Govindaram 1 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 Kulapavana: vedic system regulates ALL varnas to some degree. that is what makes people truly civilized and noble (Aryan). only certain forms of illicit sex, meat eating, gambling or intoxication are allowed in the Aryan society. ALL varnas strive to live their lives following these 4 regs as much as they can because they are the golden standard. as to concessions, for example kshatriyas may drink some liquor but not to the point of drunkennes. they may seek company of a courtesan, but never approach another man's wife or a daughter. so it is still very much a regulated life, but the set of rules is a little different. a drunk sudra is not a cause of a public alarm, just pity for their ignorance. I cannot see how this can be controlled, I wish somebody would explain in terms so everybody can understand what Varna is all about, I mean its /images/graemlins/confused.gif City. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 it is not that hard to understand, but you need to study this issue in depth. the varnas are already there - you cant escape it. you may not see it yet even in yourself, but even YOU have a certain varna /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Govindaram 1 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 Could you recommend any good sites, which explains this? I don't really want to read pages upon pages, just to get a General idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 as far as I know, there is no "executive summary" on the varnas posted somewhere on the web. not to brag, but I have spent 25 years studying this subject from various Vedic texts and applying this knowledge in practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Govindaram 1 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 Prabhuji, you should write a book then, Or at least a website page, where we can read. Come on, write here for us. This is what we want, Cream of the Varna System! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 honestly, I thought about writing on this subject, but I got discouraged since very, very few devotees are serious about implementing the varnashrama system, especially in their own life. that goes for the big ISKCON leaders as well. why waste my time? I gave many, many lectures on this subject over the years and it is always the same. nobody questions that ashrama must be clearly defined and followed by all, but somehow when it comes to varna: "oh, this is not important for us Vaishnavas". If ashrama is important so is varna. both MUST BE CONSIDERED TOGETHER. they dont call it varnashrama system for nothing. sometimes I think that the sudras and vaishyas in our movement just cant swallow their false pride and stop pretending to be brahmanas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Govindaram 1 Report post Posted May 19, 2004 Compilations <font color="blue"> Varnasrama-dharma Compiled by Hare Krsna dasi, 1998 </font color> WHY IS VARNASRAMA IMPORTANT? Srila Prabhupada explains that varnasrama-dharma is the only system of social organization which enables a person of any class to discharge his occupational duty as a form of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, thus fulfilling the ultimate goal of life. Here it is clearly stated that there are many types of yajna performances recommended in the Vedic literatures, but actually all of them are meant for satisfying the Supreme Lord. Yajna means Visnu. In the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that one should only work for satisfying Yajna, or Visnu. The perfectional form of human civilization, known as varnasrama-dharma, is specifically meant for satisfying Visnu. - Bg 9.24 PURPORT TRANSLATION O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead. PURPORT Human society all over the world is divided into four castes and four orders of life. The four castes are the intelligent caste, the martial caste, the productive caste and the laborer caste. These castes are classified in terms of one's work and qualification and not by birth. Then again there are four orders of life, namely the student life, the householder's life, the retired and the devotional life. In the best interest of human society there must be such divisions of life, otherwise no social institution can grow in a healthy state. And in each and every one of the abovementioned divisions of life, the aim must be to please the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. This institutional function of human society is known as the system of varnasrama-dharma, which is quite natural for the civilized life. The varnasrama institution is constructed to enable one to realize the Absolute Truth. It is not for artificial domination of one division over another. When the aim of life, i.e., realization of the Absolute Truth, is missed by too much attachment for indriya-priti, or sense gratification, as already discussed hereinbefore, the institution of the varnasrama is utilized by selfish men to pose an artificial predominance over the weaker section. In the Kali-yuga, or in the age of quarrel, this artificial predominance is already current, but the saner section of the people know it well that the divisions of castes and orders of life are meant for smooth social intercourse and high-thinking self-realization and not for any other purpose. Herein the statement of Bhagavatam is that the highest aim of life or the highest perfection of the institution of the varnasrama-dharma is to cooperate jointly for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. - SB 1.2.13 The distinction between human life and animal life therefore begins with the scientific system of varna and asrama, guided by the experience of the sages in relation with the demigods, gradually rising to the summit of reestablishing our eternal relation with the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna. - SB 1.16.31 PURPORT TRANSLATION The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, continued: My dear King Prthu, when one situated in his occupational duty engages in My loving service without motive for material gain, he gradually becomes very satisfied within. PURPORT This verse is also confirmed by the Visnu Purana. Occupational duties are known as varnasrama-dharma and apply to the four divisions of material and spiritual life-namely brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra, and brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. If one works according to the varnasrama-dharma system and does not desire fruitive results, he gets satisfaction gradually. Discharging one's occupational duty as a means of rendering devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of life. - SB 4.20.9 Prthu Maharaja's sole aim in ruling his kingdom was to raise the citizens to the standard of God consciousness...In the Visnu Purana it is said that the entire varnasrama institution is meant to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The rules and regulations set up for the execution of the duties of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras or brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis are all meant to satisfy the Supreme Lord. At the present moment, although the so-called brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras have lost their original culture, they claim to be brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras by birthright. Yet they have rejected the proposition that such social and spiritual orders are especially meant for worship of Lord Visnu... In Bhagavad-gita (18.46) it is said: yatah pravrttir bhutanam yena sarvam idam tatam sva-karmana tam abhyarcya siddhim vindati manavah "By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection."...The Absolute Truth is therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and every living being is meant to satisfy the Supreme Godhead by performing his respective duty (sva-karmana tam abhyarcya). Maharaja Prthu wanted to introduce this formula amongst his citizens. The most important point in human civilization is that while one engages in different occupational duties, he must try to satisfy the Supreme Lord by the execution of such duties. That is the highest perfection of life. Svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhir hari-tosanam: [sB 1.2.13] by discharging one's prescribed duty, one can become very successful in life if he simply satisfies the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The vivid example is Arjuna. He was a ksatriya, his duty was to fight, and by executing his prescribed duty he satisfied the Supreme Lord and therefore became perfect. Everyone should follow this principle. - SB 4.21.27 PURPORT The Vedic process of sense gratification is therefore planned in such a way that one can economically develop and enjoy sense gratification and yet ultimately attain liberation. Vedic civilization offers us all knowledge in the sastras, and if we live a regulated life under the direction of sastras and guru, all our material desires will be fulfilled; at the same time we will be able to go forward to liberation. - SB 4.22.34 PURPORT If we do not take to the principles of varnasrama-dharma by accepting the four social orders (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and the four orders of spiritual life (brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa), there can be no question of success in life. - SB 5.19.10 PURPORT ...If one's position is ascertained by a bona fide spiritual master and one is properly trained to engage in the service of Lord Visnu according to the four social divisions [brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra] and the four spiritual divisions [brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa], one's life becomes perfect. - SB 5.19.19 TRANSLATION According to the system of four varnas and four asramas, people generally worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, who is situated as the sun-god. With great faith they worship the Supreme Personality as the Supersoul according to ritualistic ceremonies handed down in the three Vedas, such as agnihotra and similar higher and lower fruitive acts, and according to the process of mystic yoga. In this way they very easily attain the ultimate goal of life. - SB 5.22.4 TRANSLATION The varnasrama institution offers the perfect process for making one eligible to return home, back to Godhead, because the aim of every varna and asrama is to please the Supreme Lord. - SB 6.3.13 PURPORT A civilization in which the people do not know how the representative of Narada and Krsna should be respected, how society should be formed and how one should advance in Krsna consciousness-a society concerned only with manufacturing new cars and new skyscrapers every year and then breaking them to pieces and making new ones-may be technologically advanced, but it is not a human civilization. A human civilization is advanced when its people follow the catur-varnya system, the system of four orders of life. There must be ideal, first-class men to act as advisors, second-class men to act as administrators, third-class men to produce food and protect cows, and fourth-class men who obey the three higher classes of society. One who does not follow the standard system of society should be considered a fifth-class man. - SB 6.7.13 PURPORT In Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that there are many types of yajna performances recommended in the Vedic literatures, but actually all of them are meant for satisfying the Supreme Lord. Yajna means Visnu. In the Third Chapter of Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated that one should work only for satisfying Yajna, or Visnu. The perfectional form of human civilization, known as varnasrama-dharma, is specifically meant for satisfying Visnu. - SB 7.3.24 PURPORT As confirmed in the Visnu Purana (3.8.9), varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate: by accepting the institution of varna and asrama, one can very easily elevate himself to the platform of worshiping Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise, if one remains in the bodily conception, one must rot within this material world, and his life will be a failure. - SB 7.5.5 PURPORT It is essential that society be divided into four groups of men-brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras. Here we see that although Prahlada was perfect in every respect, he nonetheless followed the instructions of the brahmanas who performed the Vedic rituals. - SB 7.10.24 PURPORT We have repeatedly stressed that human culture does not begin unless one takes to the principles of varnasrama-dharma. - SB 7.15.38-39 PURPORT As stated by Lord Siva: aradhananam sarvesam visnor aradhanam param tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarcanam (Padma Purana) Although in the Vedas there are recommendations for worshiping many demigods, Lord Visnu is the Supreme Person, and worship of Visnu is the ultimate goal of life. The Vedic principles of the varnasrama institution are meant to organize society to prepare everyone to worship Lord Visnu. varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate pantha nanyat tat-tosa-karanam "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Visnu Purana 3.8.9) One must ultimately worship Lord Visnu, and for that purpose the varnasrama system organizes society into brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras, brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis. - SB 8.20.11 PURPORT Yajnas can be performed in human society only when society is divided by varnasrama-dharma into four varnas and four asramas. Without such a regulative process, no one can perform yajnas, and without the performance of yajnas, no material plans can make human society happy at any time. - SB 9.14.47 PURPORT According to Vedic principles, there must be divisions of human society (catur-varnyam maya srstam [bg. 4.13]). There should be brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras, and everyone should learn to worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead (tam abhyarcya). This is real human society, and without this system we are left with animal society. - SB 10.2.34 PURPORT Although it has become fashionable to speak of daridra-narayana, the words visnor aradhanarthaya do not mean that all the people satisfied by Nanda Maharaja in this great ceremony were Visnus. They were not daridra, nor were they Narayana. Rather, they were devotees of Narayana, and by their educational qualifications they would satisfy Narayana. Therefore, satisfying them was an indirect way of satisfying Lord Visnu. Mad-bhakta-pujabhyadhika [sB 11.19.21]. The Lord says, "Worshiping My devotees is better than worshiping Me directly." The varnasrama system is entirely meant for visnu-aradhana, worship of Lord Visnu. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman/ visnur aradhyate (Visnu Purana 3.8.9). The ultimate goal of life is to please Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord. - SB 10.5.15-16 PURPORT Krsna has begun in this chapter, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [bg. 4.13]. That is very essential, the varnasrama-dharma. Because we must have the aim of life. At the present moment there is no aim of life. The aim of life is sense gratification. That's all. - Bg 4.16 LECTURE Bombay 5 April 1974 The Hindu name is given by the Mohammedans. Actually, our dharma is varnasrama-dharma, four varnas and four asramas. That is the real name, varnasrama-dharma. The whole Vedic culture is dependent on varn asrama. It is meant for everyone, not that it is meant for Indians only, no. - Bg 18.45 LECTURE Durban 11 October 1975 Formerly there was no such piecework. One world, one king. One God, Krsna. One scripture, Vedas. One civilization, varnasrama-dharma. - SB 2.4.2 LECTURE Los Angeles 26 June 1972 So according to this varnasrama, there must be training. Some classes of men must be trained as nice brahmanas. Some people must be trained as nice ksatriyas. Some people must be trained as nice vaisyas. And sudra does not require any... Everyone is sudra. Janmana jayate sudrah. By birth, everyone is sudra. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. By training, one becomes vaisya, one becomes ksatriya, one becomes brahmana. - SB 1.2.28-29 LECTURE Vrndavana 8 November 1972 Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma: brahmacari, grhastha, vana prastha, sannyasa, and brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. - SB 3.25.22 LECTURE Bombay 22 November 1974 So similarly, sva-karmana tam abhyarcya. Everyone has got his some particular duty, occupation. If, by executing your occupational duty, you worship Krsna, then your life is perfect. That is the instruction given in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Naimisaranya. atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhir hari-tosanam [sB 1.2.13] Atah pumbhir dvija-sresthah. Pumbhih, by person. Everyone is engaged in some occupational duty. Formerly it was the varnasrama: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, and brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi. Everyone has got some particular duty according to his position. Now, the different occupational duties have expanded. It doesn't matter. If you are engineer, if you are medical man, if you are something else, it doesn't matter. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya. But try to serve Krsna by the result of your work. That is bhakti. - SB 3.25.24 LECTURE Bombay 24 November 1974 Vedic religion... Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. That is... Krsna says, God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam [bg. 4.13]. So that is, what is called, obligatory. Just like law is obligatory. You cannot say that "I don't take this law." No. You have to take it if you want to have a happy [society]. - Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal New Vrndavana 28 June 1976, Our destruction of this material body does not mean we, as spirit soul, we are destroyed. No. To understand this truth, the varnasrama system required. Without this varnasrama system nobody can understand that we are individual person, we existed in the past, and we shall exist in the future, and we are existing at present. - SB 5.6.10 LECTURE Bombay 28 December 1976 Actually, we, the followers or Vedic principles, our system is varnasrama- dharma, four varnas and four asramas...Varnasrama-dharma is applicable in any, in anywhere. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [bg. 4.13]. The creation of God... Just like sun. Sun is creation of God. Sun is visible everywhere. Not that something [is] American sun and something Indian sun. No. The sun is the same. Similarly, catur-varnyam, the four principles of division, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra, they are everywhere. It is not the monopoly of India. - The Nectar of Devotion LECTURE Vrndavana 27 October 1972 These varnas and asramas have their respective duties, and unless human society is divided according to these eight scientific divisions and everyone acts according to his position, there can be no peace in the world. varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman visnur aradhyate pantha nanyat tat-tosa-karanam "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Visnu Purana 3.8.9) - Teachings of Lord Kapiladeva Vs 3, Text 3 Yajna means we have to satisfy the Supreme Person. That is called yajna. And this process can be executed when the human society is very regulated. Regulated means there must be division of these varnas and asramas. Varna means four varnas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. And four asramas: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. They have got their respective duties. So unless the human society is divided into these eight scientific divisions and everyone acts according to his position, there cannot be any peace in the world. That is called varnasrama. - SB 3.25.3 LECTURE Bombay 3 November 1974 So any, any society you conceive, unless there are these four divisions, there will be chaos. It will be, not be properly, I mean to say, going on, smoothly going on. There will be some disturbance. Brain must be there. So at the present moment there is scarcity of brain. I am not talking of your state or my state. I am taking the world as it is. The brain... Formerly the Indian administration was going on in monarchy. Just like this picture. This picture is a ksatriya king. Before his death he renounced his, I mean to say, royal order and he came to the forest to hear about self-realization. So if you want to maintain the peace and prosperity of the whole worldly social order, you must create a class of men very intelligent, a class of men very expert in administration, a class of men very expert in production, and a class of men to work. That is required. You cannot avoid it. That is the Vedic conception. Mukha-bahuru-padebhyah. They say, mukha... Mukha means the face. Bahu means the arm. Uru means this, this, or waist. And pada. So anywhere, either you take this state or that state-doesn't matter-unless there is a smooth, systematic establishment of these four orders of life, the state or the society will not go very smoothly. - Conversation with Prof. Kotovsky Moscow 22 June 1971 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 i do not think that special efforts are required, simply there's to follow the gita. Devotional service is to dedicate our life, as it is, to sri krsna and not to change our occupation or escape our duties to became devotees everyone has naturally his varna, we take birth with a karma and gunas. So varna is already there, we have simply to turn it in a "daivi" varna offering our activities to krsna, living for krsna ashrama is more easy... who can avoid sex is brahmachary/vanaprasta/sannyasi.. who cannot is grihasta Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 Post deleted by yasodanandana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 if no special effort was required in this area why would Srila Prabhupada say that without re-establishing varnashrama system 50% of his mission is unfulfilled? he put tremendous effort into the first 50%. why do you think the rest will happen without effort? 27 years after his passing from our view it is still NOT THERE. even on an individual level it requires effort to understand your varna, learn the applicable principles and act accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 the effort has to be put on explaining, like Krsna does in the Gita, that surrendering has nothing to do with changing activities and refusing the duties that the karma (that ultimately is krsna) has given to us if i understand that i can, or better, i must find pure devotion being a doctor, a soldier, a musician, a sweeper, a taxi driver and offering myself and my activities to krsna, chanting hare krsna and following a bona fide spiritual master... if i understand this there's not much more to say as very often happens we have simply complicated the things thinking that the standard of devotional life is the temple, the ascetism (exactly as arjuna believes before listening to krsna, and krsna has to speak the gita to explain the simplest way) what do you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 as long as the majority of devotees do not see a need to work on this varna issue certainly nothing will change. I have no illusions that the vaishya and sudra type devotees in our movement are able and/or willing to pursue the SP's mission as far as varnashrama is concerned. I'm just disappointed that our brahmanas and kshatriyas ignore this issue. They are the ones who can do the explaining to others, especially if they have prominent positions in our society of devotees. the talk about offering your activities to Krishna has been around for decades. I think the main thing we need now is open declaration by all devotees as to what their varna is, and subsequent action according to the principles of that varna. to give some examples: sudras should not manage projects and brahmanas should not try to get rich and live in opulence. vaishyas should earn money honestly, not by fly by night scams. when vaishyas give their hard earned money to sudra project managers - of course the money will be mismanaged! to me, this is all very, very relevant - both inside and outside the temples. in my "outside" life I'm a manager of a 30+ employee commercial laboratory. I use this knowledge every day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 as long as the majority of devotees do not see a need to work on this varna issue certainly nothing will change. x I simply do not see what is there to work on... i have already a job, a place in the society, one day i meet devotees, start to chant hare krishna, then i take shelter in the guru, then i go on chanting hare krishna without changing my life... varna is natural, everyone is born in a varna without making anything, our duty is to add the "ashrama" practising spiritual consciousness the talk about offering your activities to Krishna has been around for decades. x I do not think so... for years we did believe that our natural varna's activities had to be forgotten and we had to go to the temple and turn ourselves in brahmins I think the main thing we need now is open declaration by all devotees as to what their varna is, and subsequent action according to the principles of that varna. x. the varna is very easy to discover, if i know that you earn your life as a taxi driver i know also that you belong to the taxi driver's varna and you offer this activity to krsna to me, this is all very, very relevant - both inside and outside the temples. in my "outside" life I'm a manager of a 30+ employee commercial laboratory. I use this knowledge every day. x. so being you a devotee you offer your belonging to the manager's varna to krsna, and your employee, if he's a devotee, offer his employee's life to krsna. I do not understand what there's more to do. The temple or the iskcon has not much to do with our private lifes in that matter, they live in temples that they manage, we live in houses that we manage.. we are connected in the purpose of chanting hare krishna, remembering krsna, spreading krsna consciousness. What temple presidents or GBCs have to do with the private life of devotees? or i simply have not understood your point Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 "to give some examples: sudras should not manage projects and brahmanas should not try to get rich and live in opulence. vaishyas should earn money honestly, not by fly by night scams. when vaishyas give their hard earned money to sudra project managers - of course the money will be mismanaged!" problems arise when people's varnas are mismatched with their responsibilities. they are not happy and the results are terrible too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 20, 2004 i completely agree, it is a great disgrace ... but if you are doing a job that is not fit for you, for example you are a musician but you are strict to work as a sweeper, or you are a doctor only because your father was a famous doctor with a big studio.... what the devotees organization has to do with it ? who from the temple and how can he remedy to mismatches? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 21, 2004 once you determine and openly declare your varna you must act accordingly. vaishyas or even brahmanas should not have wide range administrative powers, even in devotional institutions. if a person with brahmana nature decides to act as a kshatriya, he has to stick to that varna and not try to be BOTH. sannyasis with big administrative powers and opulent lifestyle are an oxymoron and a proven recipe for disaster. in very, very exceptional situations that may be unavoidable for a short time, but acting outside your varna creates NOTHING BUT DISTURBANCE. as a society of devotees we have a long, long way ahead of us if we decide to fulfill SP's plan to implement varnashrama in our society. who can remedy the situation in our temples? obviously the devotees who run the show, but right now they are having hard time getting ANYBODY to fill the temples, let alone people of the right varna. why? mainly because their varna is mismatched as well. mismanaged temples become empty temples. it comes from the top, or as Romans would say: fish rots from the head... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 21, 2004 because it is impossible to determine your varna. Today, you think you have brahmin nature, tomorrow, it is ksatriya and day after, it could be vaisya and what not. How r u going to find out which is real varna? And if yuou say a person should stick to one varna, you're curbing his freedom. Or if you give him freedom to choose his varna, then everybody would love to be brahmin or kshatriya and not sudra. That would again create imbalance. Think about it, prabhu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vanamali 1 Report post Posted May 21, 2004 Even if you are brahmin, you can do the work of kshatriya or vaishya if you come on hard times. Also kshatriya can do the work of a vaishya if he needs the money. (This notwithstanding, one is supposed to return to one's own duty as soon as possible). I think if it is up to you to decide your varna, definitely no-one will choose sudra, no? I have married into a kshatriya family, so I am kind of an adopted kshatriya. That made it easy for me. Anyway, hopefully Krishna will take you home at the end of this life, so what does it matter what your varna is. What is your occupation? This will tell you what your varna is. What is your aptitude? Stick to whatever job you're fit for even if it becomes difficult. This is varna. ~Vanamali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kulapavana 0 Report post Posted May 21, 2004 "because it is impossible to determine your varna" maybe for you it is. varna does not change much. pretty much it is your natural tendency. I can usually tell someone's varna after some acquaintence without too much difficulty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yasodanandana 0 Report post Posted May 21, 2004 i have understood that you are speaking of implementation of some varna system in the temple managing or the activities of congregation... i think that the varnashrama implementation spoken by prabhupada is more on the side of spreading krsna consciousness in the general society through teaching to devote our activities to krsna without changing them externally then then i find unreal and maybe useless to have someone at the local temple telling to adult people "you are a ksatrya, you a sudra, you a vaisha .. " and so on. Maybe this can be done with the gurukula children, but actually it is the thing that the parents are doing all over the world choosing or giving advices to their sons and daughters about the kind of school and university "who can remedy the situation in our temples?" the fact is that we have built and bought temples in the mode of passion, believing that all the people who joined in the 70s and 80s would remain there forever frustrating their real propensities... and now we pay the karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Govindaram 1 Report post Posted May 22, 2004 Hare Krsna, I am Thinking if Varna is established there would be more money, people wouldn't spend money on mundane items like i.e Pop Records/drugs/etc, also what I feel Yashada-nanada is saying that peoples are mostly already in their Varna, so engage them from there, make it simple, what ya think? It all sounds simple from what your both devotees are saying, but of-course it is not so, what are Vaishnava's doing about it? Or is it not so much the right time? So what are we going to do about it? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
