impersonal aspect Person Bhagavata--Personal aspect If by approaching Book Bhagavata you don't approach Person Bhagavata then you are being a Mayavadi {one who thinks he is God}. The Person Bhagavata is the full manifestation of the Book Bhagavata. In its Devotional Potency. A book is Impersonal {partial representation of Lord Krishna} The person is the Full Representation {living entity}. So without both you cannot have neither. Agreed? nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naishthiki SYNONYMS nashta -- destroyed; prayeshu -- almost to nil; abhadreshu -- all that is inauspicious; nityam -- regularly; bhagavata -- Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya -- by serving; bhagavati -- unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama -- transcendental; sloke -- prayers; bhaktih -- loving service; bhavati -- comes into being; naishthiki -- irrevocable. TRANSLATION By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. PURPORT Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical. The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. __ http://srimadbhagavatam.com/1/2/18/en1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Hare Krishna AGTSP.......... I want to know opinion of devotees. Guru is not issue here. We all agree we need. Book Bhagavata--Impersonal aspect Person Bhagavata--Personal aspect If by approaching Book Bhagavata you don't approach Person Bhagavata then you are being a Mayavadi {one who thinks he is God}. The Person Bhagavata is the full manifestation of the Book Bhagavata. In its Devotional Potency. A book is Impersonal {partial representation of Lord Krishna} The person is the Full Representation {living entity}. So without both you cannot have neither. Agreed? No I do not agree that the book is impersonal. You may see it as only impersonal but that is only defective vision. You may be interested in my last couple of posts on the death of Bhakti thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I was just wondering what devotees thought. Guru-kripa.? That letter was to His disicple {initiated}. I don't see how that has anything to do with me. Except now it does. { I am initiated }. Serving Guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayaisvara Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I read the article on vina.cc about Simplicity and Faith: Part 1: http://www.vina.cc/stories/PHILOSOPHICAL/2004/4/simplicityandfaith.html Part 2: http://www.vina.cc/stories/PHILOSOPHICAL/2004/5/simplicityandfaith.2.html Through the books, one can still associate with the Sadhus and the Spiritual Master because the books vibrate the transcendental vibration. Faith is the most important, which is the lesson of those two articles. Its a very important article I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 A book is Impersonal {partial representation of Lord Krishna} The person is the Full Representation {living entity}. So without both you cannot have neither. Agreed? If the person is the "full" representation, why would you need "both" that and the book? The only "full representation" of the Supreme Personality of Godhead accepted by Gaudiya vaishnavas is Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. Gurudeva is seen as one of Srimati Radharani's confidential servitors and representive of Sri Guru, Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Our philosophy is "simultaneous oneness-and-difference". Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the perfect embodiment of it. He cannot be approached through religion, but only by relationship based on devotional service. Religion is "impersonal" and relationship "personal". Srila Prabhupada often warned us against religiousity. Krsna's inner potency requires taking shelter INSIDE, deep in our heart-of-hearts. Religious externals can help uncover those hearts, but the Absolute Truth must be personally revealed by His Divine Grace. The seed of devotion is planted in person and best watered in person as well. Books can become confusing and religions too easily misused. Difficult as it may be, we have the responsibility to seek out higher association and perform submissive service in person. Then again, we can always wait for hopefully 'better' circumstances or to be forced by 'special mercy'. Enamoured as we are by these material bodies, Krsna wants us more than we want Him, however else it may appear. One way or another, He's going to eventually get us, like it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 "Krishna I am Yours!" then immediately Krishna will accept you. He is there in your heart, but you can't cry out to Him. Your heart is filled with such filth, such duplicity and crookedness. You are never simple. And Krishna knows it. -- Now! according to the article you need simple heart. Another person reading the above will think the above means you don't need Guru. I loved that article. ty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayaisvara Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Good point. Therefore, Krsna says that we try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Also, sadhu sastra guru vakya - It is vital to have unflinching faith in the saintly persons, scriptures and guru. Krsna sent Narada Muni as a guru to Dhruva Maharaja. So when He knows that we are sincere, He sends a guru to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Such a perfect verse and purport to post. very timely Pankaja. PURPORT Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Bhagavata book and person are identical. ...and at the same time different. Book Bhagavata--Impersonal aspect Person Bhagavata--Personal aspect "If by approaching Book Bhagavata you don't approach Person Bhagavata then you are being a Mayavadi." A Mayavadi is essentialy a demoniac person, even if he gets all good qualities of sattva guna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayaisvara Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 "If by approaching Book Bhagavata you don't approach Person Bhagavata then you are being a Mayavadi." Do you mean discriminating between the two entitles one a mayavadi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 reading all these posts regarding living guru vs. book guru debate on this and other threads I cant help but think that our preaching efforts should be more directed towards outsiders and not other devotees. unless we ourselves are very, very advanced, among other devotees we should simply discuss Krishna consciousness in a very friendly and humble way. these heated debates dont lead anywhere but to mutual frustration or worse. Hare Krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 If so where did I close my eyes to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. You see many people have translated the Bhagavata. But we are fortunate in that we received the book Bhagavata from the person Bhagavata. Not only the translation but the elaborate purports. That is why I say we consult guru everytime we read his purports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Thats ok. So you can learn everything from books. LOL what does the Purport say? Approach Guru. I give up! Now I am really being advanced!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 What is your mood when you read one of Prabhupada's purports? It should be the same as if you were attending a lecture with his vapuh sitting on the vyasasana. You submissively receive the instructions and then find some way to offer service according to those instructions. If guru on the vyasasana tells you to go do a certain thing you go do it right? So if guru in the his purport says to do something you do it. Serve guru by serving his instructions. How else do you serve guru if not by serving his instructions? Do you think approach means that you are perpetually walking towards his vapuh or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 So the next objection will be "how does one know that they aren't concocting some service out of his imagination?" Well that happens with vapuh and vani anyway. But here is how one knows. __________________ Näräyana: So those disciples who don’t have opportunity to see you or speak with you... Prabhupäda: That he was speaking, väni and vapuù. Even if you don’t see his body, you take his word, väni. Näräyaëa: But how do they know they’re pleasing you, Srila Prabhupäda? Prabhupäda: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased? Sudämä: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result. Prabhupäda: Yes. Jayädvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we’ll do that. Prabhupäda: Yes. My Guru Mahäräja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is väni. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the väni, then you are getting help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Näräyana: So those disciples who don’t have opportunity to see you or speak with you... -- I am not going thru this. Its obvious Prabhupada is saying about Initiated disciples. Prabhupada clearly says you must approach Guru. There is not only 1 Guru. They are many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anadi Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Näräyana: So those disciples who don’t have opportunity to see you or speak with you... What could Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami say? that they have no chance to get the real thing? yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet... "An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness." (Brs.1.2.4) There is no piece of evidence in the books Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami wrote, for sustaining your ritvik. Your speculations are based of some of his discussions and letters wrote to his disciple, who did not read his books, and he spoke to them folowind the principle: yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet... "An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness." (Brs.1.2.4) In describing the different types of devotees, Srila Rupa Gosvami advises us in Sri UpadeSamRta how should we behave in our relations with them. There we can find some characteristics of the madyam devotee: krsneti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam SUSRuAayA bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya- NindAdi Sunya-hRdam Ipsita-saNga-labdhyA Adriyeta one should respect; manas. within the mind; Tam that person (a neophyte devotee); yasya giri in whose speech; iti thus (appears); kRSNa one name of KRSNa; praNatibhiH one should offer praNAma; ca also; bhajantam - to an intermediate devotee who, (being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions); Isam -to his Istadeva; cet if; asti -he has; dikSA -accepted initiation from a qualified guru; SuSRuSayA one should do all types of service bhajana vijNam to a self-realised, expert mahA-bhAgavata (VaiSNava who performs bhajana of Sri RAdhA-KRSNa's eightfold daily pastimes by rendering service mentally; ananyam who is one pointed, exclusive devotee of Sri KRSNa; anya nindAdi Sunya hRdam and whose heart is free from faults (due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa), labdhyA having obtained; Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 What could Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami say? that they have no chance to get the real thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 both bhagavata and bhagavata purana are very sacred, and should be treated with utmost love and care /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 awesome quote by Srila Prabhupada: In 1977 May 17 ar.VRN Conversations: Prabhupada: " So I cannot speak. I am feeling very weak. I was to go to other places like Chandigarh program, but I cancelled the program because the condition of my health is very deteriorating. So I preferred to come to Vrndavana. If death takes place, let it take here. So there is nothing to be said new. Whatever I have to speak, I have spoken in my books. Now you try to understand it and continue your endeavor. Whether I am present or not present, it doesn't matter. As Krsna is living eternally, similarly, living being also lives eternally. But KIRTIR YASYA SA JIVATI: "ONE WHO HAS DONE SERVICE TO THE LORD LIVES FOREVER." So you have been taught to serve Krsna, and with Krsna we'll live eternally. Our life is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. A temporary disappearance of this body, it doesn't matter. Body is meant for disappearance. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So live forever by serving Krsna. Thank you very much." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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