Dialectic Spiritualism Highlights 4

[ethos]

I'm starting #4 here because my slow modem takes awhile to load long threads. This way, it's easier on the viewers and the server.

 

I am transcribing "Dialectic Spiritualism" for my own purposes. Below you will find highlights from that book. Check back for additions.

 

I would prefer that no replies be made. It will be a long enough thread without replies. These threads are simply provided for the benefit of those who might benefit from them.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered the material world restricted to limitations of time and space, but the spiritual world transcends both.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Hayagriva dasa: He also believed that time began with the creation of the material world. How does this relate to the Vedic version?

Srila Prabhupada: Time is eternal. The past, present, and future are three features of time, but they are relative. Your past, present, and future are not the same as those of Brahma. Brahma lives for millions of years, and within this span we may have many pasts, presents, and futures. these are relative according to the person, but time itself is eternal. Is that clear? Past, present, and future are relative according to the body, but time has no past, present, or future.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Plato considered material nature, or prakrti, to have always been existing in a chaotic state. God takes matter and fashions it into form in order to create the universe.

Srila Prabhupada: More precisely, Krsna sets prakrti in motion, and the products are manifesting automatically. A printer may set up a press in such a way that many magazines can be printed completely. The seeds, or bijams, are created by God in such a way that creations are manifest automatically. These seeds are God’s machines. he has created these seeds only. The seed of the entire universe is coming from Him. Yasyaika-nisvasita kalam athavalambya (Brahma-samhita 5.48). When God breathes, millions of seeds of universes emanate from Hs body, and we call ths creation. When He inhales, they return, and we call this annihilation. Things are manifest or unmanifest depending on His breathing. When He exhales, everything is manifest. When He inhales, everything is finished. Only a fool thinks that God’s breathing and our breathing are the same. Bhagavad-gita says:

 

“Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.” (Bg. 9.11)

 

Even Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were bewildered to see that this cowherd boy is God Himself.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s word for God is demiurge, which in Greek means master builder, architect, or hand-worker.

Srila Prabhupada: In Sanskrit this is called srsöi-karta, but this conception is secondary. Lord Brahma is and Brahma is srsti-karta, and Brahma is inspired by Krsna. The original master, Krsna, is not srsti-karta becasue he does not do anything directly. As stated in the Vedas: sva-bhaviki jnana-balakriya ca. “His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence.” (Svetasvatara-upanisad 6.8) As soon as He wants something done, it is actualized. Sa aiksata––sa imal lokan asrjata (Aitareya-upanisad 1.1.1-2) When he glances at matter, creation takes place immediately. His energy is so perfect that simply by willing and glancing, everything is immediately and perfectly created. For instance, this flower is Krsna’s energy. It requires a highely talented brain to color it and adjust it in such a way, but it is growing automatically. This is the way of Krsna’s energy. This flower is a very small thing, but the entire cosmic manifestation is created on the same basis. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Krsna has multi-energies, fine and subtle. As soon as Krsna thinks, “This thing must come into being immediately,” that thing is prepared by so many subtle energies. Krsna doesn’t have to do anything with His hands. He simply desires something, and it is created. Lord Brahma is supposed to be the direct creator of the universe, but there are millions of universs and millions of Brahmas. There are also millions of suns and other luminaries. There is no limit, and all this material creation is but the energy of Krsna.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Plato conceives of God as the essence of perfection, the supreme ideal, and the supreme good.

Srila Prabhupada: According to Parasara Muni, perfection belongs to Him who has complete knowledge, wealth, beauty, power, fame, and renunciation. God has everything in full, and there is no vacancy in Him.

Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s philosophy points to a personal conception, but there is no idea of what God looks like, or what He says.

Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic literature not only present this person but describe Him.

 

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, whose blossoming eyes are like lotus petals, whose head is bedecked with peacock’s feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids.” (Brahma-saàhita 5.30)

 

In this way, Lord Krsna’s form and activities are concretely described. In the Vedas, everything is factual. Plato thinks that the creator may be a person, but he does not know what kind of person He is, nor does he know of His engagements.

HayagrÆva d¢sa: Later, in the Republic, in the allegory of the cave mentioned before, Socrates states that in the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with greaty difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. he considers this form to be the cause of whatever is right and good. He states that without having had a vision of this form, one cannot act with wisdom, neither in his own life, nor in matters of state. Here again, form is mentioned, but not personality.

Srila Prabhupada: That is contradictory. As soon as we understand that there are instructions from God, we must understand that there is form, and when we understand that there is form, we must understand that there is personality. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna:

 

“Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (Bg. 2.12)

 

This means that in the past, present, and future, Krsna, Arjuna, and all other living entities exist as personalitites and have form. there is no question of formlessness. Krsna never said that in the past we were formless and that only in the present we have form. Rather, He condemns the impersonal version that says when God takes on form, that form is illusion, maya.

 

“Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, which is changeless and supreme.” (Bg. 7.24)

 

In this way, the impersonalitst who claim that God is ultimately formless are condemned as abuddhayah, unintelligent. When one maintains that God accepts a body composed of maya, he is called a Mayavadi.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: For Plato, perfection within the world of the senses can never be attained.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is correct. everything material has some defect. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna:

 

“Every endeavor is covered by some fault, just as fire is covered by smoke. Therefore one should not give up the work born of his nature, O son of Kunti, even if such work is full of fault.” (Bg. 18.48)

 

If we execute our prescribed duties according to the sastras, we can still attain perfection, even though there are some defects. Through Krsna consciousness, everyone can become perfect, regardless of his situation. A brahmana may give knowledge, a ksatriya may give protection, a vaisya may provide food, and a sudra may provide general help for everyone. Although there may be imperfections in the execution of our duty, perfection can be attained by following the injunctions.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Later, in the Republic, in the allegory of the cave mentioned before, Socrates states that in the world of knowledge, the last thing to be perceived, and only with greaty difficulty, is the essential form of goodness. he considers this form to be the cause of whatever is right and good. He states that without having had a vision of this form, one cannot act with wisdom, neither in his own life, nor in matters of state. Here again, form is mentioned, but not personality.

Srila Prabhupada: That is contradictory. As soon as we understand that there are instructions from God, we must understand that there is form, and when we understand that there is form, we must understand that there is personality. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna:

 

“Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.” (Bg. 2.12)

 

This means that in the past, present, and future, Krsna, Arjuna, and all other living entities exist as personalitites and have form. There is no question of formlessness. Krsna never said that in the past we were formless and that only in the present we have form. Rather, He condemns the impersonal version that says when God takes on form, that form is illusion, maya.

 

“Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, the do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.” (Bg. 7.24)

 

In this way, the impersonalitst who claim that God is ultimately formless are condemned as abuddhayah, unintelligent. When one maintains that God accepts a body composed of maya, he is called a Mayavadi.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Plato perceives that every object in the universe is made with some purpose, and its ideal goal is to move toward the ideal in which its archetype or essence resides. According to the Vedic version, Krsna is the all-attractive object of the universe; therefore all things must be m,oving toward Him. How is it that the individual soul apparently turns from Krsna to participate in the world of birth and death?

Srila Prabhupada: That is due to maya, illusion. He should not have deviated, but due to the influence of maya, he is deviating and consequently suffering. Therefore Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekaà (Bg. 18.66). “Stop this material plan making, surrender unto me, and do what I say. Then you will be happy.” This is very practical. According to Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are now forgetful of their relationship with God. They have taken on these material bodies because they have a desire to imitate God. They cannot be God, but simply imitations. A woman may dress like a man, but she cannot become a man despite her dress. The living entity, being part and parcel of God, may believe that he is just like God, the supreme enjoyer, and he may think, “I shall enjoy myself.” However, because he is not the actual enjoyer, he is given a false platform for enjoying. That platform is the material world. On this false platform, the individual soul experiences frustration. It cannot be said that this frustration is one step forward towards his real life. If one is actually intelligent, he thinks, “Why am I being frustrated? What is real perfection?” This is the beginning of the Vedanta-sutra: athato brahma jijæasa. When he becomes frustrated with the material world, the living entity asks, “What is Brahman?” For instance, Sanatana Gosvami was a finance minister, but when he became frustrated, he approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Our real life begins when we become frustrated with material existence and approach a real spiritual master. If we do not do this, we will certainly be frustrated in whatever we attempt in this material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam says:

 

“As long as one does not inquire about the spiritual values of life, one is defeated and subjected to miseries arising from ignorance. Be it sinful or pious, karma has its resultant actions. If a person is engaged in any kind of karma, his mind is called karmatmaka, colored with fruitive activity. As long as the mind is impure, consciousness is unclear, and as long as one is absorbed in fruitive activity, he has to accept a material body.” (Bhag. 5.5.5)

 

In ignorance, the living entity tries to approach the ideal life, but he is ultimately defeated. When he understands what he is, he knows, “I am not matter; I am spirit.” When he understands this, he begins to make spiritual inquiries, and by this, he can again return home, back to Godhead.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: For Plato, perfect happiness lies in attempting to become godly. Insofar as man is godly, he is ethical. Evil forces within man combat his efforts to attain this ultimate goal. But Plato was not a determinist; he emphasized freedom of the will, and insisted tha evil acts are due to man’s failure to meet his responsibililties. Evil does not come from God, who is all good.

Srila Prabhupada: Everything comes from God, but we have to make our choice. Both the university and the prison are government institutions, but the prison is meant for criminals, and the university for scholars. The government spends money to maintain both institutions, but we make our choice either to go to prison or the university. That is the minute independence present in every human being. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says:

 

“I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him.” (Bg. 9.29)

 

It is not that out of envy God makes someone unhappy and someone else happy. This is not God’s business. Happiness and unhappiness are our creation. The government does not tell us to become criminals, but it is our fault if we become criminals and suffer. Of course, God is ultimately responsible. God gives us suffering or happiness, but we create the situation which is made into fact by the potency of God.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Concerning education, it is stated in the Republic: “the soul of evey man possesses the power of learning the truth and the organ to see it with. Just as one might have to turn the whole body around for the eye to see light instead of darkness. So the entire soul must be turned away from this changing world, until its eye can bear to contemplate reality and that supreme splendor which we have called the Good. Hence there may well be an art whose aim would be to affect this power of sight into the soul’s eye, which already has it, but to insure that, instead of looking in the wrong direction, it is turned the way it ought to be.”

Srila Prabhupada: That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. It is certainly an art. It is a process of purifying the senses. When the senses are purified, our main objective is attained. We do not say that sensory activities are to be stopped. They are to be redirected. Presently, the eyes are seeing things material. The eyes want to see beautiful objects, and we say, “Yes, you can see the beautiful form of Krsna.” The tongue wants to taste palatable food, and we say, “Yes, you can take this Krsna prasadam, but do not eat meat or other foods you cannot offer to Krsna.” Everything is given; we simply have to purify the senses. According to Bhagavad-gita:

 

“The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.” (Bg. 2.59)

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Neither Socrates nor Plato ever mentions service to God, though they speak of the contemplation of God’s reality, or the supreme splendor, or good. It is always contemplation or meditation that is stressed, as in jnana-yoga.

Srila Prabhupada: This is but one process of knowing God, and it may be partially helpful to know God as He is. However, when we come to know God, we understand, “He is great, and I am small.” It is the duty of the small to serve the great. That is nature’s way. Everyone is serving in one way or another, but when we realize theat we are servants and not the master, we realize our real position. It is our natural position to serve. if someone doesn’t have a family to serve, he keeps a dozen dogs and serves them. Especially in Western countries, we see that in old age, when one has no children, he keeps two or three dogs and tries to serve them. Our position as servant is always there, but when we think that we are masters, we are illusioned. The word maya means that we are serving while thinking that we are masters. Maya means “that which is not” or, “that which is not factual.” Through meditation, when we become realized, we can understand, “Oh, I am a servant. Presently I am serving maya, illusion. Now let me serve Krsna.” This is perfection. The spiritual master engages us from the very beginning in the service of God. Then we can attain perfection quickly.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: In The Republic, Plato constructs an ideal state in which the leaders possess nothing of their own, neither property nor family. He felt that people should live together in a community where wives and children are held in common to guard against corruption, bribery, and nepotism in government. Elite philosophers should mate with women of high qualities in order to produce the best children for positions of responsibility. How does this correspond to the Vedic version?

Srila Prabhupada: According to Vedic civilization, a man should accept a wife for putra, for sons. Putra-pinda-prayojanam. A putra, or son, should offer pinda so that after death the fatehr will be elevated if he is in an undesireable position. Marriage is for begetting good sons who will deliver one from the fire of hell. Therefore the sraddha ceremony is there because even if the father is in hell, he will be delivered. It is the son who offers the sraddha oblation, and this is his duty. Therefore, one accepts a wife for putra, a good son, not for sex enjoyment. One who utilizes his sex life in a religious way will get a good son who can deliver him. Therefore Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita: dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo ’smi bharatarsabha. “I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles.” (Bg. 7.11) Sex contrary to religious principles is sense gratification that leads us into a hellish condition. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, we should marry and beget good progeny. although my Guru Maharaja was a sannyasi brahmacari, he used to say, “If I could produce really Krsna conscious children, I would have sex a hundred times. But why should I have sex just to produce cats and dogs?” The sastras also say:

 

“One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master, a father, a husband, a mother or a worshipable demigod.” (Bhag. 5.5.18)

 

It is the duty of the father and mother to rescue their children from the cycle of birth and death. If one can do this, he can in turn be rescued by his putra if he happens to fall into a hellish condition.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Plato believed that the perfect stae should be organized in such a way that men can strive for the ideal. He equates poliical activity with moral endeavor, and he says that the ruler of the state must be a wise man (philosopher king), or a group of wise men. In a perfect society, each individual functions to his best capacity according to his natural abilities. This leads to the most harmonious type of society.

Srila Prabhupada: This idea is also found in Bhagavad-gita, in which Krsna says that the ideal society is a society of four varnas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra. In human society, as well as in animal society, every living being is under the influence of the modes of material nature––sattva-guna, rajo-guna, and tamo-guna––that is, goodness, passion, and ignorance. By dividing men according to these qualities, society can be perfect. If a man in the mode of ignorance assumes a philosophers’s post, havoc will result. Nor can we have a philosopher work as an ordinary laborer. There must be some scientific division in order to perfect society. According to the Vedas, the brahmanas, the most intelligent men interested in transcendental knowledge and philsophy, should be given a topmost post, and the ksatriyas, the administrators, should see that there is law and order and that everyone is doing his duty. The next section is the productive class, the vaiçyas, who are engaged in agriculture and cow protection. There are also the sudras, the common laborers, who work for the benefit of the other sections. Of course, now there is industrializaition, and large scale industry means exploitation. Such industry was unknown to Vedic civilization. Then, people lived by agriculture and cow protection. If there are healthy cows and enough milk, everyone can get grains, fruits, vegetables, and other foods. That is sufficient in itself. Unfortunately, modern civilization has taken to animal eating, and this is barbarous. This is not even human.

Ideal society is a society of brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, these divisions are compared to the body: the head, the arms, the belly, and the legs. All parts of the body are meant to keep the body fit.Comparatively, the head is more important than the legs. However, without the help of the legs, the body cannot properly move. therefore, there must be cooperation, and this cooperation is found in the ideal state. Nowadays, rascals, fools, and asses are bing voted in as administrators. If a person can secure a vote in some in some way or other, he is given the post of an adminsitrator, even though he may be rascal number one. So what can be done? For this reason, people cannot be happy.

The ideal state functions under the direction of the brahmana. The brahmans themselves are not personally interested in political affairs or administratin because they have a higher duty. Presently, because the head is missing, the social body is a dead body. The head is very important, and our Krsna consciousness movement is attempting to create some brahmanas who can properly direct society. The administrators will be able to rule v ery nicely under the instructions of the philosophers and theologians__that is, God conscious people. A person who is theistic will never condone the opening of slaughterhouses. Because there are many rascals heading the government, animal slaughter is allowed. When Maharaja Parikisit saw the personification of Kali trying to kill a cow, he immediately drew his sword and said, “Who are Syamasundara dasa: A similar social structure was also observed by Plato. However, he advocated three divisions instead of four. the guardians were men of wisdom who ruled and governed. The warriors were courageous, and they protected the others. The artisans performed their services obediently and were motivated to work by their need to satisfy their appetites. In addition, he saw in man a threefold division of intelligence, courage, and appetite, whch correspond to the modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance possessed by the soul.

Sila Prabhupada: The soul does not possess three qualities. That is a mistake. The soul is by nature pure, but due to his contact with the modes of nature, he is dressed differently. This Krsna consciousness movement aims at removing this material dres. Therefore our first instruction is, “You are not this body.”

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: In the Republic, Plato states that the best form of government is an enlightened monarchy.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we agree. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. “This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way.” (Bg. 4.2) A rajarsi is a saintly king who is an ideal ruler. We offer respect to Maharaja Yudhiøöhira, Maharaja Pariksit, and Lord Ramacandra because they set examples as ideal kings.

Hayagriva dasa: Plato maintained that when a monarchy degenerates, it becomes a tyranny. When an aristocratic rule deteriorates, it becomes an oligarchy, a governmnet ruled by corrupt men. He considered democracy to be one of the worst forms of government because it deteriorates, it degenerates to mob rule.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is now the case. Instead of one saintly king, there are many thousands of so-called kings who are looting the people’s hard-earned money by income tax and other means. In the Vedic system, however, there was a way to keep the monarchy from degernerating into tyranny. The monarch was guided by a counsel of learned men, brahmanas, great saintly persons. Even Maharaja Yudhisthira and Lord Ramacandra were guided by brahmanas. It was the duty of the monaarch to act according to the decisions of the learned scholars, brahmanas, and sadhus, saintly persons. When Vena Maharaja was not ruling properly, the brahmanas came and advised him to act otherwise. When he refused, they cursed him, and he died. The great Prthu Maharaja was his son. A great sage is required to occupy the role of a monarch. Then everything is perfect in government. The present democratic systems are ludicrous because they are composed of rascals who simply bribe one another. When they attain their post, they plunder and take bribes. If the head of the state can understand Bhagavad-gita, his government will be automatically perfect. Formerly, Bhagavad-gita was explained to the monarchs for that reason. Imam rajarsayo viduh (Bg. 4.2).

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Plato’s system was somewhat democratic in that he felt that everyone should be given a chance to occupy the different posts.

Srila Prabhupada: You can also say that we are democratic because we are giving even the lowest chandala a chance to become a brahmana by becoming Krsna conscious. As soon as one becomes Krsna conscious, he can be elevated to the highest position, even though he may be born in a family of chandalas.

 

“O my Lord, a person who is chanting your holy name, although born of a low family like that of a chandala [dog eater], is situated on the highest platform of self-realization. Such a person must have performed all kinds of penances and sacrifices according to Vedic rituals and studied the Vedic literatures many, many times after taking his bath in all the holy places of pilgrimage. Such a person is considered to be the best of the Aryan family” (Bhag. 3.33.7)

 

Also in Bhagavad-gita, it is stated:

 

“O son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiçyas [merchants] and sudras [workers]—can approach the supreme destination.” (Bg. 9.32) Krsna says that everyone can go back home, back to Godhead. Samo ’ham sarva-bhutesu. “I am equal to everyone. Everyone can come to Me.” (Bg. 9.29) There is no hindrance.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Plato believed that the state should train its citizens to become virtuous. According to his system of education, the first three years of life were spent playing and training the body. From age three to six, the children were taught religious stories. From seven to ten, they were taught gumnastics; from then to thirteen, reading and writing; from fourten to sixteen, poetry and music; from sixteen to eitghteen, mathematics; and from eighteen to twenty, military drill. From that time on, those who were scientific and philosophical remained in school until they were thirty-five. If they were warriors, they engaged in military exercises.

Srila Prabhupada: Was this educational program for all men, or were there different types of education for different men?

Syamasundara dasa: No, this applied to all.

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, this is not desirable. If a boy is intelligent and inclined to philosophy and and theology, why should he be made to take military training?

Syamasundara dasa: Well, according to Plato’s system, everyone took two years of military drill.

Srila Prabhupada: But why waste two years? We cannot even waste two days.

Syamasundara dasa: This type of education was designed in order to determine a person’s category. It is not that one belongs to a particular class according to qualifications.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, we also say that, but that tendency or disposition is to be ascertained by the spiritual master, by the teacher who trains the boy. The teacher should be able to see whether a boy is fit for military training, for administration, or for philosophy. It is not that everyone should take the same training. One should be trained fully according to his particular tendency. If a boy is by nature inclined to philosophical study, why should he waste his time in the military? And if he is by nature inclined to military training, why should he waste his time with other studies? Arjuna belonged to a køatriya family, and this family was trained in the military. The Pandavas were never trained as philosophers. Dronacarya was their master and teacher, and although he was a brahmana, he taught them the military science, not brahma-vidya. Brahma-vidya is theology, philosophy. It is not that everyone should be trained in everything; that is a waste of time. If a student is inclined toward production, business, or agriculture, he shold be trained in those fields. If he is philosophical, he should be trained as a philosopher. If he is militaristic, he should be trained as a warrior. and if he is simply dull, he should remain a sudra, a laborer. These four classes are selected by their sumptoms and qualifications. Narada Muni also say that one should be selected according to qualifications. Even if one is born in a brahmana family, he should be considered a sudra if his qualifications are such. And if one is born in a çüdra family, he should be considered a brahmana if his symptoms are brahminical. It is not that everyone should be regarded in the same way. the spiritual master should be expert enough to recognize the tendencies of the students, and the student should immediately be trained in that line. This will bring about perfection.

Syamasundara dasa: According to Plato’s system, this tendency won’t emerge unless one practices everything.

Srila Prabhupada: No, that is wrong because the soul is continuous; therefore the soul retains some tendencies from his previous birth. According to Vedic culture, immediately after a boy’s birth, astological calculations were made. Astrology can help if there is a first-class atrologer who can tell what line a boy is coming from and how he should be trained. Of course, logical and physical symptoms are considered. If a boy does not fulfill the role assigned, he can be transferred to another class. Generally, it is ascertained from birth whether a child has a particular tendency, but this tendency may change accdording to circumstance. Someone may have brahminical training in a previous birth, and the symptoms may be exhibited, but he should not think that because he has taken birth in a brahmana family that he is automatically a brahmana. It is not a questin of birth but of qualification.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Then what would you say is the purpose of the state, of all these social orders, and the state government?

Srila Prabhupada: The ultimate purpose is to make everyone K§øëa conscious. that is the perfection of life. The entire social structure should be molded with this aim in view. Of course, this is not possible for everyone. all students in a university do not receive the Ph.D. degree, but the idea of perfection is to pass the Ph.D. examination. the professors of the university should be maintained, although there are not many high caliber students to pass their classes.. Similarly, an institution like this Krsna Consciousness Society should be maintained to make at least a small percentage of the piopulation Krsna conscious.

Syamasundara dasa: So the goal of government should be to enable everyone to become Krsna conscious?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna consciousness is the highest goal. Everyone should help and take advantage of this. Regardless of our social position, we can come to the temple and worship God. The instructions are for everyone, and prasadam is distributed to everyone; therefore there is no difficulty. Everyone can contribute to this Krsna consciousness movement. The brahmanas can contribute their intelligence, the køatriyas their charity, the vaisyas grains, milk, fruits, and flowers, and the sudras bodily service. by such joint cooperation, everyone attains the same goal––the highest perfection.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli has been called the most influential politicial philosopher of the Renaissance, and his philosophy of politics has influenced rulers down to modern times. He is typical of the Renaissance in that he turned from the subjects of the Church fathers––such as God, heaven, and salvation––to concentrate on man and nature. The Renaissance marked a decline in the Church’s power, and philosophy began a process of secularization. Machiavelli himself admitted thta his most famous work, The Prince, does not apply to a Utopian state composed of good citizens; rather, it is an unscrupulours philosophy that applies to corrupt citizens. The Prince is a guidebood for a tyrant, and it contains the advice he chose to impart to the ruling Medici family. It is a justification for immoral actions. power is the ultimate goal, and in the quest for power, the end justifies the means. Success in attaining power makes one the object of obedience and respect. Failure is the only sin.

Srila Prabhupada: So, this is politics, the ocupation of ksatriyas. In Bhagavad-gita, the qualities of a køatriya are given:

 

“Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the køatriyas.” (Bg. 18.43)

 

Of course, in modern politics, the king or president does not come onto the battlefield to exhibit his courage. He simply appears when there is a battle of words, but when there is an actual battle, he remains in a secluded place and let the citizens fight. And he institutes a draft board to assure that they will. According to the Vedic system, however, when there is a fight, the king or president must be present on the battlefield and should lead the fight himself so that his men will be encouraged. This is called yuddhe capy apalayanam. The leader of a nation should fight with all his ability and be determined either to gain victory in the battle, or lay down his life. Bhagavad-gita itself is a guidebook for ksatriyas and was originally spoken to the sun-god millins of years ago. Sometimes, people try to interpret Bhagavad-gita as a philosophy of nonviolence, but in politics there must be violence, because the king must emergy victorious. It is stated int he Vedas that if the king is victorious, he will be respected. Strength must be there. Apart from this, the chief of state must also be charitable, and formerly all the great kings performed big yajnas, sacrifices.

 

“All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajæa [sacrifice], and yajæa is born of prescribed duties.” (Bg. 3.14)

 

When sufficient sacrifices are performed by the royal head of government, rainfull results. Power in itself is not sufficient. One must be powerful enough to fully satisfy the citizens by supplying them sufficient grans so that men and animals can eat and be satisfied. This is an ability that the politician or prince should have. He should be not only powerful but charitable as well. Taxes exacted from the citizens should be properly utilized in performing sacrifices. Of course, it is not possible to perform yajnas today as previously. Formerly, they used to sacrifice tons of ghee and grain in the fire, but today that is impractical. The best yajna for today is sankirtana-yajna (chanting God's holy names) propagated by the Krsna consciousness movement. The heads of state should encourage this.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli felt that the prince must at least exhibit five baic virtues, whether he has them or not. These are mercy, faith, integrity, humanity, and relgion. He writes: “It is not necessary for a prince to have all the above mentioned qualities, but it is very necessary to seem to have them. I would even be so bold as to say that to possess them and always practice them is dangerous, but to appear to possess them is useful. Thus it is well to seem merciful, faithful, humane, sincere, relgious, and also to be so; but you must have your mind so disposed that, when it is needful to be otherwise, you can change to the opposite qualitites.”

Srila Prabhupada: Well, Machiavelli may think like that, but unless a prince or king possesses all these qualities, he is unworthy. If he is unworthy, he cannot remain a prince because he is situated artificially. Because the kings lacked the proper qualities, monarchy is finished today, and democracy has become prominent. In Indian history, however, there were kings like Maharaja Pariksit, who actually possessed all good qualities. When Maharaja Pariksit went on a tour of his kingdom and saw a black man attempting to kill a cow, the Maharaja immediately drew his sword and said, “Who is this person trying to kill a cow in my kingdom? he must be punished.” A king must exhibit such determination to give protection to all the inhabitants of his kingdom. At the present moment, governments are not offering protection for animals. They are killing cows, although cows are supplying milk from which we can make wonderful preparations. This is Kali-yuga, and the government does not exhibit good sense in any field. Since the government is unworthy of governing, there is chaos throughout the world. According to Vedic civilization, the king is worshipped as God in human form and is therefore called naradeva. If the good qualities are lacking in a king, he canno longer be considered Naradeva, and he cannot rule for very long, because his rule is artificial. Therefore in Kali-yuga, the royal order is finished.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli didn’t say that this is the way political life ought to be. Rather, since this is the way political life is at present, this is the best way a prince can rule.

Srila Prabhupada: Our principles should be the same, whether in the past, present, or future. Krsna delivered Bhagavad-gita millions of years ago to the king of the sun, Vivasvan. Five thousand years ago he repeated these same principles to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kuruksetra. It is not that the principles have changed. Whether one is a prince, president, or whatever, the ruling principles should be maintained. Then the people will benefit. It is said that when Maharaja Yudhisthira ruled, the people suffered neither from intense heat nor intense cold. There was regular rainfall, and people were free rom all anxiety. Such is an ideal kingdom in which the people are happy in all respects.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli thought that the ruler should take the sins of the state upon himself, just as Christ took upon himself the sins of the world.

Srila Prabhupada: But if the ruler himself is sinful, how can he assume the sins of others?

Hayagriva dasa: Well, Machiavelli felt that evil in politics was a necessity. He writes: “A man who wishes to make a profession of goodness in everything must necessarily come to grief among so many who are not good.”

Srila Prabhupada: But if one is not good himself, how can he introduce anything that is good? Presently, in India, there are many people claiming to be big mahatmas, religionists, scholars, and politicians, but they cannot even protect the cows. Bhagavad-gita says:

 

“Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaiçyas.” (Bg. 18.44)

 

It is at least the duty of the state to protect the cow, which is a special animal. It is the king’s duty to protect the welfare of all citizens, including the cows. If the king or president does no more than sit in an exalted position, the people will not be happy. Even in America, the people dragged their president down when they were discontent with him. In any case, the head of state must be ideal and exhibit the ideal princely characteristics.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli suggested that since the people usually desire peace, the prince should promote peace in his public addresses. On the other hand, the army always prefers war, which gives opportunities for promotion, and the prince should also appease the militarists. Although publically promoting peace, the prince can break his promise whenever necessary to start a war abroad, especially when there is trouble at home.

Srila Prabhupada: No one can introduce peace unless he is educated in God consciousness. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita:

 

“The sages, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.” (Bg. 5.29)

 

The king should not think of his kingdom as his property or his father’s property. Rather, knowing himself to be the representative of the Supreme Father, he must understand that the state belongs to the Supreme Father. He is a representative whose duty is to protect the state and the citizens. the proprietor of the state is God Himself. There is not a spot of land throughout the universe that is not owned by the Supreme personality of Godhead; therefore all property should be engaged for the satsifaction of God. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam. Everything must be carried out for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord, and this is ideal activity for all societies.

[ethos]

“O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve, by discharging his duties prescribed [dharma] according to caste divisions and orders of life, is to please the Lord Hari.” (Bhag. 1.2.13)

 

According to the sastras, there are social divisions–– brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, and sudra––and these divisions allow for proper management. It is the king’s duty to divide human society according to the varnasrama-dharma. There should be genuine brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras, brahmacaris, grhasthas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis. No one should cheat but should carry out his duty accordingly. The king must know what is sin so that he can take precautions against it. But if he supports sinful activities––for instance, if he maintains a slaughterhouse––how can he become sinless? The sastras say that the king attains political power by pious activities, but if he does not give security to the citizens, he looses his power automatically.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli certainly believed that the people should be protected, but he also believed in the use of power and might. If there are internal difficulties, they must be put down by force. If this proves impossible, the prince should divert people’s attention by starting a war abroad. he even felt that it was better to go to war than to remain neutral because a neutral nation is hated by the loser and not repected by the winner. Consequently, he praised power and war.

Srila Prabhupada: He praises war because he cannot manage internally. That is most inhumane.

Hayagriva dasa: “Trouble at home, war abroad” is one of his most famous points.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and sometimes the governments create artificial restlessness and poverty. we have seen in 1940, when the Second World War was going on, that the government created an artificial famine in order to get men to fight. People who didn’t work had no alternative but to join the military. The government increased the price of food, and I remember the price of rice jumping from six rupees to ten rupees. the very next day, the price rose to twenty rupees. Then it jumped again to fifty rupees, whereas formerly it was only six. This is all the results of politics. When the government is not pious or strong, this will go on, and the people will be unhappy.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli’s view of man was very cynical. He wrote: “In constituting and legislating for a commonwealth, it must be taken for granted that all men are wicked.”

Srila Prabhupada: This is not philosophy, considering all men wicked.

Hayagriva dasa: Well, he considered that men are so created that they desire all things, although they cannot acquire them. men are never satisfied. As soon as they have one thing, they crave another.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore it is the duty of the government to introduce Krsna consciousness so that the people can know the way of peace and happiness.

Hayagriva dasa: As long as the prince benefitted the people, they would be entirely his.

Srila Prabhupada: But he must know how to benefit them.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli was very fond of speaking of “the common good,” and he set love of country and the common good above the Christian love of God.

Srila Prabhupada: But what is his common good? He is thinking that people must have enough to eat, but it is for the common good of everyone to love God. Love of God is for everyone, and God is one. When we become lovers of God, our lives are perfected.

Hayagriva dasa: But if the people are basically wicked, he argued, a strong prince is necessary to control them.

Srila Prabhupada: Why should the people remain wicked? It is the king’s duty to see that all the citizens become gentlemen. He should not allow them to remain wicked. The educational, social, and religious systems should be so perfect that the people become God conscious. At least a sector of the people, the brahmanas, should be perfect.

Hayagriva dasa: But he felt that if the prince were perfectly virtuous or truthful in all cases, he couldn’t possibly survive in the political world.

Srila Prabhupada: That is why there are social divisions: brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. It is not possible for everyone to be truthful, but at least a section of the people should be ideal so that others can take advantage of their good advice. It is not that everyone is in the same position, not that everyone should join the military. Only those who are interested in fighting should join the military.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli recommended compulsory military service as a primary form of education for everyone.

Srila Prabhupada: Nothing is meant for everyone. There must be divisions. Machiavelli had no idea that brahminical training is absolutely necessary for intelligent men.

Hayagriva dasa: Since youth should especially become used to hardships, he considered war as a form of education.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, any education requires hardships, and to become a brahmaëa or brahmacari requires the greatest hardships. In any case, there must be educational divisions, just as there are divisions in the human body: the head, arms, belly, and legs. Military education is education of the arms, but where is the education for the brain? Unless the head is educated, how will the arms act?

Hayagriva dasa: Michiavelli recommended a democratic republic for a society consisting of virtuous people. In such a state, the ruler must obtain the people’s consent. But he considered such a society to be purely Utopian.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, a completely virtuous society is Utopian in this age. It is not possible. Yet a section of the population can be ideally virtuous, and the remainder may take lessons from them. It is not possible for everyone to become a brahmaë¢, but a few can be trained. The sky may be full of stars, but one moon is all this is necessary. If the populace consists of fools and rascals, how can anything be managed? There must be at least a section that shines like the moon.

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: This cyncial view of mankind was partially based on the Christian doctrine––or at least on the doctrine of Augustine––which held that man is by nature corrupt. Whereas Augustine believed in the saving grace of God, Machiavelli believed in man’s willpower to overcome bad fortune.

Srila Prabhupada: But who adjusts good and bad fortune? If we consider good and bad fortune, we must consider a dispenser, a supreme power or controller, and that supreme power is God. Therefore people should be educated in God consciousness by reading transcendental literatures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli’s attitude toward religion has greatly influenced modern governments. He considered religion to be a department of the state; it should not be separate in the sense that it should not compete.

Srila Prabhupada: In that I agree. It is the government’s duty to give protection to religion, and if that religion is scientific, the state will be sound. America is presently strong in many respects, and now America must become strong in God consciousness. It is very good to write, “In God We Trust,” but we must also know who God is and why we should trust in Him. We are therefore trying to introduce this science of God, Krsna consciousness.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli felt that as long as religion is not detrimental to the state, the state may accept it as valid. but in one sense, religion is subordinate to the state.

Srila Prabhupada: Of course, they are separate, but the state must know what religion is and how to introduce it to the general public. there is no question of blind faith. The government is maintaining many different departments: an engineering department, medical department, military department, and so forth. Similarly, a religious department may be subordinate to the state because all other departments are subordinate, but religion must be based on scientific knowledge. If the state takes advantage of the Vedic literatures, it can introduce a scientific system of religion. Then the people will be knowledgeable and happy.

Hayagriva dasa: For Machiavelli, the only sin is not acting for the common good. First, the ruler must protect the citizens from physical harm. Citizens are happy when they obey the laws, follow customs, and pray to God.

Srila Prabhupada: If the ruler must first of all protect the citizens from physical harm, how can he advocate animal slaughter? Animals are also subjects because theya re born in a country. A citizen is anyone who is born in a state. So how can a ruler discriminate between one type of citizen and another? If he discriminates, he cannot speak of common good. He can only say “man’s good.” According to the common good, animals as well as men are protected.

Hayagriva dasa: Machiavelli placed love of country and the common good above everything else. He rarely uses the word “God” or “Providence,” but prefers the word “fortune.” It is fortune that plays tricks on men and changes friends into enemies.

Srila Prabhupada: If God is fortune, who is misfortune? Since God is the supreme controller, He is both fortune and misfortune. When you act wrongly, punishment comes from God, and when you act properly, the reward come from God.

Hayagriva dasa: Love of country transcends everything religious and moral, so that one may even lose his own soul for his country’s sake. Indeed, Machiavelli wrote: “I love my country more than my soul.”

Srila Prabhupada: But how long will he remain in his country?

Hayagriva dasa: Well, he remained from 1469 to 1527.

Srila Prabhupada: So what is that? Time and the soul are eternal. Such deification of one’s country is not very intelligent.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: But how is it that the soul is not produced by the body? How do we know that it is not a mere by-product?

Srila Prabhupada: At death, all physical parts of the body are present. But why is the man dead? What is missing? His heart may be present, but why is it not beating? All the parts of the body may be present, yet you can see that the body is dead. What is it that is missing?

Syamasundara dasa: Impulses are no longer being sent from the brain to the heart.

Srila Prabhupada: But why has the brain stoppped? The brain’s construction is all there. What is missing? Why not replace what is missing? If you are a mechanic, and the machine stops, you should be able to find the defect and immediately repair it. But no one has been able to do this with the body, no scientist or philosopher. They cannot meet such a challenge.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes is called a utilitarian because he accepts a thing only if it’s pragmatic or useful.

Srila Prabhupada: That is relative. A child is satisfied if you give him five rupees, but if you give his father five rupees, the man will think, “What is the use of this?” So the utility of five rupees is relative. Hobbe’s conceptin of utility is not the same as Krsna’s conception. Arjuna was thinking that he was speaking like a very learned man, but immediately Krsna told him that he was not (Bg. 2.11). All ths is relative. The hog thinks that he is in a comfortable position and is eating very nicely, but he is eating stool and living in garbage. Crows believe one thing, and swans believe another. An imperfect man like Hobbes may believe one thing to be pragmatic, but one who is perfect may consider something totally different to be pragmatic.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes accepted religion only as a practical instrument. He says that it doesn’t have any real value as a science but that it may be used by the sate to pacify the people or to keep them confused.

Srila Prabhupada: That means he does not know what religion is. Of course, some people have made religion into a certain type of faith, but actually religion means one’s inherent characteristic. Religion is to the living entity what sweetness is to sugar. It is an inherent characteristic that cannot be separated. Every living entity is rendering service to someone. Everyone is subordinate to someone else, or to his senses. It is the characteristic of the living entity to be subordinate and to render service. In Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, “Surrender unto Me.” (Bg. 18.66) That is our first business, but we are too busy trying to become Krsna. Therefore we say, “I am God,” or “You are God,” or, “We are all God.” The living entity is not the supreme God, but he is playing that way. When a man is haunted by ghosts, he says many nonsensical things. Similarly, when the living entitiy is under the clutches of the material energy, he speaks in such a way.

Syamasundara dasa: What about this idea of utility? What do you think of something being accepted only as long a it is useful?

Srila Prabhupada: It is our foolishness that we accept something temporarily useful. Our real desire is to have eternal life. We want something that is eternally useful, but in the material world we are always being frustrated. We want to live here permanently, but nature will not allow this. Even if there is no disturbance in the form of war, we will still not be allowed to remain.

Syamasundara dasa: A utilitarian would say that a thing should be used only insofar as it is required for some time. Then something else can be used, and in this way we can adjust things indefinitely.

Srila Prabhupada: But another point is that no one wants anything to change. Why? People want permanence because they are seeking their eternal, spiritual nature.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes might say that although we may be seeking something eternal, we may employ temporary things just as long as they are useful.

Srila Prabhupada: First of all, we must know what our eternal life is; then we can try to use everything favorable to further that end. Krsna is the ultimate goal, and whatever is favorable in helping us toward Him should be accepted. that is utilitarianism. For instance, Arjuna said, “What should I do? Kill or not kill? Krsna wants me to kill. All right, I’ll kill.” This is utilitarianism.

Syamasundara dasa: For Hobbes, the goal is a peaceful society.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not possible. The goal should be the advancement of Krsna consciousness. then peace will follow automatically.

Syamasundara dasa: His utilitarianism means the acceptance of whatever is favorable for the preservation of society.

Srila Prabhupada: In any case society cannot be preserved. so many societies have come and gone. British society. Roman society. Greek society. Only Krsna’s society is eternal. Knowing this is intelligence. Nitya-lila pravista. “Now he has entered the eternal society of Krsna.” This is what we say when our guru passes away. We are accepting Krsna as the Supreme and glorifying Him here on earth. This same process will go on there in the spiritual sky, in Krsna’s abode. However, there it will take plac in a perfect way. Here we are just practicing.

[ethos]

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes contends that in the natural state, man is like all other animals. Might makes right, and the strongest always prevail. Therefore it is necessary that man form a social contract and volunteer to restrict natural liberties fo the sake of self-preservation.

Srila Prabhupada: That is not natural liberty but ghostly liberty. There are many haunted people, and in their unnatural condition they are falsely thinking, “I am God.” The natural condition is to think, “I am God’s servant.” Any condition devoid of Krsna consciousness is unnatural. Krsna is the supreme, and I am His subordinate. My business is to render service unto Him. This is the natural position.

Syamasundara dasa: Yet when men group together in a society to preserve themselves, they make a contract to the effect that they will not kill one another.

Srila Prabhupada: Why not a group of asses? What is their utility? Do you mean to say that because a group of asses congregate that some good will come of it? Those rogues are always making contracts after a big war. After World War I, they made a contract through the League of Nations, and that failed. Then they had a second World War, and they formed the United Nations and made more contracts. Eventually that will all be dissolved again. These contracts and compromises may serve some purposes for the time being, but ultimately they are useless.

Syamasundara dasa: Men in society volunteer, “I will not kill you or steal your property if you will not kill me or steal my property.”

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the thieves’ contract. But, after all, if you remain a thief, what is the improvement? Thieves may steal some valuable things, and afterwards they congregate and say, “Let’s divide this property honestly.” Thieves are all dishonest, although they talk of honesty among themselves. Originally, everyone immigrated to America, and the whole land was stolen from the Indians. Now the thieves have formed a government and will not allow outsiders in without visas and passports and so many things. This is the kind of morality that is going on.

Syamasundara dasa: Hobbes’s social contract was something like the converse of the Golden Rule: “Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.”

Srila Prabhupada: That was also Buddha’s theory. Lord Buddha pointed out that if someone hurts us, we feel pain. Why, therefore, should we hurt others? Of course, third and forth-class men have to be taught in this way. But in Bhagavad-gita, Krsna tells Arjuna, “Kill them!” Does this mean that Krsna’s positioon is reduced? It is a question of the intelligence of the men involved.

Syamasundara dasa: Well Hobbes is trying to determine how society can live peacefully.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, people have tried many times but have always failed. There cannot be any peace in this material world. Krsna says plainly:

 

“From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again.” (Bg. 8.16)

 

Since this is a place of misery, how can we establish peace here? We cannot. The material universe is structured in such a way that peace is not possible. As Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says: samsara-davanala-lidha-loka (Sri Gurv-astaka, 1). This material world is exactly like a blazing forest fire. No one wants to fight, but fighting takes place. How can you check it simply by making a contract? We are thinking that the material world is a nice place to live, but this is like a man thinking that stool is nice because it has been dried in the sun. If the stool is soft, it is not so good. But in either case, it is stool. Padam padam yad vipadah na tesam (Bhag. 10.14.58) In this world, there is danger at every step. Throughout history, people have tried to make contracts for peace, but it is not possible. one may refuse to subnit, but nature will not allow this. If we do not submit to Krsna, nature will punish us so that we will finally be obliged to submit to Him. That is nature’s law. If we voluntarily sumit to Krsna, that is for our benefit, but if we do not, nature’s laws are so stringent that they will always give us trouble, and at the end we will be obliged to agree: vasudevaù sarvam iti. “Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything.” (Bg. 7.19) If, after many births of struggle, we have to come to this point, why waste our time? Why not surrender to Krsna immediately? Otherwise, we will go on suffering according to nature’s law.

 

[ethos]

Hayagriva dasa: Francis Bacon is generally acknowledged as the founding father of modern science in England, and although he did not work in a modern laboratory like today’s scientists, he inspired what has become known as the scientific method. He believed that science could give man a mastery over nature that would improve his life on this earth. For Bacon, science was not simply an intellectual or academic undertaking, but a utilitarian one.

Srila Prabhupada: It is erroneous for Bacon or any other scientist to think that science can control nature. It is not possible to control birth, old age, disease, and death. During our lifetime, we may be able to make some changes and give some facilities, but that is not the ultimate end.