we have also come down from Vaikuntha

[ancient_paztriot 0]

If you knew the beginnings of, let's say, your original fall…

 

Would you then want to know everything inbetween?

 

Does it really matter? Uh, counting the steps backwards?

[AncientMariner 0]

 

 

 

I was just reading the 7th Canto the other night and it was talking about how the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha Jaya and Vijaya were cursed to take birth as demons in the material world because they forbade the four sage sons of Brahma from entering. I don't know how this applies to us ordinary jivas and if we have ever been in Vaikuntha but it sure is an interesting story and it is speculation on my part but it appears if you do go back to Vaikuntha at least theoretically you could be forced to take birth again if you do something wrong although I imagine that is a very rare circumstance.

[Guest guest]

Actually Jaya and Vijaya Kumara's were not 'in' Vaikuntha, but gatekeepers, on the borderline. Still I think I read somewhere that technically anyone can fall down because of desire which I understand to be freewill. That doesn't mean many do!

[danava 0]

Dear Bhaktas, please accept my dandavats,

All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

a few days ago I started with "fall/not fall" research and until today I am still searching the Truth.

 

I write this because I am looking for person who has read Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's book "Jaiva-dharma" and can give some commentaries here. Or maybe there is devotee who has read books of other Acaryas of our Guru Parampara like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Paramahamsa Prabhupada.

 

Reading excerpts from Jaiva-dharma I have developed this understanding:

 

1) The really eternal religion (dharma) comes from our nature. What is our nature? - Our nature jiva-shakti. Shakti means energy. What is the business for energy? The business for energy is to serve its Master --Sri Krishna. So the truth is that I am a Vaisnava, servant of Sri Sri Radha Krishna!

Then Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Maharaja explains that due to wrong association nature of existing entity (vastu) can adopt __temporary nature__ and so temporary duties/religion (dharma) arises from it.

---

So if my eternal dharma is to be Krishna's servant how could one insist that I am eternally manifested in the material world, this stinking realm of self enjoyment illusions????? Furthermore Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Maharaja Paramahamsa Prabhupada explains the meaning of word "nitya" in the sanskrit term "nitya-baddha". The explanation is that "we cannot trace when we come into being in the realm of maya so for this the word nitya is used" How happy I was when I had read exactly the same from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada! I would like to hear if similar explanations are found in books of other Acaryas of our and not our parampara.

 

2.1) There are different kinds of Krishna servants. Some of them are nitya-siddhi. They are not jivas. Srimati Radharani is not jiva. She is innermost energy of Krsna then she expands herself into forms of eight other gopis etc. So the nitya siddhi are not jiva-shakti (tatastha-shakti), they belong to cit-shakti -- inner energy of Sri Krishna, Govinda, Shyamasundara. They never "fall". They can't, they have slightly different nature than jiva. They don't have so much of free will like we. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Maharaja writes in the Jaiva-dharma that desires of Srimati Radhika and other nitya-siddhis are subordinate to desires of Sri Krishna. This is why it is said that they are sometimes unaware about material world at all.

--

Because nitya-siddhi devotees belong to cit-shakti they never fall.

 

2.2)But we are jivas, we are "made of" jiva-shakti, which is also known as tatastha-shakti. What does it mean tatastha?

Sanskrit word "tata" means subtle line between water and land.

(I am eager to go to the river and have a look at it, but right now here is a winter and all rivers are frozen /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So water in this example is alive consciousness energy, sand is inanimate matter. We "belong" to the edge between the two.

By nature we are 'water', means we are spirit, we have nothing to do with material world. So in this sense we are inner energy of Sri Hari (apareyem itas tvanyam prakritim viddhi me param -- beside this low energy there is my other, high energy; jiva bhutta maha baho yayedam dharyate jagat which is all living entyties.. BG7.5 )

So is the tatastha some place in the spiritual world where jivas are located and where they simultaneously see Krsna and maya and make their choice? No. Tata-(edge between river and shore)-stha(situated) is used to describe our nature. And this nature is that we have some free will (Jaiva-dharma chapters 14-16) without this freewill we would be of any value to Lord Sri Hari, we would be the same as inanimate matter. Inner energies of Sri Krishna have consciousness, Brahman is consciousness. Outer energy has no consciousness this is why it is considered to be dead. Indeed when living entity in this world lefts its material body the body becomes inanimate and shows neither signs of consciousness nor any other signs of life.

How much freewill do we have? Not so much. We have just enough of freewill to say yes or to say no to Krishna. That is all the choice we have. We cannot live independent from Krishna. We control nothing. We are under control. This is why in this material world we need assistance of Paramatma to literally do everything. Eating, sleeping, passing stool, perceiving the world, "acting" -- all the "activity" is actually done by the Owner of energies - shaktiman. We are not shaktimans, we are shakti ourselves.

So the only choice is to love or not to love. This could be under Krishna's control, finally he is the shaktiman owner of the shakti, I am the shakti - owned by Him, but Sri Krishna wants to love and to be loved. So in case with jiva-shakti He gives us this choice.

What does it mean to have a choice? That means jiva has two ways to go, two ways to direct his (actually her) love - 1) to Krishna 2) to herself

So those jivas who direct their love towards Sri Krishna remain in the abode of Krishna and those who out of misusing their free will want to be "enjoyers" go to realm where they may "enjoy." Krishna is fully aware what this realm of miseries is. "Abrahma bhuvanal lokah BG 8.16" - every place in this world even Brahmaloka is place of miseries. This is why *after achieving service to Sri Krishna, nobody is willing to return to miseries.

There are several places in the Bhagavad-gita where worlds like "nivartante" and "punar janma" are used. Nivartante means "to return" and "punar janma" means to be born again. I can easily accept this truth!

Yes after so many sufferings in this material madness, having achieving the Krishnaloka I will never comeback to this world, I will never be born in material body again!

Why? I am not that stupid I will be taught a good lesson.

 

Our original position is to serve Krishna.

 

3) The time and space in spiritual works and the time and space in the material world are completely different concepts. With this question I am really weak since it requires intensive meditation and some experience would be also good. I have only material experience in my disposition so how can I meditate on spiritual time and spiritual space? I have read that they are different from material ones. There is neither past nor future in the Vaikuntha world there is only eternal present, yet there are different actions and they change one each other so we see all these wonderful pastimes of Sri Sri Radha Krishna.

The spiritual space is also different from material one. Krishna is form and formless, Krishna is the most powerful yet in the same time He is little boy and allows his mother to punish Him. Krishna is the biggest and the smallest. All what exist is residing in the Krishna, but Krishna Himself (together with all the universes etc) is smaller that the smallest atom in this world! How to understand that? Even in the material world some scientists like Albert Einstein have theories that time and space can be relative (those interested can go to library and search for Relativistic Theory). From spiritual literatures we know that time on higher planets is different from ours 1 day of Brahma is X billions of days in Earth.

So I am trying to accept this idea, and beg you to either support it with references to the guru-sadhu-shastra or criticize it for my benefit:

1) "Zero 'time duration' on Vaikuntha is eternity in the material world"

2) "Zero space on Vaikuntha is infinity for material world"

That means that yes we have fallen in the material world from Krishna lila and we have been "here" for material "eternity".

 

*This is why the words like "nitya-baddha" and "anadi karma" are used.

*Yet when we will return to our pure consciousness, our pure nature, which is pure loving devotion to Lord Sri Hari, Govinda, Gopala, Shyamasundara, Radha-ramana, Hrishikesha, Narayana we will found ourselves exactly in the place and time still doing the same loving devotional service as it "was" in the "moment" of fall down.

**This means that we have never fall down. Because we were not absent in Krishna lila even for a moment!!

 

Yet something will be changed - we will have true hate for slightest idea to enter ("fall down") into these sticking dreams (material world) again. Yad gatva na nivartante - tad dhama paramam mama.

So actually while being in material world - we are sleeping and having bad dreams! All we have to do is to wake up. Jivjago! Jivjago! Gaurachandra bole (wake up! Wake up, sings Lord Gaurachandra /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Dear devotees please accept my most humble dandavats and please excuse this soul for posting such a long message, please be merciful to me.

This question is *life important* to me so I am waiting for your responses.

 

Your servant,

Yuriy (aka danava).

 

[Guest guest]

In the seventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, it states that the 4 Kumara boys cursed Jai and Vijai to fall down from the gates of Vaikuntha and live in the mortal world. Then after that, when Narayaan came out of Vaikuntha to see this disturbance, the four kumaras smelled the Tulasi at His feet and became Vaishnavas. So, if these Kumaras were not even Vaishnavas yet, then how could they have the power to curse a devotee such as these servants of Narayaan named Jai and Vijai, to fall down from their service to the Lord? It is impossible. Read the stories about Maharaj Ambarisha and Durvasa in the Bhagavatam to see the effects of cursing a servant of Vishnu. Also, Citraketu was cursed by Parvati to become Vrtrasura, but in the end Vrtrasura went to Vaikuntha, while Indra (his killer) staid in the material world.

 

Narayaan says to Jai and Vijai that they had committed some offence to Lakshmidevi and so for this reason they were going to fall down. Also, they were at the gates of Vaikuntha. But nowhere in Bhagavatam does it say they had ever been inside Vaikuntha.

 

- Muralidhar

[Guest guest]

 

Sri Brahma Samhita, TEXT 21

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakritis ca paraiva sa

 

WORD FOR WORD:

sah--that (jiva); nityah--eternal; nitya-sambandhah--possessing an eternal relationship; prakrtih--potency; ca--and; para--spiritual; eva--certainly; sa--that.

 

TRANSLATION

The same jiiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

 

PURPORT (by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati)

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jives are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Gita it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krishna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/brahma-samhita3.htm

[Guest guest]

21 The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.**

 

Commentary by Srila Jiva Gosvami

 

In this verse the author describes the relationship between the individual spirit soul and the Supreme Lord. The word "nitya" here means "for all time, without either beginning or end". This means that as the sun and the sunlight have an eternal relationship, so the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit soul also have an eternal relationship. In Sri Narada-pancaratra it is said:

 

"The individual spirit soul is spiritual and conscious. It lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. It can leave that border, enter the material world, and become contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul."

 

In the Bhagavad-gita (15.7) Lord Krsna declares;

 

"The living entities in this conditioner world are My parts and parcels and they are eternal."*

 

The individual spirit soul is an impartial judge, a witness of both the original spiritual world and the reflection that is the material world. In that sense the individual soul is called "prakrti". This use of the word "prakrti" is seen in these words spoken by Lord Krsna in Bhagavad-gita (7.5):

 

"There is a superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities."

 

The eternal relationship between the Supreme Lord and the individual spirit souls is also seen in these words of Mundaka Upanisad (3.1.1) and Svetasvatara Upanisad (4.6):

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual spirit soul are like two friendly birds sitting on the same tree."

[Guest guest]

Sri Jiva Goswami's statement is perfectly clear.

 

The soul can decide to leave "the border between the spiritual and material worlds" and enter the material world.

 

In that borderline existence, according to Sri Brahma Samhita, the souls are existing like rays of sunlight surrounding the sun.

 

Did anyone ever fall from Vaikuntha? There is no statement anywhere in the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Chaitanya Caritamrta etc. which says that any souls have ever fallen from Vaikuntha. Sometimes for lila, Krishna's associates come to this world. But there is no statement anywhere in the Vedic literature that a soul can fall from Vaikuntha and become engrossed in samsara, permanently.

 

[Guest guest]

SB 7.1.33: Narada Muni continued: O best of the Pandavas, your two cousins Sisupala and Dantavakra, the sons of your maternal aunt, were formerly associates of Lord Visnu, but because they were cursed by brahmanas, they fell from Vaikuntha to this material world.

 

SB 7.1.34: Maharja Yudhisthira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated visnu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.

 

SB 7.1.35: The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

 

[Admin5: edited to remove diacritics that didn't transfer properly]

[Guest guest]

It is to be noted that in Narada's story of Jai and Vijai, he makes the point that they fell to earth to assist in the lila of Narayaan. He certainly does not make any statement to contradict Yudhisthira's statement "For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this."

[Guest guest]

Please note the Sanskrit for this verse:

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.34

 

sri yudhisthira uvaca

kidrsah kasya va sapo

hari-dasabhimarsanah

asraddheya ivabhati

harer ekantinam bhavah

 

 

sri yudhisthira uvaca - King Yudhisthira said; kidrsah - what kind of; kasya - whose; va - or ; sapah - curse

hari-dasa - the servant of hari; abhimarsanah - overcoming

asraddheya - incredible; iva - as if; abhati - appears

harer - of Hari ; ekantinam - of those exclusively devoted and exalted attendants; bhavah - take birth

 

The Sanskrit says "take birth". It does not say "take birth again".

 

Yudhisthira is saying, "For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this."

[danava 0]

that is Sri Narayana lila /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nobody has any power, only Sri Krishna, Narayana.

krsnas tu bhagavan svayam

So nobody can really curse nobody. Everything what happens to such elevated persons like Jai and Vijai is Sri Krishna lila. Remember what happened then with these great souls? They take so significant part in Sri Krishna lilas.

Even that episode with Jahai and Madhai -- I think like it was needed to show mercy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.