KCBS Radio Interview 1

[ethos]

KCSB Radio Interviews at UCSB

Summer & Fall 1995: Santa Barbara, CA

 

Host: Welcome to Touchstone. This is your host Mahatma das. We have a guest today Hridyananda das Gosvami who is with me in the studio. We thank you for being with us. And we had an interview previously and uh I had alot of questions to ask after you were gone. Um we left uh the topic of ??? actually uh, I wonder if you can expand a little bit on why people should suffer at all and also why would God want us to suffer?

Hridy: Well, uh suffering of course by definition is undesirable sensation or feeling, state of mind, state of body or whatever and uh if we accept that there is a God who is controlling everything, then this undesirable sensation or experience or feeling or whatever indicates that we are doing something undesirable and that whatever we are doing we should stop and do something which produces a desireable or pleasurable experience. Of course, this is not mere hedonism. I mean the philosophy of hedonism is that if it feels good, do it and if it doesn’t feel good don’t do it. Of course hedonism generally applies this formula on a very superficial level. Something which simply gratifies the body or immediately gratifies the selfish mind. But there is a sense of happiness and distress which is profound which involves the soul and which also is inseparably connected to truths about good and bad, about right and wrong. For example a person that takes pleasure in doing good and a person that feels unhappy upon doing evil, upon causing pain or harm to innocent people, that sort of happiness and distress is more significant and not simply a question of selfishness or pleasure-seeking, but it involves a desire on the part of the soul to do what is right, to be just, to be noble, uh to be pure and to do what is edifying and glorious. And ultimately to do what is pleasing to God.

So why do we suffer at all? Because we do stupid things and because we’re responsible for what we do. We are part of God and so therefore although quantitatively in terms of the quantity of our consciousness we are infinitesimal compared to the infinite deity, Krsna or God. In terms of the quality of our existence, we are actually the same as God. We are also spiritual and originally pure consciousness. So as God has free will, we also have free will. Were we not to have free will, we would not even be persons at all. So the responsibility that comes with being a person is that you have to take responsibility for what you do. And so if you do something which is harmful to yourself or others, it will cause pain to you. And if you do something which is beneficial to yourself or others, you’ll feel pleasure. And uh whether or not such a system built into nature by God… uh how would we even know what was right or wrong? So there would be simply chaos in the world and no one could understand what was good and what was bad.

Host: Uh I had a question about that. I was planning to ask it a little later. But maybe I should ask it now. Um what’s… You say there is a right and a wrong and since you mentioned we do stupid things, I would like you to clarify what is to do stupid things and what is right and wrong.

Hridy: Oh you gotta sort of take your pick nowadays. Just read the newspaper. Uh as far as what is right and wrong, of coarse nowadays it’s considered wrong to think there is no right or wrong and it’s considered right to think that there isn’t a right and wrong which is of course hypocritical. Uh to do what is right, you could say in a simple sense to do what is right is to do what is beneficial, to do what is good, which causes and good effect. And to do what is wrong is to do what causes a harmful effect.

Host: But to… that right and wrong for some people is one and for some other people is a different…

Hridy: But ultimately it has to be settled on the basis of the facts. Just like for example someone may think that it’s good to eat beef and someone else may say No, it’s not good to eat beef. And there was such a debate for some time but now the debate is more or less settled that no, it’s not good to eat beef. It’s harmful to your health. Uh just like the cigarettes companies use to try to convince us that there was no problem. Uh if you smoked, smoking didn’t really cause any diseases. But you can’t say it nowadays at least among reasonable people… and get away with it. So just as what is good or bad for the body, ultimately it can be settled on the facts of the matter. So also for those who have knowledge, there are facts about the soul, about the real person who is within the body.

Host: You are really getting ahead of me. I wrote questions in a particular order and uh… Well, you didn’t know about it. But for example…

Hridy: You dropped the idiot cards.

Host: Yes. Certainly the ???-prompt is not working for me today. Um let’s talk about vegetarianism since you mentioned about eating beef. Aren’t we killing plants?

Hridy: Yes. Sometimes, some plants we kill so other plants like apple trees… you don’t kill apple trees to get apples. Uh the genral rule here… Well one genral principle is ??? which in Sanskrit means life is for life. Meaning that there is a food chain in nature as we know and uh in general, not only human beings but animals nourish themselves by taking other organic matter which was formerly attached to a soul, a living being. Now another general principle is that whatever we eat must be offered in sacrifice to the creator. We don’t really have the right… although we think we have so many rights. We don’t really have the right just to take things from nature for the simple fact that nature doesn’t belong to us. Nature belongs to the creator. So our principle is not simply vegetarianism which is after all a material principle, perhaps at best an ethical principle, at times a health principle. But our principle is ultimately spiritual. That there is a supreme proprietor of all that be and that supreme proprietor is God or Krsna and whatever we eat, we must offer to that supreme proprietor. And Krsna tells us in the Bhagavad-gita what foodstuffs he will accept. So if we cannot offer something to God, to the creator in sacrifice, we cannot eat it.

You find this is actually the same principle in the earliest of all Western literature, namely the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. It’s very interesting that uh in these books you find that people simply don’t eat or drink without offering their food or drink to the gods. There’s even one nice scene where uh… Well it’s a little gruesome. But the Trojan hero Hector, think that was his name wasn’t it? Hector… was out all day fighting against the Greeks and doing very well and at the end of the day he came home within the city walls covered with dirt and blood… It’s not a very clean business, fighting a war, hand-to-hand combat all day. And so when he came back in his mother, the queen, saw him and was of course moved by compassion to see her son in this condition and she immediately ordered the attendants offer some drink and then bring it to him.

Host: So what’s the…

Hridy: In other words, my… just to include here. My point was even after spending the whole day in hand-to-hand combat, the mother thought well he has to drink something after it’s offered to the gods. So this is a general understanding. It’s not simply Indian or Vedic or Hindu or anything. It’s just a general spiritual common sense that there is a divine power within the universe and that we cannot simply exploit the earth or take things. But we must take them with the permission and the blessings of the actual creator or proprietor.

Host: And that brings up a…

Hridy: So to ???, to actually answer your question. Certain foods like vegetables, fruits, milk products and so on have been allotted to us as our quota. It’s stated in the Vedas, Isopanisad ???. You should enjoy or nourish yourself with that which has been set aside for you as you quota.

Host: Well what… That brings another question to mind. What is the meaning of sacred? What makes something sacred?

Hridy: That… Something is sacred when it is imbued in some way or to some extent with the spiritual nature. There are… There’s more than one nature. We say the word nature in the singular, but there’s not merely one nature. There’s material nature. There’s also spiritual nature. And they can intersect. And when something which normally we call material is in contact with or is imbued with some aspect of the spiritual nature, then we call it sacred.

Host: Um, you follow the Bhagavad-gita, as… that’s… Uh, I read the Bhagavad-gita and seems to be… there seems to be a difference between good war and bad war. Can you explain this?

Hridy: Good war?

Host: Yes.

Hridy: And bad war? Yeah, sure. Well there’s… In a sense there’s no good war. I mean the most desireable thing is to have a good society where war is not necessary. But unfortunately there is evil in the world in the sense that there are people who cause harm to innocent people. So to defend the rights of innocent people, to prevent others from harming innocent people is good. It’s not good in the sense that it would be better if there were no… if there was no one in the world that wanted to do harm to innocent people. And then there wouldn’t be a need for war. But even worse than defending innocent people is not to defend them. Bad war of course in this sense simply means to take to violence on some type of institutional or social level simply to fulfill one’s own selfish desires.

Host: And another question I had for you was the question of overpopulation. Seems like uh your view on overpopulation is not the regular view. In other words… ??? believe there is any.

Hridy: Well, there’s… Yeah, there are various views. It’s not a monolithic question. I think Los Angeles is overpopulated. I think Manhattan is overpopulated. I don’t think the earth is overpopulated. Uh we discussed this issue actually about a week ago on one of our programs. First… Well if you say the earth is overpopulated, it’s very simple. You just figure out how much land there is that’s arable that you can grow food on, how many people there are, you work out the numbers. It’s just a mathematical question. It’s not opinion. Now we know for a fact that a huge proportion of the arable land on this planet or in America also is used for such things as cattle raising, which is extremely uneconomic. It’s a very uneconomic way to use land. Cattle raising, tobacco, another… Of course, warmer climates, coffee and tea production. Uh in the Northwest United States and parts of Canada, huge amounts of land are… land are used to grow trees to slaughter the trees, cut the trees down so we can you know make the world safe for junk mail. So uh actually… Practically most of the land is not being used just to produce good, wholesome food. And if it were, then the numbers would work out alright. Of course, you also have to distribute it properly. That’s another issue.

Host: So uh… What’s… The reason I… There is a common understanding that uh animal species are related to each other. And uh man is an animal or the best animal. So tell us what’s the difference between man and animals.

Hridy: Um, well on some levels of course we are animals. We also breath and eat food and drink water just like animals do. The difference is that a human being can understand the spiritual nature. Whereas an animal is locked in to the body, the material body. That’s why it’s very unfortunate that the modern human society has largely ignored this great blessing that we have of the intelligence, the ability to understand the spiritual eternal nature. Instead like the lower animals, we are simply absorbed in our bodies. That’s very unfortunate.

Host: Um, so the idea of morality then comes within the human race and my question is, If there is such a thing as – in your view – morality without God?

Hridy: Uh I think it’s a bluff. If you say there’s no God or we don’t know there is a God, I don’t think you can really demonstrate that there’s any compelling moral law. There’s certainly opinions and one opinion may be that there is such a thing as morality or immorality, but I don’t think it has… it’s going to go beyond an opinion because who’s the authority? So to say there’s no God means there’s no absolute authority. If there’s no absolute authority, then everything… You know, it just depends on what you think because there are only relative authorities. Therefore all the conclusions are relative. Relative means you don’t have to accept it.

Host: Seems like you have such an absolutistic position that uh… What do you… If you were in charge of the affairs of the world or even America or just a city, would you allow free press? Do you believe in free press?

Hridy: Yes, but… Yeah. It’s not a political issue. To say absolutists position… I think the difference is we’re open by believing there’s a God. For example people that say are against rape… to give an example. They believe that women shouldn’t be raped. Uh I believe they feel that it’s actually wrong to rape women. I don’t think they feel that it’s just their opinion. And if someone has a different opinion, mainly that it’s ok to rape women, that’s all it is, just different opinions. I think they really believe that it’s wrong. Or people let’s say that are against racism. My experience is that people who are against racism really believe it’s wrong. So if you think something is really wrong or really right, that’s an absolute position because you don’t think it’s just relative, it depends on your opinion, Well you know. No, you think it’s really right and wrong. So uh, generally people that are against absolute positions reserve the right to be absolute for issues, they’re pet issues. You know, things they happen to be interested in. And for other things there is no right and wrong.

Host: This would especially eliminate alot of hypocrisy in the world if the Vedic system was implemented in this age. Now do you think there are any changes? And is there any sense of producing or of bringing back a system so different from an age which is so uh different from ours.

Hridy: Oh, any philosophy or culture which is worth reviving must be full of universals. If there are no universals, then why bother? If there are universals, then you can just apply them according to time and circumstances.

Host: What’s an ideal government?

Hridy: An ideal government? Government that’s not constituted of fools. A government where the leaders actually know the laws of nature. For example imagine the Congress passes a law annulling the law of gravity. I mean what if… Or President Clinton who is so bright. I mean what if these people declared one day that we’ve now repealled the law of gravity, so everyone is free to jump off buildings and mountains because it’s not the law anymore? Well, people would still die by jumping off buildings and mountains. So in the same way the government can say for example, Sure you can kill animals. Sure, you can engage in this kind of sex or that kind of sex. The government can say that and we can scream that we have our rights, unfortunately it’s against the laws of nature and it’s your tough luck. And you can scream all you want, but it’s still against the laws of nature and it’ll still cause trouble in the world.

Host: So in America we have the conservative party and the liberal party. Um could you see… Could you mention some of the pros and cons of either?

Hridy: Well there’s certain… Both parties seem to be full of cons. Uh, well I suppose the liberals are tolerant and uh try to give everybody a chance. But uh I would say to… to put it very simply as I sometimes put it, the liberals tend to be tolerant and immoral and the conservatives tend to be moral and intolerant. And Vedic culture is moral and tolerant.

Host: Do you vote?

Hridy: Yeah, when we feel inspired to.

Host: When was the last time you voted?

Hridy: Uh, can’t remember.

Host: Here today I have an eminent guest. Again, Hridyananda das Gosvami and I wanted to talk to him about sex today. Now I understand that you are celibate. So what do you know about sex?

Hridy: Well, I wasn’t always celibate. I uh, made this decision at a certain point in my life to take a spiritual vow.

Host: And tell us what’s… Who is to decide what do we do with our bodies?

Hridy: We have to decide. But we should make an intelligent decision.

Host: I see. So how about um, why God gave humans pleasure in sex life if He didn’t want us to have it?

Hridy: Well, there’s pleasure, certain so-called pleasure in sex life which one may interpret as a type of inducement to reproduction.

Host: Is sex overrated?

Host: Is it overrated?

Host: Yeah.

Hridy: Well it depends on what league it’s playing in. If you compare sex to chewing bubble gum, people may think it’s a pretty good thing or whatever. But compared to the unlimited pleasure of Krsna or God, it’s not so great. And therefore someone thinks it’s the greatest, then that would definitely be overrating it.

Host: Are you in favor of sex education in schools?

Hridy: Yes. People should be taught the purpose of life and the role of sex within the purpose of life.

Host: So what’s the role of life… uh sex within the purpose of life?

Hridy: Well, first of all the purpose of life is to develop perfect consciousness. And that perfect consciousness or pure consciousness… Perfect means pure. Just like if we say perfect water it means water that is perfectly pure. That pure consciousness is consciousness of oneself as a pure being, a spiritual being, consciousness of others also as pure spiritual beings and ultimately it means consciousness of God. So uh sex of course is an activity which we perform with our physical bodies and uh… We are not the bodies. The body covers our real self, covers our consciousness. We are conscious of the body. We are not the body. We cannot say that for example I am the arm, I am the leg, I am any particular part of the body because we are in fact the person, the permanent self who is conscious of the body. So uh sex in that sense is an extrinsic, not an intrinsic activity of the soul. It’s something performed by the outward or external body. But because we are in the body and we are experiencing the body, therefore we are affected by the desires of the body. So if someone cannot live without engaging in sexual intercourse, then they should at least engage in natural sex.

Host: What is natural sex?

Hridy: Natural sex means you get married and produce a child. That’s natural sex. First of all, our reproductive organs are just that. They are reproductive organs. And therefore if we engage in sex naturally without artificial techniques or devices which we conjure up, the natural result of sex is there is in fact reproduction. And once a child is born it turns out to be psychologically natural for the child to have parents, a mother and a father that don’t hate each other – at one point in their relationship. And so after all is said and done, it turns out that having sex within a committed relationship which we call marriage and then raising a child within that environment turns out to be – when all is said and done – natural.

Now the question may be raised how can people stay together? How can a man and a woman actually make a commitment to each other, especially in this age when it seems very difficult? You know most people take two or three shots at it before they figure something out about marriage and then they… But whatever… Meanwhile there is some… they have children along the way. Maybe the children have to go through so many traumatic experiences. The simple fact is that we have to get back to the most basic definition of who and what we are. If we conceive of ourselves fundamentally as enjoyers of this world, we are here to exploit nature, to exploit our own bodies, to exploit everything we can get our hands on or our other senses on, then We’ll think well what is marriage? Marriage is if it feels good do it. If it doesn’t do good then don’t do marriage. But if you understand yourself ultimately to be a loving servant of God, then marriage like everything else is performed as a devotional act. So if you get married or if you develop a relationship with anyone, whatever kind of relationship it may be in that spirit, in a spiritual consciousness, then when the marriage takes place the people involved make a very serious commitment not only to each other but to God. They make a commitment to help the other person, to work for the benefit of the other person. And that type of serious commitment is not so easy left aside.

If my commitment is simply Well it feels good now so I’ll do it and then next year or next month it doesn’t feel good anymore, so I won’t do it. This is animal life. On one level you may say we’re animals, but on another level we are a special kind of animal because we have brains – theoretically. And we are supposed to use this developed intelligence to understand the absolute truth. Any animal has knowledge of relative truths, where the water hole is, how to fight and how to reproduce and so on. But human beings have the exclusive or unique capacity to pursue knowledge of a an absolute, something which is always true at all times and all places, universals, whatever you want to call it. And ultimately those universals or absolutes or those things which are always true at all times and places culminate in knowledge of a supreme absolute being whom we call God. So sex performed with this consciousness in a culture based on that awareness is natural because it’s natural by the way for human beings to be religious. A human being may not be religious, but that’s artificial. Of course, nowadays most things people do are artificial and that’s one of them. But under normal conditions it is natural for a human being to seek higher knowledge and ultimately to find and some form or another, to find God and then to adjust or coordinate one’s activities with that supreme being. That is natural for a human being under normal conditions.

Host: I uh, well that was a stunning revelation to us. That means basically you propose repression because you may say we have…

Hridy: What is repression?

Host: Well you say we have a higher nature, but not many people can get to that platform.

Hridy: Well repression… I think now what’s happening is that we are repressing our spiritual nature and therefore people are frustrated. I mean after all, let’s remember that we live in a an age which has rejected oppression and succeeded in totally frustrating itself. So theoretically if you don’t repress yourself, you should be very happy and satisfied. But we find as we remove all forms of quote/unquote repression, society becomes more and more frustrated. The simple fact is if you have an exploitative consumer oriented society in which we are constantly being provoked quote/unquote turned on, stimulated in sexual ways by advertising, by… everything. Everyone knows this. You know, radio, television, newspapers, Everything… I mean fashion, music… because capitalists discovered some time ago that people have sex drives and that if you tap into people’s sex drives you can turn them on and once you arouse them you can try to channel that aroused spirit towards the purchase of a product. Therefore, a large part of advertising, of popular culture, tries to exploit our sex drive. However in a society which conceives of the goal of life as something spiritual and people are trained and live in an environment which is not exploitative and crassly appealing to our reproductive urges, people come to a different consciousness and are able in fact to control themselves.

Host: That pretty much says alot about the advertising, um, companies and also basically talks about everyone that is involved in the media. Basically I’d like to expand a little more on this. But we’re gonna…

[ethos]

Side 2

… about advertisement. And is it advertisement either be by the media or fashion industry or even to sell cars or lawnmowers (I’m sure it is some nakedness) to help sell. Now this… You said that it will incite people to become more promiscuous. I’ll ask you, if there was no advertisement, uh that sex drive will be there?

Hridy: Sex drive is there… and other drives are also there. Sex drive is not the only drive. Uh we have sex in overdrive. I think that’s the problem. Uh, there’s also spiritual drive. There’s a drive within the heart to know the highest truth, to know God, to find the supreme love, to satisfy one’s deepest yearnings for peace and so on. These are all drives. And we also get hungry, thirsty and go to the bathroom and sometimes have sex. It’s simply a question of putting things in the proper order. This is actually the whole point of what is probably the most famous philosophical work in Western culture which is Plato’s republic… that things have to be ordered according to higher faculties and lower faculties so that there’s coherence, sanity and ultimately progress for the soul. What do you think about… Do you take sex in overdrive as you call it as uh a disease? This is a diseased condition? What’s the…

Hridy: A diseased condition is when you get things out of balance and ???. For example someone who just eats all day or thinks about eating all day has a problem. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t eat. So we should not go to extremes. Rather we should simply get things in the proper perspective. Just as we don’t hopefully think all day long about eating or even worse eat all day, but we eat as much as we require to keep our body healthy. Similarly, sex is a bodily function which should be performed in an appropriate way, not obsessively.

Host: Um, what do you think about sex… I think I know the answer. But I wanta hear it. I’m sure my audience is pretty eager as well. What do you think about sex which is… Let’s say within marriage. Let’s say outside of marriage. What do you think about sex which is in any way not done for procreation like homosexuality, masturbation, etc., etc.

Hridy: Well, nature offers us an inducement to reproduce. So if you want to sort of run off with the inducement and not take the responsibility, then it’s a type of rip-off. The simple fact is that when you have a child, if you responsibly raise the child it’s alot of work. It’s a very heavy responsibility. And as a type of inducement to assume that responsibility, there’s some sex pleasure. If we want the pleasure but reject the responsibility which is sort of the motto of modern society, uh take the gusto and dump the responsibility. Then basically what we have is what you might… I guess you could call classical decadence.

Host: Now once step further. What do you think about sex within marriage which is not for procreation. It’s um… Let’s say we call it the culmination of a loving relationship, whether it be for procreation or not.

Hridy: Well love I think properly defined means to… It’s a feeling in which you desire and actively seek the well-being of the person you love. So first we should understand who that other person is that we claim to love. If we understand that person to be spiritual and that that spiritual being has a purpose, an agenda which is ultimately liberation of that eternal soul from all material suffering, if we really love that person we will seek to do things with that person or for that person which actually benefit that person in the highest sense. That’s love.

Host: Um, what should we do? What should we do with sex? What’s the conclusion? Ok, we all have sex desire of some kind or other and some people don’t want to admit it. Some are… they’re not uh into like a formal married life, not having children… that we don’t have it. So what should we do with sex in general?

Hridy: Uh, I don’t think we can base our life on sex either to do it or not to do it. I think we first of all have to figure out what our spiritual goals are, what we really are. Uh, we should try to understand the importance of understanding God or Krsna. And within that framework sex will just take it’s natural position.

Host: That’s it?

Hridy: That’s it.

Host: Sounds pretty simple but how do you go about it?

Hridy: Well, we personally are followers of the Bhagavad-gita spoken by Lord Krsna. It’s a very famous book of wisdom and in that book we learn that our real identity is spiritual and not material, that we are something greater than matter of which the body is composed. And that ultimately we have the opportunity in human life to develop pure of perfect consciousness of ourselves, of God or Krsna and to promote… or to be promoted, elevate ourselves to an eternal position of perfect consciousness. And uh if we accept that purpose of life then all things, eating, sleeping, sex, friendship and so on take their natural places and play their natural roles within that great purpose of human life.

Host: I wanna thank my guest again and uh… (jump) (new show?) I was thinking about the modes of nature as those who read the Bhagavad-gita, the modes of nature have a prominent role within the context of the Bhagavad-gita and seems like apparently they affect everyone in the material world. Can you explain something about that?

Hridy: Well, what you’re referring to is uh… The Sanskrit word is guna or quality. It’s interesting because here’s a way that we can objectively evaluate material qualities. For example the highest quality is said to be that of goodness. This quality is symptomized by serenity, knowledge, charity, selflessness, the sense of duty that one performs one’s activities not for any particular selfish reason, but because it’s one’s duty to a higher authority, ultimately God. In contrast with this is the mode of passion. And in this mode a person is very active, but for selfish purposes. One works very hard desiring fame, wealth and power basically… and very much… one very much desires the fruits of one’s result. In other words I do something, but whatever good result comes of my work, I want that for my personal gratification. Finally there is the lowest mode, that of ignorance in which one is lethargic, forever procrastinating, unable to really accomplish anything, intoxicated, sleeping too much. In other words stupid.

Host: I may not want to say it, but sounds like uh alot of people are so… coming out of the fiesta festival that is happening in downtown Santa Barbara.

Hridy: Well these three qualities are there. Now someone may say so what. The so what is if we are seriously interested in understanding ourselves, God, Absolute Truth and so on, then we have to work our way to the mode of goodness. If one is fixed in passion or ignorance, the brain becomes all clogged up and it becomes very hard to understand spiritual reality.

Host: I hear an example of the three modes of nature like going swimming. Someone in the mode of ignorance cannot find his locker and uh forgot the swimming trunks… and the mode of passion doesn’t have enough time so he is just running through the hallway trying to get to the pool on time but you know he’s debating if he should go back. And someone in the mode of goodness is at the end of a springboard but still not going into the water. And apparently beyond these three modes of nature is transcendence. So what’s actually transcendence? What’s transcen… Transcend what? Besides the modes of nature, what are you transcending or what are you attaining or what are you attaining?

Hridy: Well, these three qualities, goodness, passion and ignorance are all material qualities. They are different dispositions of the mind within this world… and even within the body. Because the body may also be peaceful, passionate or ignorant. Uh, but beyond this of course is the spiritual quality which is sometimes called ??? or pure goodness. Material goodness is desireable because it as you said a springboard for spiritual understanding. But even in material goodness, there’s still a trace amount of passion and ignorance. In other words, someone may be basically a good person, but there’s still at least a little bit of passion or ignorance which surfaces from time to time, getting up so to speak on the wrong side of the bed. Or some days people say they shouldn’t have gotten up at all. So anyway, when you come to the spiritual platform, pure goodness, then there’s no material infection and one becomes a completely realized being.

Host: I wanted to talk about this next. What is enlightenment?

Hridy: Enlightenment means the bringing of light.

Host: So the people that work for Edison, they’re actually enlightened?

Hridy: Well they’re enlightening materially. Spiritual enlightenment means to wake up and understand I’m not a physical machine., namely this body. So I shouldn’t waste alot of time looking in the mirror at this machine. But rather I am an eternal spiritual being. I’m part of the supreme spiritual being, God or Krsna. And therefore my real identification is not with this world, but my… I actually should identify myself with the absolute truth.

Host: Um, tell me what are the symptoms of an enlightened being.

Hridy: Enlightened being should be free of selfish desire and selfish activity prompted by selfish desire. By selfish meaning in a very simple sense, taking oneself to be the center, taking oneself to be the goal or ultimate enjoyer of a particular activity. The simple fact is that we are part of something greater than ourselves. Just like the hand is part of the body and therefore always acts in the interest of the body, so the self, the individual self is part of Krsna or the absolute truth, God. So the hand has no power to eat by itself. The hand has to supply the food to the stomach and nourishes itself through the stomach. Similarly, we are part of Krsna or God and therefore we can so to speak, nourish our existence by satisfying the supreme lord of whom we are a part. So in that sense a selfish activity in the ordinary sense that uh taking ourself to be the center is simply a metaphysical mistake because actually we are not the center. We are part of the center of the absolute.

Host: Tell me, people like Albert Schwitzer and Mother Teresa, are they considered enlightened beings because they seem to respond to the kind of qualities you mentioned.

Hridy: Uh Mother Teresa said hello to me in the Calcutta airport this year. Uh well, certainly it’s much better to give your life for the benefit of others as opposed to living for selfish purposes or you know, crass purposes. Ultimately however, we have to benefit people spiritually by helping people to understand their eternal nature. Otherwise we… It’s nice to give them all kinds of material facilities, but that won’t ultimately save them because death comes and there is no program for that. At least material… no material program.

Host: Well who’s… who’s to decide who knows? …because you’re speaking with such authority which is hard to refute perhaps or… So what’s the principle of authority? How do you know that you know? Or how do you know who knows?

Hridy: Well, uh you have to know what your goal is and then you have to see if you’re getting there or not. For example, let’s say I’m trying to get to Isla Vista here in the Santa Barbara area. So I have to know something about it. If I arrive in Phoenix, Arizona and think that’s Isla Vista, that means I didn’t have sufficient information about Isla Vista before I left. So the very notion of searching implies that one has some understanding. If there was no knowledge whatsoever of a particular object or goal or destination, we could hardly search for it. There has to be some clue. So by hearing from those who have some knowledge of God and understanding, within the heart one can understand. Actually God is in the heart. And when we receive eternal wisdom, if we are sincere we can understand that. And once we understand the goal, then we begin to make progress toward the goal and one can measure one’s progress. Just like for example in the Judeo-Christian tradition it’s said that we should love God with all our heart, soul and might. At least that’s the way the translation goes. So now we can measure to see to what extent we are able to love God with all our heart to what extent our heart is still attached to other things. So these are simple processes. If we look at the stated goals of major religious traditions, often they’re very similar. So we can just see what works.

Host: You translate books from Sanskrit. I wonder why don’t you write your own books. Why do you have write other… translate other people’s works?

Hridy: Actually I am working on one of my quote/unquote own books. But that’s also based on the Sanskrit literature. Well, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel. If someone’s already done it in a perfect and beautiful way, then why not just give it to people? The point is not for me to present myself. The point is for me to present the best thing. So if that’s the best thing then I should give that.

Host: I wanted to ask you a concept of universal justice. Is there such a thing?

Hridy: Universal justice?

Host: In other words, justice which is not man-made.

Hridy: Oh! Sure.

Host: Because we can see that maybe…

Hridy: Well for example…

Host: Yeah, go ahead.

Hridy: Uh let’s say the simple injunction that we… that thou shalt not kill. In other words a law against murder which you find in every country I hope. So I would say that uh our understanding, our awareness that we should not kill someone else is not something we concoct or fabricate just because it serves some utilitarian end. I think we actually understand within us that there’s something wrong about it. And that wrongness doesn’t emanate from us, it’s just… It’s wrong in the world even if no one… Imagine a society where no one knows it is wrong. It’s still wrong. So that’s I think what we mean by universal justice of… even if let’s say there’s a community of people. Let’s say they’re murderers. And so they’re a community, they live together. They speak their own language and so on. But among them murder is not wrong. So we would say – I hope – that they are wrong. That murder is a bad thing and there is something evil about it to kill innocent people. And even if in that community they don’t know it, they just don’t know it. But it doesn’t depend upon them or us. It’s just something which is bad.

Host: Please polemic about one topic by which one rabbi wrote a book called why bad things happen to good people. I… It’s similarly not so uncommon that people even with religious inclination and even quite affirmer(?), they think that God cannot be both all-powerful and all-good, otherwise there wouldn’t be suffering in the world. Can you dispel this doubt for us?

Hridy: Well that doubt really arises from materialism. Materialism meaning in this sense taking matter, the body, to be the self. If we understand that matter, the body, is not the self, the soul is the self and that the soul is eternal and has had previous lives, then we can understand that some people… although apparently good, are even actually in this life, have done something bad in the past and that they have to be punished for that. For example it’s very common, we read in the newspapers let’s say that they catch some former war criminal or just someone that committed a crime twenty years ago and for the last twenty years they’ve lived as a very nice citizen in some nice American neighborhood and they’re… everyone thinks Boy this guy is really just you know your average good American. But suddenly the F.B.I. shows up at the door and hauls him away. So you could say why did that bad thing happen to a good person? So there also is a universal F.B.I. and there’s no perfect crime, so bad things don’t really happen undeservedly to good people.

Host: Even so, why would God who is all-powerful want to punish? It is so…

Hridy: God doesn’t want to punish. God wants a particular result. Namely that we become actually good. It’s not that a good mother or father takes pleasure in punishing the child. Rather it’s simply a duty to train the child.

Host: Is there more than one God? Or is one person in charge of everything?

Hridy: There’s… There are many gods with a small g. There’s one God with a capital G.

Host: And that’s… Does he have veto power?

Hridy: Yeah, more than Clinton.

Host: I wanted to ask you about the principle of accepting a spiritual master. And why do we have to accept a spiritual master and why can’t we do it ourselves? Why not just buy a book and follow the guidelines, just like…

Hridy: Just like when you want to be a doctor, right? You just get a book.

Host: Theoretically it’s possible.

Hridy: Yeah, theoretically it’s possible to…

Host: Like you can also go to a music academy or you can learn it by yourself.

Hridy: Theoretically. Uh let’s say you wanted to become a doctor. Theoretically you could just discover everything yourself. But the fact is there are many centuries of patient research and dedication that you can take advantage of. It’s very unlikely that you would just go out… Let’s say without the help of medical books – because that’s also taking help from others – and just discover all the medical principles yourself just walking on the beach or something. So you could say Well that’s possible. But we just don’t do things that way. The real point here is that you have to decide what your goal is. If your goal is to understand God that’s one thing. If your goal is just to do everything yourself, If you’re… if we’re motivated by pride instead of devotion. Then we can’t expect the same result.

Host: Why is devotion so important?

Hridy: Because devotion is what links us to the absolute truth. After all, what is the relationship with God? It’s one of love. Love is expressed by devotion, by devoted service.

Host: So is there anything else worth doing in this world except practicing love and devotion?

Hridy: No. Uh for example take a man that loves his wife very much and his children. He works hard, he has a career, but ultimately he’s working out of love for his family. Or… Go ahead.

Host: But he has to work. In other words he not a… just he loves his family and even if he could afford to, uh doesn’t want to go out, doesn’t wanta be friends, doesn’t want to go places with other people.

Hridy: No, he may do that. But the center is the family. Let’s say that a man who has alot of money doesn’t have to work. Still, he makes arrangements. He takes his children here or there. He takes… He does things for his wife, not only for economic gain, but simply out of love. So of course that’s a crude example because the family is not God. But in the case of God, sure you can go to other places, have other friends. But what are those other places and other friends? That’s also God’s creation. So you can’t really find anything which is not God. Or you can’t find anything which is not part of God. And therefore to love God means to love everything.

Host: Well, why is… um you can’t get away.

Hridy: Yes, and why would we want to get away from the most beautiful thing?

Host: I see. Well why is that there is so much conflict between different religions and spiritual paths?

Hridy: Oh, there’s different conflicts between different corporations, between different political associations, there’s conflicts between different computer companies. I mean it’s just the nature of the world that people are in conflict. So whatever people do they fight about it. The cause is not religion. I mean according to simple logic, if the cause of conflict was religion you could just go to an atheistic country like China or Russia and there wouldn’t be conflict. But of course there is. Of course Russia… I mean the former Soviet Union used to be at least officially atheistic. Stalin was not a priest and how many people did he kill? They say Chairman Mao, his activities cause the deaths of tens of millions of people. Just read the history books.

Host: Well you just take the bad examples. How about the good examples.

Hridy: Well how about the good examples of religion? The point is that human beings tend to fight with each other. So whatever they’re into, they use it as a pretext for fighting. But when people understand religious life properly, they don’t fight with other religious people, they actually are supportive of each other… if they get it right.

Host: Is there a standard definition of religion?

Hridy: For us religion is the law of God… or to practice the law of God. Of course that leaves out processes that don’t recognize God and some people will yell and scream about that. But still that’s our definition.

Host: And who is God and how is God to be known? God is many things. He reveals Himself to particular worshipers or non-worshipers according to their own proclivities. But ultimately we say He’s the supreme person and He’s the reservoir of all beauty, of all pleasure, and He can be known by love.

Host: Do you accept other forms of worship and other philosophies just as valid as yours?

Hridy: Well, just as valid meaning are other worshipers also worshiping God? Yes. If someone is actually trying to worship the supreme god, then we offer that person respect and give them credit. If they claim that they’re trying to do something else, then of course that’s something else. So if someone for example says I don’t believe in God. My religion has nothing to do with God. Then why should we say that’s the same thing we’re doing?

Host: Why is it you have to choose one particular brand? It’s like you go to the ice-cream store and you can’t have the 31 flavors, so you may as well choose one or two. So in religion is the same thing? It will be too overwhelming to get…

Hridy: It’s not a truth… It’s not a question of choosing one or not choosing. The point is to actually be successful, to understand and love God. We can’t get hung-up that you know we should have a guru, we shouldn’t have a guru. We should choose one process. We should have 19,000 processes. The point is to get there. If you’re trying to go somewhere, you want to get there as comfortably and efficiently as possible. So in this case you could say the truth is what works. Our simple claim is that this Krsna Consciousness works. That if one chants Hare Krsna, if one understands the Bhagavad-gita, it works. And that’s enough.

Host: How do you know that you’ve got there?

Hridy: Well, how do you know you’re in Santa Barbara?

Host: Well there are signs.

Hridy: Well of course. So if you have developed love for God and you’re not interested in other things, then you’ve certainly would be aware of that fact.

Host: I wanta thankyou very much. My guest is Hridyananda das Gosvami. Thankyou… (cut off)