Animal sacrifice

[theist 1]

From an animal rights board. A Jewish poster was arguing that the Torah was the way to true kindness and not animal rights. This was one response.

 

Leviticus is a book of the Bible found in the old Testament.

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Animal sacrifice, real religion or nightmare

Leviticus 1

 

 

The Burnt Offering (Holocaust)

 

1 The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said,

2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any of you brings an offering to the LORD , bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.

3 " 'If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he is to offer a male without defect. He must present it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting so that it will be acceptable to the LORD .

4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

5 He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD , and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

6 He is to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces.

7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire.

8 Then Aaron's sons the priests shall *arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar.

9 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, **an aroma pleasing to the LORD .

 

*Yeah don't forget the head and the fat when making the arrangment,ascetically the best parts, what offering to God would be complete without the head and fat.

 

** I'm sure the creator of scents like jasmine, rose and sandlewood really wants to smell the burning of the mess described above. Yeah right. My momma said, "Beware of any entities that hang out around crematoriums sniffin' the fumes."

 

If there was a time when such things were called for that time has long past. The Jews weren't the only culture to approach the Divine in such barbaric ways. It's all other the world. Ancient texts from India describe ashvamedhas(horse sacrifices) and gomedhas(cow sacrifices)that were offered to please the gods so one could enter heaven, or gain some immediate favor on Earth.

 

And the culture we now live in largely considers approaching the divine at all as silliness. You decide which is worse. the animals don't seem to fair well in either.

 

cont.

 

Lev. 1

10 " 'If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, he is to offer a male without defect*.

11 He is to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the LORD , and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle its blood against the altar on all sides.

12 He is to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange** them, including the head and the fat, on the burning wood that is on the altar.

13 He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of it and burn it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an ***aroma pleasing to the LORD .

14 " 'If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon.

15 The priest shall bring it to the altar,**** wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar.

16 He is to remove the crop with its contents and throw it to the east side of the altar, where the ashes are.

17 He shall tear it open by the *****wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD .

 

*For the sheep it looks like it may have been better to be born crippled or with three legs or with some kind of defect to save them from ending up on the dreaded altar of God.

 

** for the arrangement a priest should also know some Feng Sui(sp) or Vastu.

 

*** better to offer God some scented flowers and sandlewood sticks.

 

**** There is a pleasant scene. A priest standing at the altar wringing off the head of a pidgeon. Shades of Santeria.

 

***** I feel closer to God watching His birds using their wings in flight. Marvelous, wonderous and often with some of the most beautiful colors seen in nature. So far beyond man's technical abilities, how they dive and swoop and change course in flight.

 

Wring off their heads?? Rip apart their wings?? NO THANKS. BTW isn't that one of the symptoms serial killers exhibit in childhood?

 

Atonement takes place on the altars of our hearts. Sacrifice the desire to cause needless suffering to others in that inner temple. That will please God. Even externally simple offerings found among the good things of nature will surfice. Fruits, flowers, fine scents etc. Not to wipe away our sins but as a naturlly loving exchange between the oneself and the Lord.

 

 

 

[Kulapavana 0]

animal sacrifices are a clear signature of demigod worship. judaism is worship of Lord Brahma. "Abraham" literaly means: "son of Brahma". in sacrifices to Lord Vishnu ghee, honey and fruits are offered into fire. ashvameda, gomedha and other Vedic animal sacrifices are offered to demigods with a clear material gain in mind.

[ancient_paztriot 0]

Indra was very upset he didn't get his portion of sacrifice at the Govardhana Hill incident - as many other demigods have been.

 

Does anyone know any of the mechanics involved in this process? Exactly how do they recieve sacrifice and what does it do for them?

..........................

 

Bg 3.11

The demigods are empowered administrators of material affairs. The supply of air, light, water and all other benedictions for maintaining the body and soul of every living entity are entrusted to the demigods, who are innumerable assistants in different parts of the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their pleasures and displeasures are dependant on the performance of yajnas by the human being. Some of the yajnas are meant to satisfy particular demigods; but even in so doing, Lord Visnu is worshiped in all yajnas as the chief beneficiary. It is stated also in the Bhagavad-gita that Krsna Himself is the beneficiary of all kinds of yajnas: bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. Therefore, ultimate satisfaction of the yajnapati is the chief purpose of all yajnas. When these yajnas are perfectly performed, naturally the demigods in charge of the different departments of supply are pleased, and there is no scarcity in the supply of natural products.

[ancient_paztriot 0]

not an exact match, but close (Theist)…

 

SB 4.18.6

My dear King, the seeds, roots, herbs and grains, which were created by Lord Brahma in the past, are now being used by nondevotees, who are devoid of all spiritual understanding.

 

PURPORT

Lord Brahma created this material world for the use of the living entities, but it was created according to a plan that all living entities who might come into it to dominate it for sense gratification would be given directions by Lord Brahma in the Vedas in order that they might ultimately leave it and return home, back to Godhead. All necessities grown on earth—namely fruits, flowers, trees, grains, animals and animal by-products—were created for use in sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu. However, the planet earth in the shape of a cow herein submits that all these utilities are being used by nondevotees, who have no plans for spiritual understanding. Although there are immense potencies within the earth for the production of grains, fruits and flowers, this production is checked by the earth itself when it is misused by nondevotees, who have no spiritual goals. Everything belongs to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and everything can be used for His satisfaction. Things should not be used for the sense gratification of the living entities. This is the whole plan of material nature according to the directions of this material nature.

 

In this verse the words asadbhih and adhrta-vrataih are important. The word asadbhih refers to the nondevotees. The nondevotees have been described in Bhagavad-gita as duskrtinah (miscreants), mudhah (asses or rascals), naradhamah (lowest of mankind) and mayayapahrta-jnanah (those who have lost their knowledge to the power of the illusory energy). All these persons are asat, nondevotees. Nondevotees are also called grha-vrata, whereas the devotee is called dhrta-vrata. The whole Vedic plan is that the misguided conditioned souls who have come to lord it over material nature should be trained to become dhrta-vrata. This means that they should take a vow to satisfy their senses or enjoy material life only by satisfying the senses of the Supreme Lord. Activities intended to satisfy the senses of the Supreme Lord, Krsna, are called krsnarthe ’khila-cestah. This indicates that one can attempt all kinds of work, but one should do so to satisfy Krsna. This is described in Bhagavad-gita as yajnarthat karma. The word yajna indicates Lord Visnu. We should work only for His satisfaction. In modern times (Kali-yuga), however, people have forgotten Visnu altogether, and they conduct their activities for sense gratification. Such people will gradually become poverty-stricken, for they cannot use things which are to be enjoyed by the Supreme Lord for their own sense gratification. If they continue like this, there will ultimately be a state of poverty, and no grains, fruits or flowers will be produced. Indeed, it is stated in the Twelfth Canto of Bhagavatam that at the end of Kali-yuga people will be so polluted that there will no longer be any grains, wheat, sugarcane or milk.

[theist 1]

 

Does anyone know any of the mechanics involved in this process? Exactly how do they recieve sacrifice and what does it do for them?

 

 

I wonder this also. The demi-gods are supposed to receive their share of the sacrifice. Well what does that mean exactly? A portion of the actual things offered in sacrifice? What use could that be to them? What would a mountain of grain do for a demigod? A perportional amount of something else that the offering from our sphere would represent? Like a king receives a sixth of the activitites of the subjects? Something like that?

 

Yeah, its always Indra isn't it. Remember he's the one who came to steal Prthu's 100th horse to be sacrificed out of envy.

 

I am really confused on this issue. As it is I can't take these stories to be literal. The temptation for the mundane mind to fill in some voided areas is also dangerously present and must be resisted.

 

That chapter from Leviticus was gross and I can't accept it came from Vishnu or Brahma and was in anyway pleasing to Them.

 

It would be nice to have an explanation of the process as i don't even know that.

 

 

[theist 1]

 

 

TRANSLATION 4.25.7

 

The great saint Narada said: O ruler of the citizens, my dear King, please see in the sky those animals which you have sacrificed without compassion and without mercy in the sacrificial arena.

 

PURPORT

 

Because animal sacrifice is recommended in the Vedas, there are animal sacrifices in almost all religious rituals. However, one should not be satisfied simply by killing animals according to the directions of the scriptures. One should transcend the ritualistic ceremonies and try to understand the actual truth, the purpose of life. Narada Muni wanted to instruct the King about the real purpose of life and invoke a spirit of renunciation in his heart. Knowledge and the spirit of renunciation (jñana-vairagya) are the ultimate goal of life. Without knowledge, one cannot become detached from material enjoyment, and without being detached from material enjoyment, one cannot make spiritual advancement. Karmis are generally engaged in sense gratification, and for this end they are prepared to commit so many sinful activities. Animal sacrifice is but one such sinful activity. Consequently, by his mystic power Narada Muni showed King Pracinabarhisat the dead animals which he had sacrificed.

 

 

TRANSLATION 4.25.8

 

All these animals are awaiting your death so that they can avenge the injuries you have inflicted upon them. After you die, they will angrily pierce your body with iron horns.

 

PURPORT

 

Narada Muni wanted to draw King Pracinabarhisat's attention to the excesses of killing animals in sacrifices. It is said in the sastras that by killing animals in a sacrifice, one immediately promotes them to human birth. Similarly, by killing their enemies on a battlefield, the ksatriyas who fight for a right cause are elevated to the heavenly planets after death. In Manu-samhita it is stated that it is necessary for a king to execute a murderer so that the murderer will not suffer for his criminal actions in his next life. On the basis of such understanding, Narada Muni warns the King that the animals killed in sacrifices by the King await him at his death in order to avenge themselves. Narada Muni is not contradicting himself here. Narada Muni wanted to convince the King that overindulgence in animal sacrifice is risky because as soon as there is a small discrepancy in the execution of such a sacrifice, the slaughtered animal may not be promoted to a human form of life. Consequently, the person performing sacrifice will be responsible for the death of the animal, just as much as a murderer is responsible for killing another man. When animals are killed in a slaughterhouse, six people connected with the killing are responsible for the murder. The person who gives permission for the killing, the person who kills, the person who helps, the person who purchases the meat, the person who cooks the flesh and the person who eats it, all become entangled in the killing. Narada Muni wanted to draw the King's attention to this fact. Thus animal-killing is not encouraged even in a sacrifice.

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[Kulapavana 0]

even most demigods don't understand how this universe works, what to speak of pea-brains like us (remember the 4 heads of Brahma? only 4 because it is a small universe?)

 

the vedic culture gradually elevates people to the highest spiritual knowledge. the animal sacrifices teach people that there are higher powers controlling the universe and that one must earn the fruit of his actions not by work alone, but also through proper frame of mind. people who simply expect the highest standard of behaviour from everybody are certainly very naive. if the vedic culture is abandoned, the resulting chaos dooms people to devolution and animal birth in the next life.

[theist 1]

 

Thus animal-killing is not encouraged even in a sacrifice.

 

 

How to square Prabhupada's quote above with the fact that animal sacrifice apparently WAS encouraged in the Vedas.

 

 

 

 

the vedic culture gradually elevates people to the highest spiritual knowledge. the animal sacrifices teach people that there are higher powers controlling the universe and that one must earn the fruit of his actions not by work alone, but also through proper frame of mind.

 

 

Yes I understand gradual development. Even religions considered outside the veda's are often for that purpose. Like Buddhism,Islam and Christianity can be analyzed like that.

 

But the question remains for me why animal sacrifice. There is none in Buddhism but in Judaism it is directly described as being pleasing to the Lord? There is something I am not seeing here.

 

I am doubting if they were given by the Lord in the first place to be honest.

 

 

 

people who simply expect the highest standard of behaviour from everybody are certainly very naive. if the vedic culture is abandoned, the resulting chaos dooms people to devolution and animal birth in the next life.

 

 

Nobody is expecting the highest standard from everybody, especially those of us who can't live up to it ourselves. But as said above any mistake in the sacrifice and the animal doesn't get the human birth and the performer gets gored by the animal etc.

 

I am not questioning sacrifice to the demi-gods but only the inclusion of some helpless creature. It wouyld just seem to have a coarsening effect on society. Even today's vegans can understand that and many of them are atheists who certainy don't live up to the highest standard.

 

[theist 1]

You see where this is going. How can these prescriptions of the vedas be accepted on the level of the eternal Word? There may be (or not be) value there in leading to the eternal Word in other sections but upon attaining that Word these sections must be left behind.

 

So why is it said by many that the vedas are themselves the eternal Word instead of saying they contain the eternal Word?

[Kulapavana 0]

if you actually read what these vedic sacrifices involve, you will see that the animal is a relatively minor "ingredient", and that such animal in the past (when the brahmanas were actually qualified) VISIBLY obtained heavenly body using the good karma of the sacrificial brahmanas. of course the non-vedic sacrifices are a mere distorted reflection of the old vedic yagyas.

 

Vedas are called the eternal Word because they contain the Eternal Word. the vedic "eternity" you seem to have objections to is related mostly to the ever re-created material world. each episode of creation is very much alike and this process is also eternal.

[theist 1]

not minor to the animal. I accept your clarification on the word "eternity". That qualification makes sense. I think it to be an important distinction to be mindful of. But can't we say the same for other scriptures then? Like the Bible.

[ancient_paztriot 0]

"But the question remains for me why animal sacrifice?"

 

In support of Kulapavana, these sacrifices were also a demonstration on the power of the process. Seeing the animal transformed by the strength of the sacrifice must be very impressive.

[Kulapavana 0]

"can't we say the same for other scriptures then?"

 

be real man... Bible says Earth is 5000 years old... and Vedas give description of other universes and other episodes of creation, and you still have problems with calling it eternal /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Kulapavana 0]

yes, this is a very important point paz. to build faith. just like the good old "miracles" in semitic religions

[theist 1]

I am really showing my doubting faithless nature here, but why stop now.

 

Prabhupada says in the above purport that the animals are promoted to human in their next birth. When I read that I admit my mind goes "maybe". I can't help but wonder if some mind inspired justification isn't at work. You know some guilt at the killing of an innocent creature gets covered over pretty easy by imagining that it's soul is really benefited by the process.

 

Kulapavana, I don't even know where to begin to learn the particulars of these yajna's. Any suggestions?

[Kulapavana 0]

the sources are: Atharva Veda and Puranas (I would try the Puranic Encyclopedia first, to narrow it down).

 

when the animal was offered in sacrifice people could see it ascend to heavens from fire in a new dazzling celestial body! And their NEXT birth was to be human (all those coming back from heavenly realms take a human birth - and a good one at that...)

[theist 1]

I am still doubtful but I'll order a Puranic Encyclopedia cd from jndas and see where it leads.

[Guest guest]

Is he the animal rights guy?

[theist 1]

 

be real man... Bible says Earth is 5000 years old... and Vedas give description of other universes and other episodes of creation, and you still have problems with calling it eternal

 

 

No it doesn't. But anyway you changed the context from animal sacrifice to creation. I was trying to be a little generous with your use of eternal, now I will take it back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[theist 1]

 

(Who is jndas)Is he the animal rights guy?

 

 

Jahnava Nitai das is our benefactor and well wisher who runs and maintains this forum, among many other things. He has other forums and preaching efforts under Indiadivine.

 

[ancient_paztriot 0]

SB 5.26.24

If in this life a man of the higher classes [brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya] is very fond of taking his pet dogs, mules or asses into the forest to hunt and kill animals unnecessarily, he is placed after death into the hell known as Pranarodha. There the assistants of Yamaraja make him their targets and pierce him with arrows.

 

PURPORT

In the Western countries especially, aristocrats keep dogs and horses to hunt animals in the forest. Whether in the West or the East, aristocratic men in the Kali-yuga adopt the fashion of going to the forest and unnecessarily killing animals. Men of the higher classes (the brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas) should cultivate knowledge of Brahman, and they should also give the sudras a chance to come to that platform. If instead they indulge in hunting, they are punished as described in this verse. Not only are they pierced with arrows by the agents of Yamaraja, but they are also put into the ocean of pus, urine and stool described in the previous verse.

 

SB 5.26.25

A person who in this life is proud of his eminent position, and who heedlessly sacrifices animals simply for material prestige, is put into the hell called Visasana after death. There the assistants of Yamaraja kill him after giving him unlimited pain.

 

PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gita (6.41) Krsna says, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto ’bhijayate: “Because of his previous connection with bhakti-yoga, a man is born into a prestigious family of brahmanas or aristocrats.” Having taken such a birth, one should utilize it to perfect bhakti-yoga. However, due to bad association one often forgets that his prestigious position has been given to him by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and he misuses it by performing various kinds of so-called yajnas like kali-puja or durga-puja, in which poor animals are sacrificed. How such a person is punished is described herein. The word dambha-yajnesu in this verse is significant. If one violates the Vedic instructions while performing yajna and simply makes a show of sacrifice for the purpose of killing animals, he is punishable after death. In Calcutta there are many slaughterhouses where animal flesh is sold that has supposedly been offered in sacrifice before the goddess Kali. The sastras enjoin that one can sacrifice a small goat before the goddess Kali once a month. Nowhere is it said that one can maintain a slaughterhouse in the name of temple worship and daily kill animals unnecessarily. Those who do so receive the punishments described herein.