KCBS Radio Interview 2

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KCSB Radio Interviews at UCSB

Summer & Fall 1995, Santa Barabara, CA

 

… and thereby more or less turn the students into apes.

Host: So you say that… (jump) university in the United States of America and… give knowledge?

Hridy: Well, I haven’t been to every one of them, but I’m just saying in general that the… certainly outside let’s say religious schools. Obviously there are Christian schools or Jewish schools or other kinds of religious schools. But in terms of the general western curriculum, the general secular curriculum tends to be extremely materialistic. For example, I just saw in a philosophy book this morning that a distinguished fool, uh Carl Popper, Philosopher of Scientists… uh Philosopher of Science – so-called – said that the idea of some type of inherent or inner ideas, things that we just know within ourselves, somehow you might say part of the soul or knowledge that comes from God is absurd. He doesn’t give an argument to show it’s absurd. He just says that the idea that somehow we have some type of universal ideas within us as Plato or Socrates thought or as we also believe that God is in the heart, that that’s absurd. Now why is it absurd? He didn’t say why it was. I guess he thought it was absurd because it wasn’t materialistic.

Host: This is just one philosopher who’ll say we say…

Hridy: No, not just one. He’s uh very prominent and he’s very typical. I gave him as an example.

Host: Let me backtrack a little bit. Do you equate knowledge with religion?

Hridy: Knowledge? Well what do you mean by religion?

Host: Because…

Hridy: If there is a God… If there is a God, then if you don’t know that you can’t really be knowledgable because you don’t know the main thing. It’s just like any field history or psychology or biology, if you don’t know the main principle then whatever else you know is not so important. So if there’s a God, that’s the main thing to know and if you don’t know that, you don’t know very much.

Host: You were saying something about the music. Could you please explain your views?

Hridy: Well, I was saying that uh I think that uh a musical composer, a poet or anyone expressing insights or attempting to express insights to the world, to humanity, would be much more successful, effective, valuable, meaningful, if that person is connected to a higher reality and not simply expressing their own emotions and feelings as in the case of humanism which is basically a trivialization of life.

Host: Let’s ???. What do you think about modern music?

Hridy: Modern or contemporary music?

Host: Yes.

Hridy: Well, uh much of it reflects the anthropocentric tilt of modern life. In other words, things like God and the soul are not certainties, we don’t really know, but what we really do know for sure is that we are hear now, we human beings, and therefore let’s just talk about what we feel and what we think. And uh, that’s a trivialization of life.

Host: How about… How is it different from music in the past?

Hridy: Well, music in the past, some of it was good, some of it was bad. But the extent to which people live in a spiritual universe, the extent to which a society as a society is in some way to the absolute, to God, to the Supreme and uh the extent to which that connection, that insight becomes the foundation, the inspiration for artistic expression, to that extent the artistic expression is far more meaningful, uh much deeper.

Host: We were talking about education and religion and you said that knowledge of God basically supersedes all other knowledge. In other words, if you didn’t know about God, then whatever else you know is not very relevant. Can you expand a little bit on that?

Hridy: Well, here by God we mean the basic principle, that principle which underlies all other principles, that reality which underlies and explains all other realities. So if there is ultimately something… some kind of God, some Supreme being, some Absolute Truth which underlies, explains everything that exists, if someone doesn’t know that they’ve missed the whole point. What do they know? They may say for example that I know we should be kind to other people. That’s nice, but what does that mean? What does it really mean? Unless you understand who people really are, how can you be kind to them? Just like if you don’t know what the body really is, if you don’t know physiology and biology, how can you treat sick people? You may desire to be nice to them, but you just don’t have the information. Similarly, unless you know what the highest truth is, unless you know what we are ultimately part of, where we come from, where we’re going, if you don’t know our real identity, how can you help us? You may think you’re helping us, you may be harming us.

Host: You know that Einstein said that the purpose of science is to learn to understand God. I think that was his most popular theory.

Hridy: No, materialistic science. Not science in general. But materialistic science is an attempt to replace God, to become God. And the only real things are those which you can manipulate and control.

Host: Now why don’t we… If there is a God and God is all good and all knowledgeable, why would we want to replace him? Why would anyone with common sense want to replace Him?

Hridy: Uh egotism can be a very attractive state of mind for low-minded people. First of all, some people think there is no God. They think that they themselves are the greatest. They spend half their life in front of mirrors or trying to promote themselves, trying to promote their reputations. Look at politicians. Their not… Politicians in general don’t dedicate their lives to glorifying God, they’re dedicated to glorifying themselves, they’re promoting themselves. So you have to consider why are we in the material world at all. What are we doing here? From the spiritual point of view, we’re here because we’re trying to promote ourselves. We’re trying to enjoy, we’re trying to exploit nature including our own bodies, therefore you have philosophies like my body belongs to me. Very interesting.

I’d be curious to know on what grounds people claim their bodies belong to them. You’d have to have some general principle of proprietorship and then apply it. So what is the general principle by which we assign things to various proprietors? You know what grounds does one claim this body belongs to me? Now in an ordinary sense you could say of course it’s my body. We know what that means. Like get your hands off my body or my body is sick or this or that or my body is tired. We know what those words mean. That’s just ordinary talk just for quick, easy, unphilosophical reference we say my body/your body. But if we’re talking in a very serious vein about ultimate proprietorship and if we’re speaking about the basis of serious moral claims and things like that, then if you… you can’t just say very casually it’s my body. So we shouldn’t confuse those two levels of speech. They’re very different. So in serious speech in which one is required to give good reasons for what one says and to refer to ultimate principles, on what grounds do we say that it’s my body?

Host: Who would we trace along that… You were saying that politicians promote themselves. Now maybe their promoting themselves… us representatives of a people.

Hridy: Do you believe that? Most people don’t.

Host: I’m just… I just work here.

Hridy: No, but even a sur… surveys show that very few people believe that politicians are just selfless servants of the people. I mean hardly anyone believes that.

Host: How about Ghandi?

Hridy: Ghandi, well he was a politician. He wanted an Indian government. He got it. And now that’s to his efforts, one of the most corrupt governments on the face of the earth is there in south Asia.

Host: Uh it wasn’t like … it was like that when he was…

Hridy: There were obviously problems, but if Ghandi really was spiritual, then why distinguish between this person and that person on the basis of their body? He claimed he was basing his work on the Bhagavad-gita. The first point to the Bhagavad-gita is our real identity is not material but spiritual. The body is simply a covering. The real person’s a soul. That’s the case, then what’s the big deal if someone has an Indian body or a British body if we’re all souls anyway?

Host: So you’re saying that he didn’t hate anyone except for the British.

Hridy: I don’t think he hated the British. I just think he wanted to achieve a particular political effect which in and of itself has not turned out to be in any way spiritual.

Host: So you’re very um… I have to say you’re very accurate as far as I can see pinpointing what the faults are. So now give us the other side. What’s the solution?

Hridy: The solution?

Host: Yea.

Hridy: Well first of all I think we have to proceed in an organized way and decide what we are… what we are, who we are, what this world is, what our duties are, what are rights are and then based on who we are and what we are, we have to decide what’s best for us. After all I think we can agree in very sort of vague but general terms that we should do what is good, we should do what’s best for our own interest and for the interest of others. And if there is ultimately some single underlying principle, some type of God, then very likely it will turn out that what is best for us is best for everyone. After all, on the material level what’s best for me may not be best for you. We may compete for jobs, we may compete for all kinds of material things and the very notion of competition is someone has to win and someone has to loose. But it’s precisely by reference to a higher spiritual principle which is universal that all of us can equally benefit… which is not possible materially. I mean there’s the idea that a rising tide lifts all ships, but we practically see in the material world that someone ends up on top and someone ends up on the bottom. But spiritually everyone can be on top. So that has to be done first. Who are we? What are we? Why are we in this world? What’s the goal of life? What are the natural laws? Never mind all the crazy things that come out of Washington. What is the natural law? What is actually right and wrong? And so if we can understand these things we can make progress. Well according to the Vedic literature, the Bhagawat literature that we study, we are all ultimately conscious beings. Every one of us is individual conscious being and we are part, integral parts, part and parcel of the supreme conscious being. The body which of of course covers all of us… we all have a body is very useful, it’s an important fact at the present time that we have a body that has to be cared for and so on. But the body is still a covering just like the dress we wear… I mean the clothes we wear. We don’t all wear dresses. Just like the clothes we wear. Similarly the body is a type of covering of that eternal conscious being.

Host: What’s the next question he asked?

Hridy: Oh, perhaps something about what’s the purpose of it all. The purpose is to again revive our pure consciousness. At the present time our consciousness is contaminated by false identification of consciousness with matter. Consciousness is not matter. It’s consciousness, it’s spiritual. So when the consciousness becomes conscious of itself again, self-realization, self-consciousness, when we become aware of our identify as conscious beings beyond dead matter, uh then we have real happiness and we also understand our eternal relationship with all other beings and with the Supreme Being. So the purpose of human life is to revive that understanding. Human life is unique on this planet because it uniquely affords us the opportunity to come to this understanding. Whereas, we have no good reason to think that oak trees or cockroaches or even dogs like Lassie can practice spiritual realization in any sense that we can understand.

Host: You mentioned the word consciousness and I’ve read some psychology books and philosophy books and I don’t see much mention of consciousness. You take it for granted. So why don’t you explain what consciousness is and how is it all these intellectuals working full-time – grants or no grants – are… they don’t even address the issue of consciousness.

Hridy: Well, that’s not true. There are many branches of psychology. Some of them are sort of born-again materialists and uh deny the existence of consciousness. But most sane people understand there is consciousness and uh they talk about it. Most intelligent people have enough common sense to understand that we are conscious beings and they talk about it. The question is to understand what is our original consciousness, what is our pure consciousness and then to pursue that state of pure original consciousness which we call Krsna Consciousness. So uh what’s your next question?

Host: The next question is you mention who we are and what’s the purpose, now explain a little bit about why things are done in such a way. Why for example if we are not material beings… In other words, we don’t… our body is simply a covering and the purpose is to uncover it. Is life like just a game for the over-average intelligence so they can finally figure out Hey, wait a second. I’m not having a good time because I’m not the body? Because my experience is that most people even with alot of effort, they can hardly get to any real spiritual realization or importance.

Hridy: Well, that’s important. We have to find the right process. The truth is what works. So we have to find a process by which we can actually come to this consciousness. Uh, it’s not a game. It’s serious and it’s not a question of academic or so-called intellectual qualifications. We find sometimes so-called intellectuals are the biggest asses. That’s not uncommon. And sometimes very common simple people have a very nice insight about what’s important in life. So it’s not… Because this knowledge is not spiritual… uh material. It’s spiritual knowledge. So-called material qualifications are not everything. If one has basic human intelligence and one is sincere, one can understand oneself and God.

Host: Well wouldn’t you say that once that consciousness is revived as much as we say in Spanish to blow and make bottles out of glass. It’s ??? and difficult than that just to maintain a good consciousness by which he can pursue spiritual life.

Hridy: One has to know how to do it. We adopt the process of chanting meditationally the names of God. One can chant any names of God. It’s not sectarian. It’s not fanatical. Whatever name of God an individual feels comfortable with that’s alright. But the general process is we should call out, we should chant and meditate upon the names of God. And if we do so that will give us spiritual strength and we can make spiritual advancement.

Host: You say this process is good for everyone. Is there… Are there any exceptions?

Hridy: No, it’s good for everybody if they do it. If they don’t do it, then it’s not good for them. (jump?)

Host: Um, we’re gonna talk about education. Um since you’re at Harvard and you’re concerned about education. Tell me what would you change what this system does?

Hridy: I think um start teaching people some wisdom. There’s very little wisdom in so-called higher educational system. Basically people learn… oh there’s all the professional careers in which they simply learn how to do something well to make money which people have a right to do. And in the arts and sciences, say history, philosophy and so on, um cultural studies or whatever, the whole approach is very materialistic. Therefore, the ultimate conclusion is known before the game starts. The ground rules for human civilization, history, philosophy and so on are very materialistic and therefore there must be some material outcome. There can’t really be spiritual reasons for things, there must be material reasons. So is it a, b, or c or d? You know which material reason is it? There’s all material motivation or historical causality reduced down to sex or is it economics or you know which material principle is responsible for everything or which combination of material principles? So it’s very predictable and it’s very flat and ultimately empty because of the spiritual vacuum.

Host: Aren’t you a little reductionistic? Aren’t you just simply ??? things a little too much?

Hridy: No, that’s really the way it is. There may be… I’m sure there are individuals within the educational system who have higher values and so on, but the system has certain ground rules just like maybe baseball players that wish that there were different rules in baseball games. But there are certain rules let’s say in the major leagues and so on and those are the rules, even if all the players don’t like the rules. So even though on an individual level certainly there are teachers, scholars, students that have spiritual values or principles. But the rules are extremely materialistic.

Host: Ok, What… If you were in charge, what would be the rules that you would impose on education?

Hridy: Well, first of all I don’t want to be in charge of anything. But still, there has to be some wisdom, some spiritual understanding of God, of the soul. This is not a sectarian idea. There are many traditions in the world that understand that there is an eternal soul within the body, that there’s a God, even a personal God. So without this understanding there is no real understanding. In other words, we’re just exploring Plato’s cave.

Host: Tell me, is education for everyone? In other words, should anyone have a chance to go to college?

Hridy: Everyone should have the chance. But some people shouldn’t even be in high school. I mean unless you are into graffiti and vandalism. The point is that uh those… Let’s say classroom education. A situation where you actually sit down in a chair and listen to someone talking and read books and people write things on blackboards and everything. That kind of classroom situation is really meant for people that want to be in that situation, people that want to read the books, want to study, not simply because they want the money or because there’s a law or whatever. So at a certain point I think there should be vocational training. People should be taught to do something practical to maintain themselves and we shouldn’t entertain any longer the illusion that everyone is a philosopher, that everyone is actually a thinker. That’s simply not true and after a centuries of public education in this country uh the reality hasn’t really changed.

Host: That’s an interesting approach. So what do we do with the 20,000 students at this university?

Hridy: Well I think uh university schools, they’re just instruments of a civilization. Any particular civilization or society has certain goals and they try to persuade or train the young people to fulfill those goals. So because we have a very materialistic civilization, colleges are basically set up to indoctrinate and assimilate the young people into the materialistic society. So as long as society in general is very materialistic, the schools which are after all tools of the society, will also be very materialistic. So we’re not really just talking about what education, we’re talking about society in general.

Host: Who’s qualified to teach?

Hridy: Someone that has… Someone who knows something that’s worth knowing and that is able to communicate it. And also someone who lives according to that which is worth knowing. In other words, hypocrisy is not a good thing. If we’re trying to produce first class human beings, we’re trying to produce virtuous, good people, then you need teachers that are virtuous, that are good. If we’re just animals, dogs, cats, rats and we just want to keep the consumption going on, keep turning the wheels of production because we’re animals, we’re producing animals, consuming animals, then you know, what difference does it make? But if you actually want to produce virtuous human beings, then the character of the teacher becomes an issue.

Host: By virtues you mean saintly? It’s the same thing?

Hridy: Virtue means someone that does not knowingly cause harm to innocent people, someone that rather seeks the good for others and for oneself, someone that has a clear and profound understanding of what is good and what is harmful.

Host: What’s the most important subject matter to be taught and uh why?

Hridy: The most important subject matter is to understand yourself. If you don’t know who you are then everything else is incoherent. So first of all we should understand who we are and what we are, where we’ve come from, where we’re going, why we are born in this world and so on.

Host: Who or what are we?

Hridy: Well I can answer in terms of the Bhagavad-gita which is the basic text that we follow. According to the Bhagavad-gita each one of us has always existed and will always exists. We are fully spiritual beings in spite of whatever kind of body we may have. And this spiritual nature is found in every living being, not only those souls that are presently in human bodies, but those souls in all types of bodies from horses to deer to cockroaches to birds to micros, whatever. Every living thing is an eternal living soul and is part of God. However at the present time, because we have decided to try to enjoy the material world according to our material desires, we have accepted a material body and therefore we are subject to birth, death, old age and disease. If we want to transcend these conditions, then we have to realize again our eternal nature in that we are part of the supreme spiritual nature or the supreme spiritual being, God or Krsna.

Host: That answers also where do we come from. What happens after death?

Hridy: Well, you get what you pay for.

Host: So what do you get?

Hridy: Well if we perform pious or good activities we get a better material situation. If we are just sort of average, then we just get an average material situation and if we are nasty then we get a nasty material situation.

Host: Why is there suffering? If there is a just God that is looking after the well-being of all living entities, why is there suffering?

Hridy: Because what goes around comes around. So we put suffering into the world, it comes back to us.

Host: How about children?

Hridy: Children? You mean eternal souls that have the bodies of children?

Host: Ok.

Hridy: Well, what about them? Don’t forget we’re talking about souls that exists for a very long time. At a particular moment I may have a child’s body. Imagine for example that in this life I perform all kinds of evil acts, cause suffering to people, just commit all kinds of atrocities. Then in my next life I take birth and for the first several years I’m a very cute little darling, a little child and everyone thinks I’m so sweet and nice and then when something bad happens to me, everyone thinks that bad things happen to good people.

Host: What is the purpose of life?

Hridy: The purpose of life is to be perfectly happy, to realize our full existence as lovers of God and lovers of each other on the spiritual platform.

Host: Now the most important question. How do you know all these things are true?

Hridy: How do you know you know you know you know? It’s very simple actually. Uh you know by knowing. That question how do you know is actually a deceptive question. I think we have to rethink that question. Normally, when you use the English word how, you’re requesting information about a process. Like if I say how do you get from the radio station to downtown Santa Barbara? Or how did you get to Santa Barbara? I’m asking someone to tell me the process. So if we say how do you know, if you mean what is the process by which we know, the answer is simple. One has to engage in spiritual life with devotion and according to bona-fide authority. But the question how do you know is often used in a skeptical sense like are you sure you know? Or what gives you the right to say that you know? So uh what gives someone the right to say that they know? Well, if they do know.

Now the question really seems to be how do you know you’re not in illusion? How do you know that someone hasn’t tricked you, some evil power or some illusory power may have bewildered you. Or you may be just convincing yourself, maybe you’re deluding yourself. Maybe you’re just imagining all this. So that question how do you know: How do you know you’re not in illusion? Uh what’s the proper response? Just to assert more strongly than before: No, I really do know. I mean the fact is that there is a God and God is within all of us and if we approach God or Krsna and if we are sincere and want to know and love Krsna or God, then God can reveal Himself to us. This has been going on for a long, long time all over the world and has formed the basis really of human civilization in many parts of the world for millennia. So either we accept that massive numbers of people… Massive numbers of intelligent cultured people throughout the world for thousands and thousands of years have all been deluded or we accept that there is something, some kind of God. If we say that Well, the testimony of human beings doesn’t mean anything, even if billions of people through history have said that there is a God, that there is some kind of experience. This doesn’t prove anything. Well, if human testimony doesn’t prove anything, then what does prove anything because any kind of proof, material, spiritual, whatever, depends on the evaluation of a person. So if human testimony in general means nothing, then there’s nothing left of proof at all. In fact, how will we prove that human testimony has no validity cause that’s another human opinion? So…

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Side 2

So the simple fact is the very notion of proof is based on some kind of proof in the validity of human testimony. We may disagree on who is qualified to give testimony, but we certainly can’t disagree that the basis of the very notion of evidence, demonstration, proving, objectivity is based on the testimony of some person that saw it or heard it or felt it or whatever. So we have this massive testimony about God and I don’t see philosophically how we can just wave a wand and make it all vanish or pretend that that amount and that quality of human testimony means nothing. I don’t believe that is consistent with our basis notions of proof and evidence. So anyway, to be more simple, if you want to know God and you’re sincere, then you can know God. It’s that simple. And that experience of God is really the most basic experience, it’s self-evident which is another philosophical term, self-evident, like the sun is self-evident. What do we use to light up the sun? The sun lights itself up. No other instrument, no other power or light can reveal the sun as it reveals itself. So there is the notion of self-evidence. Some things just show themselves and God is one of those things. God shows himself and uh… so the question is how do we persuade God to reveal Himself to us?

Host: We’re back and Gary called to ask a question directly to Hridyananda das Goswami. Please state the question and the answer.

Hridy: Well Gary asked about the fact that the human population seems to be… not seems to be… has increased alot. I think it’s in the last 80 years or so – which we all know – there’s been a technology revolution and also there seems to be increasing misery in the world, increasing poverty. Some people remember the good old days, whatever. And so if we are all ultimately souls, then how could the number of human beings increase like this, why isn’t there a constant population? Basically, because we’re talking about a system which includes not only human beings but all other species of life and in fact all the planets in the universe. The universe as a whole is taken as a system. And so therefore the fact that at a particular time the population increases among human beings doesn’t really mean that the system as a whole has been flooded which new souls or whatever. For example here we are in campus at certain times, at certain days of the week certain buildings become full, at other times they’re empty. And yet you could say the system, taking the system here to be let’s say Santa Barbara County is basically constant. Some people move in, some people move out. But there’s a certain constantcy. So similarly some souls become liberated and go to the spiritual world. Others may come here and try their chances. But there’s a constantcy in the universe as a system. As far as increasing misery, I would say that there’s an increasing materialism and the harder we try to exploit nature, the more nature makes us suffer. And uh I don’t know if anyone has tried as hard to exploit nature as we have here on the earth in the last 100 years or so.

Host: Seems like you say that we have reached unprecedented levels of materialism. It seems like uh the ??? have outdone us by a long shot.

Hridy: Well, I think we’re competitive. In any case, because – as Gary mentioned – because there’s been a technology revolution, we have the instruments to really do a job on the earth. So the amount of exploitation going on nowadays is remarkable.

Host: Do you think there are places which are more conducive than others for the practice of spiritual life?

Hridy: Well, it depends on your approach. For example, if someone is a preacher they may find it very conducive to be in a place where there are fallen souls, but fallen souls a little curious about spiritual life. Whereas someone who’s not really a preacher, who just wants to live in peace and meditate on God may not want to be in such a place. So I think to say that a place is conducive for spiritual life means it’s conducive for the particular service we are trying to render to God.

Host: Then how do you find Santa Barbara for your work?

Hridy: Oh it’s fine.

Host: So this is point blank. Go ahead.

Hridy: Right. A caller mentioned the fact that he had read or heard that um Ghandi, Mahatma Ghandi was once engaged in a long march and alot of people gave up their jobs or went to some serious inconvenience to go with him. And in the middle of it he decided to quite and decided not to do it. And when asked you know what about the people that came along with you he said Well, I have to obey not human law, but God’s law. So Colin was asking what about situations where human law and God’s law… he used the term grate, grate against each other or are in conflict. And I would say first of all that Ghandi with all due respect, was not really engaged in my opinion in the spiritual program. I don’t think it’s particularly spiritual to have a bunch of corrupt Indian politicians as opposed to a bunch of corrupt British politicians in charge of South Asia. Uh but still Colin raised a good question. What about sometimes there appears to be conflict? I would say that uh the basic laws of God which we should adhere to are not really in conflict with human law or shouldn’t be. They’re certainly not in conflict with human common sense and decency. So that uh for example the basic law in Sanskrit is stated ???, don’t injure any living being. Be kind to everyone. Try to do what is best for everyone. In the application there may be differences of opinion obviously. But I think that one should not exploit a notion of being transcendental or obeying God’s law to simply flaunt human decency or um… I don’t think that’s proper English… to flaunt a disregard for human decency or the welfare of others. So I think that we should try to understand and apply God’s law in a way which also is visibly good for people.

Host: Thankyou very much.

Hridy: Thankyou Colin by the way. (tape jump) (another interview?)

 

Host: You follow the Bhagavad-gita, so why don’t you explain to our audience what is the Bhagavad-gita. What’s the purpose of it?

Hridy: The word Bhagavad-gita means the song of God. The purpose of it is to enlighten us. The song of God, the work is spoken by Krsna who is understood to be God. Lord Krsna appeared in this world approximately 5000 years ago and in the Bhagavad-gita He enlightened his friend and devotee Arjuna who was bewildered, confused, frustrated about life, about what he should do and so on. So uh the first point which Lord Krsna made to Arjuna is that we lament because we take the body to be the self and the body has all kinds of problems. Bodies are imperfect, they’re temporary, they’re subject to all kinds of sufferings, attachments, aversions and so on. But we are eternal souls and if we understand this then we can transcend our material suffering. So this was the first lesson of the Bhagavad-gita.

Host: What are the different… The Bhagavad-gita is divided into 18 chapters. Isn’t chapter 18 more important that the other ones.

Hridy: Oh, they’re all pretty good.

Host: So what would you say… Do you want to more or less make a synopsis for us, what are the different chapters of the Bhagavad-gita?

Hridy: Well I explained the first point how we are not the body but rather eternal soul. That’s in the second chapter of the Bhagavad-gita. In the third chapter Lord Krsna introduces the notion of sacrifice. The idea is that this world belongs to God. This land is my land, this land is your land. Not really. Uh the land actually belongs to the creator. We can say this land is my land or your land if we are serving the will of the creator. As the Christians say Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. So third chapter introduces the notion that whatever we do in this world, we should do in a spirit of devotion. That is we perform a particular task, job or we do some work or some activity and that activity has a fruit, a result, a consequence. That result of the activity should be offered to God. So this is explained in the forth chapter. Lord Krsna begins to explain about the yoga system. He explains more about this notion of sacrifice, He explains about how the knowledge is transmitted through what he calls parampara, a chain of succession from great teachers to students and so on. And ultimately – to make a long story short – the Gita culminates in the culmination, in the revelation that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of the Godhead, the Supreme Lord and that ultimately we should simply surrender to Him, to God and work in this world in a spirit of devotion and that will free us from karma, from birth and death, and we shall be elevated to the spiritual world.

Host: Should everybody aspire for the same goal. Well everyone wants to be healthy. Should some people aspire to be sick just for the sake of variety?

Host: So you’re trying to say the only way to be healthy is to surrender to God spiritually speaking?

Guest: Well, if you consider that that’s what we are, we are part of God, we are eternal servants of God, then to be healthy means to be what you really are and to be that well or to do that well, to do what you were really meant to do. So it’s a question of ultimate identity. That’s what we ultimately are.

Host: Is the Bhagavad-gita the only book that explains these facts?

Hridy: No, of course not. So many great scriptures around the world and so many great traditions give the same basic information.

Host: Well I’m speaking only about the Vedic literature in this case.

Hridy: Uh Vedic or non-vedic, the point is it’s pretty well understood in many countries, many lands of the world that ultimately we are meant to render loving service to the supreme, to God. The advantage of the Bhagavad-gita is that Lord Krsna is speaking directly, personally. God is personally speaking. So that’s somewhat unique and interesting.

Host: What do you attribute beside the fact that God is speaking, what do you attribute to to it’s success because of all the different Vedic literatures, basically the only one which is partially known in the West is the Bhagavad-gita.

Hridy: I don’t know, uh the Mahabharata had a very successful theater run. The production wasn’t very spiritual. But still it got alot of media attention, the Mahabharata in which the Gita appears. The Ramayana is becoming increasingly known. The Upanisads are studied by philosophers. Vedanta has it’s followers. So all these books are gradually becoming known in the West. I mean don’t forget that just a few centuries ago, we were in pretty much the dark ages. They didn’t have airplanes or trains and people of different religions were burned at the stake in Europe. So it’s only historically speaking, recently that there is you might say an openness about other cultures. So in the Vedas… the Vedic knowledge is now gradually becoming known also.

Host: Can you explain something about the five major topics discussed… what they discuss in the Bhagavad-gita?

Hridy: Uh well karma means that we get reactions for our actions. Whatever goes around comes around. Whatever you put out into the world comes back to you. So there’s a discussion of karma of kala which means time, cosmic time, the… how… the schedule for the universe basically and for the Lord’s incarnations. Then besides those two, there’s three basic realities, three basic entities which exists which are God, living beings like ourselves and material nature. This is the basic ontology, the fundamental things, real things that exists.

Host: I found that the Gita declares material nature to be eternal. How is that?

Hridy: Well, the Gita says that the substance itself always exists as the… Many classical Greek philosophers understood like Parmenities and others, uh whatever exists has always existed. But the particular forms are not eternal. For example this studio we’re in right now is not eternal. But the energy, the matter of which this studio is constituted has always existed. Energy is conserved and it’s always been there.

Host: Well I do have a question that uh… that may make alot of people restless. What happens if you do surrender to God? What happens to all your goodies?

Hridy: Your goodies? Well God is the supreme good, the sunum-bonum, so it stands to reason that if we achieve God consciousness or if we develop our love, our relationship… our love for our relationship with God that we’ll get the supreme goodies.

Host: But in order to get that you have to give the earthly goodies…

Hridy: No, I think it’s more a question of using whatever we have, doing whatever we do, for Krsna, for God. That’s the whole point of the Bhagavad-gita which we were discussing. Arjuna was a warrior, a prince. He was engaged in a just fight and Lord Krsna told him that he should do his duty normally, but he should do it in a spirit of devotion offering the fruit to God. So one man’s goodies is another man’s poison. It depends on what you mean. If things are really goodies which of course just means a little good, if things are actually good, then they should benefit us, not simply gratify us at the moment, but they should actually benefit us. They should actually somehow enhance our existence, our consciousness. So if we take a reasonable definition of the good or goodies, then spiritual things are certainly best for us. For example eating. We like to eat but we should eat spiritual food, offering appropriate foods to God and eating… taking the remnants as mercy.

Host: Approximately 15 million people in America have registered weapons. So what do we do with an assault rifle. How do you engage that in God’s service?

Hridy: Well, uh there are laws. There is right and wrong. And weapons should be used to protect innocent people. If there are no innocent people in danger, then they shouldn’t be used at all.

Host: You were explaining some time ago about um, some controversial topic which is that people should be… the rights of people should be defended and you disagreed with the basically the justice system or the penal system now in America. So you say that by um… What happen if we expedite this kind of things and judge people very quickly, quick trials and death penalty and this one, two, three strikes you’re out.

Hridy: Well, my point is very simple. It’s the duty of the government to protect people. An innocent person has the right to live a secure, safe life. And if the government can’t provide that, the government is incompetent. It’s a bogus government, it’s not a proper government. So that’s the simple point. It’s not that we have itchy trigger fingers or we’re trying to uh do anything. It’s simple… It’s a simple fact of life. People that are innocently, properly doing their own business, minding their own business, leading their own lives, have a right to security. That’s a basic right. The government is at the present time committing violence against the people by unleashing upon them all kinds of criminal violence. Because the government is not doing it’s duty properly, it does not protect the people. Therefore that is state violence.

Host: Should we have some regime like uh Saudi Arabia or North Yeomen where people who steal, their hands are cut off and people who…

Hridy: We don’t necessarily have to do things that way. But uh things have to be done. Somehow or other, innocent people have to be protected. For example let’s say you have a house on a mountain top. You know if you jump off the mountain you’re gonna die. So unless you’re suicidal you don’t jump. So people should know that if you bother innocent, if you harass or injure, if you cause significant harm to an innocent person, then basically you’re out of the ballgame. And uh, if that’s clearly established then people just don’t do it just like people don’t jump off mountains or cliffs.

Host: I see. I’ve also noticed that most policeman that I see… I see them giving tickets for speeding to other people instead of protecting citizens when there’s crime or…

Hridy: Well I mean also if there aren’t speeding tickets and people drive recklessly, that also becomes a cause of death. So it’s not that everyone… We should immediately stop all traffic citations. It’s a simple point that somehow or other the government has to figure out a way to protect the people and if they can’t do that they should resign and admit that they’re incompetent, they can’t do their job and not be greedy, selfish, lusty, pseudo-governors, simply anxious for their own prestige and power… as we have of course nowadays.

Host: Uh, has it been any different in the last let’s say 50 years?

Hridy: Well I mean anyone can go to a library and look at the crime statistics. It’s not very difficult. Everyone knows what’s going on.

Host: So things are getting worse.

Hridy: Well, in general I mean you know it goes up and down a little bit the last few years. But in general we live in an age… This age is crime ridden and that’s a simple fact.

Host: …about 700 verses in the Bhagavad-gita. Which one or which ones are the most important verses in the Bhagavad-gita and why?

Hridy: Well, the 18th chapter, verse 66 there is a verse considered to be the conclusion, the final conclusion of Krsna’s teachings. Lord Krsna says that we should give up all… whatever else we think is our duty and simply take full shelter of Him, of God. So to give up other duties doesn’t mean not to do anything else, but rather we should do everything for Him. We should give up any other strategy for success in life. In other words if we’re trying to perform spiritual duties, then that may include economic activities, uh taking care of family, doing… performing a particular occupation or vocation and so on. But the idea is that all these things should be performed in this spirit of Krsna Consciousness. And we should not attempt or think that we have to do things in the other consciousness. Everything should be dovetailed. All of our duties should be dovetailed in this single consciousness.

Host: So can you tell us the verse in the original Sanskrit?

Hridy: Well here it goes. ???

Host: So what’s the important word in… in the verse… essentially a key word?

Hridy: Well, they’re all pretty nice. Krsna simply says that uh ???, to Me alone come for shelter. So this is just sort of your generic God consciousness. As in the Judeo-Christian tradition we have the injunction to love God with all your heart, soul and might. So if you take this literally it comes out to about the same thing.

Host: Uh, how many gods are there?

Hridy: How many do you want?

Host: How many do we need?

Hridy: Well, it depends on whether you want to capitalize the “g” or not. There are many powerful personalities, gods, rulers, deities and so on. But ultimately one Supreme God.

Host: So is the same… the same God is then in every tradition?

Guest: Well if they mean the Supreme God. Some people don’t really meant that.

Host: What do they mean? Explain it.

Hridy: Some people just want to worship a particular spirit that will give them a… some material facility they are seeking. Some people aren’t really concerned with going to the supreme ultimate entity, they just want to satisfy a particular desire that they have.

Host: But what… What do you ??? everything? In other words, ok you want God and you get to meet God. So what do you do next, shake hands, just prostrate yourself, uh what do you do?

Hridy: When you meet God?

Host: Yea.

Hridy: Well, if one comes to the point of meeting God, this means one has purified one’s consciousness, one is self-realized, one is understood one’s eternal nature, one’s relationship with God and yea you might shake hands. At that point of Krsna Consciousness or God consciousness, uh because the relationship with Krsna or with God is developed, one simply, naturally acts in terms of that relationship. Just like, let’s say a child has been away from home for many, many years and finally goes home to see the mother and father, then there’s a relationship that’s already there. And they simply begin speaking, acting, helping each other in terms of that relationship which already exists. So we already have a relationship with Krsna, with God. It simply has to be revived. And when we revive it, then we know what to do.

Host: So what I understand of what you just said is that without knowledge, you can’t surrender to God.

Hridy: Well to whom would you surrender without knowledge? You can’t even get out of bed without knowledge.

Host: No, I’m being a little more… perhaps a little more specific… without knowledge of God, without full or complete knowledge of God. And also that brings another question. How can you know the infinite?

Hridy: Well, regarding your first question. When I was a boy in the 1950’s there was a popular song by a group called the Teddy Bears. Uh the name of the song was to know him is to love him. Anyway, I won’t sing the song now on the air. But uh, that’s the idea. That to know God is to love Him. When you love someone, you love them for what they are. So you have to know what they are. As far as knowing the infinite, we may not know God as well as God knows God, but we can do alot better than we’re doing now.

Host: Good answer. Is the only kind of entities humans? I’m referring to that which cannot understand this knowledge.

Hridy: Well we don’t want to know God or if we prefer to think there is no God, then God will help us to delude ourselves. There is no one though in principle that cannot understand God.

Host: There’s a verse in the Gita that Krsna says from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. Why would he give forgetfulness?

Hridy: Because you want to forget. To respect your free will. God doesn’t force Himself on anyone.

Host: Well if He’s for your own good, why would you want to forget?

Hridy: Why would you want to forget?

Host: Yes.

Hridy: Well, envy probably is a good explanation. I mean why do we want to forget someone that’s better than us or… We don’t want to think someone is better than us. We want to think that we’re the best. So we’ve come to this material world to be the best and therefore we have a natural antipathy or hostility toward the notion that someone else is much better than we are and we should serve that much better person. We prefer to think that we’re the best. Everyone wants to be big number one.

Host: Well let me ask this. There’s this sprinter/runner called Carl Lewis. Now maybe he’s not doing so well now. He’s reaching middle age or late twenties. But he used to be the best in the world and I don’t think probably anyone thought about being better than Carl Lewis and everybody enjoyed the way he run or jumped or whatever and… So why do we want to take the position of God and why could we even think that we are better than God and the situation…

Hridy: It’s one thing to say that I don’t think I can run as fast as Carl Lewis, but then in another way I find some reason to be proud. It’s not that because people can’t run as fast as Carl Lewis they give up all their pride and become humble, saintly people. So everyone in their own way, finds some good or bad reason to be proud. And the fact that some human being has done that well, we hold out the hope that maybe I could do that. I could do that good someday or maybe my child will do that well o… In other words, someone from our group has done that. The human being has done that, someone who’s one of us. In my own way, I’m also great. That’s a little different that understanding or accepting that there’s actually a supreme being who is infinitely greater than ourselves and is not simply on the wide world of sports to entertain us, but that rather we’re suppose to serve Him.

Host: Thankyou very much for coming. That’s a great answer and hopefully you will come back.