KCBS Radio Interview 3

[ethos 0]

KCSB Radio Interviews at UCSB

Summer & Fall 1995, Santa Barbara, CA

 

Host: …and let me ask you, why… why does anyone has to learn anything from anyone else? Why can’t we learn things by ourselves?

Hridy: Is that really practical?

Host: Well, let’s say I wanna… Let me ???

Hridy: Did you learn to operate this studio by yourself?

Host: Uh well, that’s actually a bad question because yea practically speaking… just about. But mostly…

Guest: In other words there were no instructions, there were no signs anywhere, no one wrote anything on the buttons, uh there was no equipment. You just came in and built everything, inventing everything and figured everything out yourself. Right?

Host: Well, you’re right. So why… But we’re talking about something so calculated and scientific as ??? electronics, electrical outlets. Uh spiritual life I don’t think is that precise, that scientifically… basically it’s inspiration from within or…

Hridy: That depends. I mean there are different approaches. For example spiritual life certainly in the ordinary sense would include an appreciation of God’s creation. And we find that the creation is far more advanced technologically than this studio. I mean the people that built this studio probably couldn’t build a universe or even a cockroach actually that actually walks and talks – or whatever cockroaches do to communicate. So it’s clear that there is intelligence behind the universe, the world and so on. And so for… And so in principle there is no reason why we could not establish a very objective and reasonable relationship with that intelligence and upon doing so then the progress of that relationship becomes scientific in the highest sense.

Host: Seems like you’re applying materialistic logic to spiritual understanding.

Hridy: No I would say rather I’m extracting universal principles or reason which generally are applied to matter and applying them to something beyond matter. The principles themselves are not materialistic, it’s just that so-called human reason has been applied for so long to materialistic things that we think that the reason is somehow embedded in the matter or matter is embedded in reason. But they’re separate principles.

Host: Is there… Are there any exceptions in this path that other people who actually don’t have to learn everything from others that already know everything or what they need to know?

Hridy: But who knows anything? If people knew something then why would the world be in the state it’s in?

Host: Oh well. ??? may listen to plenty of good advice, but not necessarily ???.

Hridy: We should be concerned… that is our concerned let’s say if we are concerned with God. If we want to find God or find ourselves or find out the highest truth, we shouldn’t quibble over methodology. If someone is proud and their main concern is to do everything themselves, then they’re not really serious students of the absolute truth, they’re main program is to promote themselves. Even in their own minds they want to promote themselves then. So even Jesus Christ said that this pride was not a good qualification for spiritual advancement.

Host: Is there a spiritual pride?

Hridy: Spiritual pride means to be proud of God or to be proud of the great servants of God.

Host: Well that’s approved, that’s authorized?

Hridy: Well one should not be proud of oneself. One should try to be humble because after all it’s a big world out there and we’re not that big. So if someone isn’t humble, they’re really out of touch with reality.

Host: Is there a counterpart of every quality that human beings have?

Hridy: Counterpart?

Host: Like a spiritual counterpart. This… You said there is a spiritual pride if you are proud of God instead of yourself. So how can you be envious or lusty or greedy in the spiritual sense.

Hridy: Well by counterpart, there has to be fully counter in the sense that it has to be the opposite. For example it’s well known in the Vedic tradition of India that uh Krsna appeared many thousand of years ago and as a young boy He had many beautiful girlfriends in the village of Vrndavana. So this may appear to ordinary eyes as typical lust, typical affair boys and girls. But actually it wasn’t. It was spiritual. So if a quality is really the counterpart… For example the attraction between Krsna and the young girls of His village, then it should be counter also in the quality of it. It shouldn’t be a question of lust or just hormones and so on. But there should be a spiritual principle operating. Otherwise, it’s not really a counterpart, it’s just more of the same..

Host: I see. Ok. (tape jump) Is there a better motivation to be situated in?

Hridy: Basically, there are three modes, goodness, passion and ignorance. When goodness becomes prominent, there’s serenity, knowledge, happiness and prosperity.

Host: There is no happiness in passion or ignorance?

Hridy: No, not really. It’s not that a particular person is exclusively in one or the other. Of course we have mixtures of these qualities within us. In passion there is simply anticipation and lamentation. We get excited and think something good is gonna happen. Just like for example one goes to the university thinking that it will lead to some type of success in life. So the actual process of going to classes, taking notes, taking test, buying books, returning them and so on… worrying about all these things is not really happiness in and of itself. But we think that we’re getting somewhere. When we get to that somewhere we find that actually there’s a new place we have to get to. So in that way in passion, there’s always anticipation, hankering, expectation and then lamentation as we leave things behind we lament for them. For example in school when I was looking forward to a successful career, but then when we get the career, we find it doesn’t really make us happy. Instead we lament, Boy those were the good old days when I was in school. So the essence of passion is either looking forward to something we think will make us happy in the future or lamenting for something we think made us happy in the past. But when we come to the platform of goodness, there’s actual happiness at every moment. You don’t have to go anywhere. You’re not lamenting for anything in the past, you’re not looking forward to something in the future. You’re just happy. It doesn’t mean you don’t do things or don’t make any plans for the future, but you’re just happy right now because you’re a good person.

Host: Is that what you consider to be the goal of life, to be situated in goodness?

Hridy: Well, if one is situated in goodness, then that’s the launch pad so to speak for spiritual enlightenment. A person who has come to the material platform of goodness is a prime candidate for spiritual understanding.

Host: There is… I’m sorry.

Hridy: No, go ahead.

Host: Uh is there a chance for someone situated in mostly… as you said that the modes of nature appear mixed in every person… uh to situated most in the mode of passion of the mode of ignorance to be a candidate for spiritual life?

Hridy: Well, sometimes people who are affected by passion and ignorance become so frustrated that they take to spiritual life precisely because the mode of passion is ultimately frustrating. What to speak of the mode of ignorance. The mode of ignorance characterized by indolence and just plain ignorance; stupidity. Being very irrational, violent or depressed. In other words not even being passionate or active, but just being sort of paralyzed or procrastinating or down, down, down as they say, in the dumps or the dumpster. So these modes of passion and ignorance just don’t make us happy. It’s the goodness that makes us happy. So people become situated in goodness, they can be happy now – here and now – and they can also understand spiritual life and by spiritual progress actually revive their eternal spiritual happiness based on self-realization and love of God.

Host: Now in the mode of passion, um since there is most frustration, when someone takes up spiritual life wouldn’t they be inclined to give it up as soon as they found a little relief?

Hridy: Well relief is sort of a negative concept. If someone’s causing me pain and then they stop causing me pain, then that’s a relief. But right now for example no one’s causing me pain, but that’s not ecstatic. I mean I have to do something. I have to do something in life and become happy. So when pain stops, whatever kind of pain it may be, gives a momentary sensation of relief and happiness, but ultimately we have to have a life. And that life has to be based on knowledge, not just on our false egotism.

Host: I see. So knowledge seems to be the underlying um pursuit behind anyone who will look for spiritual life because um also people in the mode of goodness are suffering in one way or another, otherwise why would they want to transcend?

Hridy: That’s true. The goal is knowledge. Of course some people are looking for a perfect, loving relationship which we can only find with Krsna or God. Some people are looking for relief, some people are looking for knowledge, some people are just curious. So there are different reasons for which people take to spiritual life, but it’s true what you said that even on the platform of material goodness, relatively speaking there’s more happiness, but it’s not perfect. If we want perfect happiness, then of course we have to come to the spiritual platform. There are built-in defects in the material world, built-in obsolescence.

Host: So honesty seems to be the only real qualification in order to pursue spiritual life because anything else can come afterwards.

Hridy: Honesty?

Host: Honesty, like if someone is duplicitous. In other words he’s trying to make a business out of… because it’s convenient for me not to be unhappy, therefore it’s also convenient to cheap or lie or to change things around or do things temporarily with no ulterior purpose except for give myself happiness. So since I can… if there is any selfishness, ??? into any kind of search or whatever the mode they may belong to, then there will eventually fall astray. Is that so?

Hridy: Yea, they already are astray. We are by our constitutional nature meant to serve God, Krsna. Just like the hand is part of the body, the hand naturally serves the body. If the hand isn’t serving the interest of the body, it’s just doing something else by itself, it’s got a problem and that’s not what hands are for. So just as a hand is part of the body, we are part of God, Krsna. And by our nature, by what awe are, the quality of existence that we possess, we are meant to serve God. So if we are pursuing selfish interest we won’t be happy. Just like if the hand tries to eat by itself, it can’t. No matter how powerful your hand is you can’t eat… your hand can’t eat even if it pulverizes the food or whatever. The hand has to put the food in the stomach and then the nutrition goes to the hand. Or we water the root of a tree. You can’t water all the little branches and leaves. You have to water the root of the tree. So God or Krsna is the root of all existence. By pleasing God or Krsna, we will become pleased. And you just can’t avoid that process.

Host: But… Here’s a question. What is the importance of accepting a spiritual master and what are the qualifications to become one? The importance is that someone who knows about Krsna can tell us about Krsna, Krsna of course meaning God. This is very simple fact that in this world whatever we want to know we have to approach someone that knows that. That’s why we have universities and schools. That’s why there are books. That’s why there’s communication. That’s why there are radios. So if we want perfect knowledge and we are imperfect, we have to approach someone that has perfect knowledge. You may say everyone’s imperfect, so why approach someone else. God is not imperfect. God is perfect. And those who surrender to Him can also convey perfect knowledge. We may be imperfect in the sense of our capacity to invent or create or fashion by ourselves a perfect understanding, but we can perfectly convey or transmit knowledge. For example let’s say there was some problem here in this studio. I know nothing about these matters, but if some expert came and said push this button, turn that dial or whatever, then I could do that. Sometimes even airplanes have been guided down to safe landings when uh a very inexperienced person is at the controls. But they simply follow the directions. So that’s the importance of approaching a spiritual master and uh… What was the second part of your question?

Host: What are the qualifications and what’s the importance of…

Hridy: A spiritual master should speak the truth and practice what he preaches… what he or she preaches. So that’s the basic thing to know the truth, speak the truth and practice the truth.

Host: Well I have another question. ??? started saying that uh there… we are all imperfect in one way or another, so how can an imperfect being choose a perfect one… or receive perfect knowledge? How can he being imperfect, decide who’s not imperfect?

Hridy: Well, just like let’s say we want to go to a doctor. We aren’t… Well, most of us aren’t doctors. We certainly have an imperfect understanding of medicine and yet we choose a doctor. So within civilized society if the society is sincere and if there is proper education for the people, then they will come to understand who is an authentic spiritual teacher by seeing the results the teacher has on his followers. Let’s say I follow this spiritual teacher. If as a result of that I’ve reformed my character, I’ve become a good person and I visibly have come to a certain state of God consciousness… And if that happens to alot of other people also, then we’ll come to accept that teacher as genuine. So within human society gradually people come to understand who genuine teachers are by the effects of their teachings and also by seeing to what extent their teachings agree with standard books of wisdom which have withstood the test of time or passed the test of time and aren’t simply someone’s imagination this week.

Host: Well, Homer’s ??? different times still have…

Guest: Not as I would say spiritual guidebooks. Even back during Homer’s time. Plato was kind of upset by the theology of the Iliad and the Odessy. Everyone admitted that Homer knew how to tell a great story. And I don’t think Homer was really trying to get in the last word on theology anyway.

Host: Um, I have two questions. One related to theology. How do you decide what is a bona-fide scripture?

Hridy: Well first of all, you have to want a bona-fide scripture. If you don’t want one, then they’re all the same to you. Just like if you don’t like ice cream, then even if there’s 32,000 flavors, they’re all the same to you. They’re all useless. So first we have to agree if we’re so inclined, that there is value in a genuine scripture which is coming down authentically… the word of God and so on. And if we agree, that would be a good thing to have, then we could look for one.

Host: So at that point, how do you decide which one is the best? Is there better one than others or is there a better one for you?

Hridy: Well, even within scriptures people admit that some instructions are more important than others. For example, laws about how to tether your camel or something like that in an ancient Mideastern book wouldn’t be as important as a direct revelation of the glory of God. So we have to admit that there are more and less important injunctions even within a particular scripture. In fact, all religious traditions do admit this. Therefore, it is possible to derive a type of universal standard. What constitutes important information in a scripture? It should be information which tells us the nature of God, the nature of our own self or identity, what the relationship is between us, what the process is to revive fully our understanding of in relationship with the supreme deity. These things are very significant. So the extent to which a scripture can properly teach us about these things and actually help us to make real tangible spiritual advancement, then it’s a good scripture. We shouldn’t just hoop and howler and get ourselves worked up or affirm that we blindly accept some dogma. Anyone can do that. You know my God can beat up you God. The real point is to see if you personally, in your own life, are transcending material qualities such as lust, greed, envy which afflict all of us and actually are developing love of God, a love for God which takes you beyond affection for temporary things. For example if you get in an airplane, it goes down the runaway and then it turns around and goes back the other way and keeps doing this and you never actually get over the mountains, you better switch airlines.

Host: Let me ask, since you mentioned the test of time and also said that something new or new ideas wouldn’t necessarily work, so there is no more scriptures to be written? In other words, everything that is to be revealed is already written and it’s like… just… you don’t have to do anything, you don’t have to wait any new revelations. Whatever is done is done and that should be sufficient. Is that your idea? In other words, there’s no enlightened beings. There won’t be any enlightened beings who can actually write scripture anymore.

Hridy: Did I say all that?

Host: Well, no. This is what I assume.

Hridy: As material history winds it’s way through time, there’ll always be a need for enlightened beings to teach us to apply eternal wisdom in our particular situation. I’m sure there always will be enlightened beings coming here to this world to help us. At the same time there’s certain basic truths which need not be and cannot be reinvented or altered and we just have to face that fact. You know let’s say scriptures aren’t exactly like you know sports cars, they change every year or whatever. You know this year there’s a new sedan or convertible or whatever. And there’s a difference between the car industry or the fashion industry and God. They’re not exactly the same. Thank God. So for example the fact that we’re eternal, we are eternal spiritual beings, God is the supreme eternal spiritual being, there’s a loving relationship between us that we have to rediscover, that we cannot be happy exploiting matter, including our own bodies. We have to satisfy the needs of our bodies, but we cannot be happy by exploiting the bodies. These are simply eternal facts. That’s just the way it is.

Host: How is a disciple to be and what is his or her qualifications to be a bona-fide disciple?

Hridy: Well, a disciple should be disciplined. If we really want to make progress and we accept a spiritual teacher, then we should serve the teacher nicely. By the way bona-fide spiritual teacher certainly is not exploiting us. But rather a bona-fide teacher is simply engaging us in the Lord’s service. A bona-fide guru or spiritual master – teacher – never thinks that uh this is nice I got some disciples. They’ll work hard and make money for me and take care of my bodily comfort and I can enjoy life. And bona-fide teacher should always be thinking that I myself am a menial servant of God and this disciple of mine is also a servant of God and I am simply helping this person to serve God. So if one finds such a bona-fide spiritual master, guru teacher and so on, one should serve that person humbly, if the person is actually worthy of taking the position of a guru, a teacher and uh this will please God.

Host: So what are the specific qualities of a disciple besides being disciplined and loyal, faithful?

Hridy: Well a disciple has to want to achieve spiritual perfection. If you enroll in a university but your not really interested in getting a degree, you probably won’t do that well. Or if you’re not interested in learning anything, you just like to hang out at universities. So in the same way, we should accept a spiritual teacher, not because – as my teacher used to say – because it’s a fashion or other people are doing it, so I want one too. It’s like everyone’s got a new kind of tennis shoe, so I got to get that too. I mean it’s not just like trendy tennis shoes. You should accept a teacher if you really want perfect knowledge, if you really want to revive your own spiritual nature and go back to home, back to the spiritual world.

Host: What about variety? We see that there’s so much variety in the material world let’s call it. Um when it comes to spiritual matters, it seems be like everything merges into a non-variegated blob. But you know everybody come… had from whatever you want you can just get there. So what is the point of having so much variety, uh ultimately the truth is one?

Hridy: Well, ultimately there is variety. There is eternal variety. After all, if the world was all painted one color it’d be pretty drab wouldn’t it, not matter what that color was? Actually it wouldn’t matter what the color was because it would start to look the same anyway. So similarly, I mean who would want the spiritual world, the kingdom of God, to be all painted one color… or to have no variety, no relationships, nothing? It’d be a pretty miserable place to be. I would almost rather be in Brooklyn. So um there is variety, there is eternal variety, colors and shapes and relationships, individual people. In fact this world that we’re in now is merely a reflection, like a perverted reflection of the perfect world, the spiritual world where there is perfect beautiful variety. So these ideas that everything is one are nice. In fact everything is one, but there’s still variety. It’s just like a group of people who are very united, a family, a team, lovers, whatever. When people are very united there is a oneness. At the same time there is individuality. So the oneness of all things in god does not preclude the variety which makes everything worthwhile and beautiful.

Host: What is the ultimate authority? Who’s… Who or what is the ultimate authority in um spiritual matters?

Hridy: Huh?

Host: Like let’s say there are so many traditions, there are so many patriarchs or spiritual leaders and do you think there is such a thing as one united, universal teachings and which one particular person ??? path is actually better than others or supersedes all other philosophy?

Hridy: I think it’d be fanatical to say that uh that one path is right and everyone else is a devil or whatever. That’s pretty fanatical. And it’s also fanatical to say that everything is the same. Uh we have to actually examine things and see what their quality is, wee what they lead to, see what the results are, how good they are and make an intelligent decision about them. So if we agree for example that in spiritual life one should overcome, transcend lower qualities like the urge to kill people or rape them or to exploit them even in milder ways. If we agree that a spiritual person should transcend the tendency to exploit others or even exploit himself or herself… And rather a spiritual person should love all creatures and try to help them in the best way. And the extent to which a particular process brings it’s practitioners, it’s followers to that consciousness, to that extent it’s working. The truth is what works. So we have to see what’s going on. If the purpose of a so-called religion is just to take you to some science fiction planet where you can meet – I don’t know – some cosmic person that occasionally visits the earth in flying saucers and help you to do mind travel or something like that, then… It may be nice if that’s what you’re into. It’s just not very spiritual. So we first of all have to separate what is… what are those processes which explicitly aim at selfless love of God, spiritual life and which ones just want to entertain you on a cosmic level. And then among the paths which are actually spiritual, we have to see which of those work or the extent to which they work.

Host: Uh yesterday there was a demonstration here on campus about… in favor of affirmative action. So since you always have some radical views on everything, I imagine you have… your opinion on this about affirmative action. So what do you think about that?

Hridy: Well, there’s two points. One point is that a society should see that everyone is engaged, everyone has opportunity, that people have the best possible chance to succeed in life, both materially and spiritually. At the same time, it should be done in such a way that other people aren’t punished. If the basic principle behind affirmative action is that people should be given a chance to do the best they can, then that principle should be applied to everyone. We need a system that allows everyone to do the best they can.

Host: So you are in favor of merit. I imagine that’s how you would divide society…

Hridy: Well I’m in favor of justice. Of course people will say that there were past injustices. Uh so therefore, two wrongs don’t make a right. If there was past injustice, that should be corrected without creating new injustice. Otherwise, we’ll have to have a demonstration ten years from now for the new victims of injustice. So the way to help former victims is not to create new victims. That’s the point.

Host: What is justice?

Hridy: Justice means that everyone should be given what they deserve.

Host: Uh, who will judge that?

Hridy: Well, if a society can’t judge those things, then how can it even function as a just society. It’s to be understood or hoped that within a society there are leaders, there are people that can figure these things out. Otherwise, who else can do it except people? Of course we have to be guided and there should be some standard principles on which we can base ourselves. Therefore, there’s a need also for spiritual understanding for wisdom. That’s why it’s very dangerous to have universities that are not interested in wisdom, are interested in economic development, engineering, technology, jobs, money and so on and very uninterested in wisdom. The result is universities don’t actually supply intelligent people to the society, just clever people, shrewd people, skillful people, but not wise people.

Host: There’s alot they um… There’s alot actually meant for just a few departments like um philosophy or um religion…

Host: The philosophy departments are the last departments that supply wisdom nowadays. Philosophy has sort of degenerated into cribbling over points of logic and so on and so forth. Philosophy as it once was, was an attempt to understand the highest truth utilizing all the cognitive resources of a human being. So how do we actually understand things? For example people claim to have experience of God. So how do we actually understand God? How do we understand the soul? It’s not just by quibbling over detailed points of logic that may not even be relevant to understanding the important things of life. So because philosophy has become very materialistic, it has practically withdrawn even from the competition to find the highest truth. I remember I took one philosophy course at U.C.L.A.. It was in moral philosophy. And the professor announced the first day of class before we’d even begun that we were going to examine the following questions in his class. We will not find the answers, but we will hopefully refine the questions. Now imagine a… the science… not a science, but a discipline so spiritually bankrupt that a professor can successfully and predictably announce before the class even begins that we will not find any answers. So philosophy is definitely doing something wrong.

[ethos 0]

Host: Seems like that professor didn’t commit a sin except the one of being honest with his students.

Hridy: No, he had the virtue of honesty.

Host: Yes…

Hridy: But why call it philosophy? Philosophy means love of wisdom, not simply love of nit-picking.

Host: Ok. What is wisdom?

Hridy: Wisdom means you have to understand the important things of life. According to the Vedic understanding, there are three basic entities which we have to understand, which are the soul, ourselves, individual souls, individual people, God, the supreme soul, the supreme conscious being and matter. You know, what is matter, what is the material world? What is earth and water and all that stuff? These are the three basic realities that confront us. And if we can understand these things, get them right, then we are wise. And if we don’t understand these things, then we’re not wise no matter how many degrees we have.

Host: You…You’re from Harvard. So do you say that the same thing is going on at Harvard that’s going on at every low college campus.

Hridy: Everyone should know that. It goes on in spades. After all a university gets a high rating nowadays by being materialistic, by being very good at materialism. Wisdom, if they attempted to be a wise institution, they would probably loose their rating.

Host: ??? philosophy was a sport I’m sure, they would rate a little better. What they do now? (jump?) Um, seems like everytime you speak to us you’re quoting someone else and you’re quoting the Vedic literature, you’re quoting India sages. Are you afraid of giving your own opinion?

Hridy: Actually, I haven’t quoted very much and uh am I afraid of giving my own opinion? I think everyone should be afraid of being a fool. I think everyone should be afraid of stupidity and uh misunderstanding life. That I think is actually something to be feared. So we should speak about things we know and we shouldn’t uselessly waste our time speculating about things far beyond our ability to understand. For example let’s say I want to go from Santa Barbara to London. Now what if I take a plane? And you say to me are you afraid of trying to run and swim to London? Yes, I think I am afraid of trying to run and swim to London from Santa Barbara. So what you may call courage may simply be stupidity. WE should take help in areas where we need help and not be falsely proud so that we deny the help that we actually need to be successful. In that way, if we want to understand God and the soul, we should take help from God, from great souls and not be falsely proud or embarrassed to be humble.

Host: We’ve talked about this before. I would like you to comment, perhaps expand it a little bit. Uh about pride and about humility. I would like you to give your own definition and also the process by which to get rid of one and entertain the other.

Hridy: Well, pride or one may say false pride, the kind that comes before a fall is taking credit for something that you didn’t do. Or taking too much credit for something. Whatever we do in the physical world, we do with our bodies and we didn’t make our bodies, nor do we maintain them really, nor do we have ultimate control over them. A higher power makes the body, keeps the body moving, provides the life in the body. Similarly our brains. No one built their own brain. There’s no build your own brain kits at Walmart. So these brains are created by higher authority, by the supreme, by God, however you want to call it and therefore we should not be so proud of the things that are accomplished by our bodies and brains. For example one may have an attractive body or a shapely body or whatever. But why be proud of this? We didn’t make it. Why not give the credit to the artist? Humility simply means to recognize our real position, that we’re very tiny within… What to speak within the universe? We’re certainly tine within the universe. Imagine what our position is within the entire kingdom of God which goes far beyond this universe. Our position is so tiny, so insignificant. So if we simply open our eyes, stop being egocentric and see what the real situation is, we’ll automatically become humble and that humility will lead us to wisdom.

Host: How about this um courses, like unlimited courses offered in self-esteem? What do you think of that?

Hridy: Well, uh I think it’s more important to be good that simply to think you’re good. People should try to be good persons and if we are actually good, we’ll fell good about ourselves. Nowadays, no one cares… Uh not no one, but uh there’s some emphasis given not on being good, but simply on feeling good. So I think it’s more important… Just like for example health. You have to actually be healthy, not just feel or think you’re healthy. I sure you can take some kind of designer drugs that will make you feel good even as you’re dying a quick death. So the point is not to feel healthy, the point is to be healthy. If you are healthy I’m sure you’ll also feel healthy. If you are good I’m sure you’ll also feel good.

Host: What is to be good?

Hridy: To be good means to perform activities, to think thoughts, to speak words, which are beneficial to oneself and others.

Host: What is beneficial?

Hridy: Beneficial means it leads to real happiness, to permanent life, to knowledge, to understanding. I say those three things: something which leads us to truth, true knowledge, true happiness and true life. For example you may know alot about the history of Galina, California. But a very short time ago there was no such thing. And similarly in the near future – near in terms of cosmic time – there’ll be no such bird. So the point is that it’s not a permanent reality. You may know about it, but your knowledge of the history of Galina does not lead you to any permanent or eternal knowledge. Similarly, let’s say for example I try to get happy by taking crack cocaine. Now it may give me a momentary sensation which I somehow think is happiness. But the long run effect – or even the short run effect actually in this case – will be basically destroying my life. So in that way, things which lead to permanent happiness, true knowledge and permanent existence, those things are beneficial. And one should act, think and speak in a way that leads to this good state of affairs for oneself and for others.

Host: Do you see anyone doing that?

Hridy: Yes, those who are spiritually minded. It’s not a sectarian thing. It’s not just one… this religion or that religion. Basically uh real happiness, knowledge and existence uh centers around the soul. So one has to first understand there is an eternal soul there is God, there is a relationship between them. And one has to begin to reconstruct one’s life or develop a culture, a career based on this reality of oneself and of God. And around the world thee are many people who are trying to do this in their own way. They may be more or less successful, but the extent to which any of them are sincere there’s certainly benefit.

Host: So are there any of these people affiliated with any of the universities or political parties?

Hridy: Well, certainly spiritually minded people may enroll in universities and may even teach at universities and for whatever reasons may sometimes get involved in politics, although as we all know, many very crass, materialistic things, maneuvering are done in the name of religion in the political realm. Just like Prabhupada once gave the example or our spiritual master once gave the example that uh in World War 2 when many of the German soldiers were off in foreign lands trying to carry out Hitler’s mad schemes, the soldiers uh their wives their sisters, their mothers, their daughters and so on would go to the church and pray… and of course their sons and brothers or whatever. Anyway so they prayed that their brother, their father, their son or husband or whatever would come back. So many of them didn’t come back. And then many of these men and women who had prayed became atheists. As we know, atheism is quite a popular thing in… especially in North Europe. So Prabhupada’s point was that Why didn’t they consult with God before they started the war? In other words, we can’t just do whatever we want and then pray to God to back us up. Hey God cover me. I’m going out to do this. One should first find out what God wants to be done or not done and then do that or refrain from that. And then one can pray to God for protection, for help because after all, one is carrying out God’s will.

Host: What’s the best way to pray?

Hridy: One should pray to be engaged in the service of the Lord. One should not pray for selfish things. God knows you need bread. You don’t have to tell him. So we should trust God. We should know that He’s within us, He’s within our heart, He’s with everyone, He pervades everything, every atom. We should ask for service, Please let me serve you. This will please God. As far as the rest, our health, wealth and all that, uh God knows about it. He’ll take care of it. He’s already taken care of… the animals don’t pray and they eat, they get their food. So it’s not that we have to pray to eat. God knows about these things, He… I’m sure He has a Ph.D. in economics or whatever. So we should rather pray for love of God, pray for service.

Host: God knows everything. Doesn’t He know that we need service?

Hridy: Well, but we may not want to serve. In fact because we are not so inclined to serve God, therefore we got a free all-expense paid vacation in the material world. So now in the act of again praying to God for service, we are acknowledging and confessing or revealing to God – we can also reveal things to God – that uh we want to rectify things. That you know, we want to go back to our real constitutional position, not as wanta be deities of the material world, but as loving servants of God.

Host: My guest today, Hridyananda das Goswami uh…

 

Side 2

…between… You are going to Boston now. So besides the weather, what’s the difference between the consciousness of the people in Boston and in Santa Barbara?

Hridy: Well, it’s a big city. This is not.

Host: So what’s the advice you have for people in Santa Barbara? Do you notice that… In Santa Barbara it seems like people are mostly oriented towards spiritual life, whether…

Hridy: Really?

Host: Well, that’s my experience.

Hridy: Oriented. They’re favorably disposed but orientation means one is facing toward something or looking toward something, moving toward something. So to be spiritually oriented there should be progress, there should be a tangible focus on spiritual values. Not merely on material goodness or piety, but on something which is actually not material. After all, although in colloquial English we say materialistic in reference… We use the word materialistic to describe something which is crassly materialistic, qualities like greed or excessive greed, excessive lust. In other words we accept the basic principle Yes, greed and lust are good, but if it goes too far it’s materialistic. But actually, the desire to exploit this world at any level or degree is material. So spiritual orientation means to go beyond all that entirely and to look towards something which is purely spiritual.

Host: How do you measure spiritual advancement?

Hridy: Well, how do you measure bodily health? Take the temperature, you feel the pulse. So we have to know what a spiritually pure being or consciousness is and then you just see how far you’ve gone towards that. And then we have to take or consider what… if you wanna use the term pure lust or pure greed is and see how far we’ve gone to that side. So everyone that’s interested has to take stock of their own condition.

Host: Who can measure because… An example of medicine is that a doctor can give a test, but any lab technician can read it. Um if ordinary people…

Hridy: Anyone can… Anyone can see uh for example this person is self-controlled, this person is not self-controlled. This person is very greedy, this person is relatively self-satisfied. Everyone observes these things. Certainly one can observe these things in oneself. Well without taking the example of oneself, because that depends on sincerity to… Uh how about faking it? Like we can see…

Hridy: Uh all the time? You’re gonna fake it your whole life?

Host: That’s what politics is about isn’t it?

Hridy: No. Politicians… Politicians have such a bad reputation because they can’t fake it. Everyone sees right through it. So someone can fake something their entire life, then in what sense are they faking it?

Host: I see. So what is the behavior of someone who is actually successful in spiritual life?

Hridy: Uh a successfully spiritual person should be in love and love of God and love of Krsna and love with every soul, seeing every soul as part of God. Just like in a healthy marriage there should be love. Otherwise, people can’t stay together. So we can’t stay with Krsna or stay with God unless there’s love.

Host: And uh, what are the symptoms of love?

Hridy: Well, I don’t know. You write the person’s name on your notebook. Symptoms are that uh you’re attached to someone, you’re attracted to that person, you always think about and talk about that person. You seek what is best for that person. After all, there’s also the stalker mentality. We can be attracted to someone, but with a desire to exploit that person. So love means not mere attraction which may include exploitative consciousness, but attraction with a sincere desire to do what is best for that beloved person.

Host: Well in the case of God being a omnipresent, uh one would be incline toward improvement just because he’s being controlled or looked or observed at all times. Therefore, he can’t hide. Therefore you wanna be good because…

Hridy: I didn’t follow that question.

Host: Well God has a perfect security system. He can watch you, He can watch your thoughts, He can watch your actions. Uh therefore, it may be in your own interests. But he can’t even deviate because you know you will be caught on camera.

Hridy: Yea, I admit nowadays a system which you cannot cheat is not very attractive.

Host: (laughter) That’s not what I implied with the question. I’m saying that maybe some people have the tendency to do what is right and because of the guilt. Otherwise…

Hridy: Well should we… for example not have qualms about let’s say raping or murdering other people? I mean after all, let’s say someone is about to commit a rape and then they fell guilty about it and don’t do it. Are we gonna preach to that person that that person shouldn’t feel guilty? What about when guilt restrains someone from a malicious or an evil act? Are we against that guilt? Do we just wanna take off… you know, pull out the stops and take off the brakes and let the car go over the cliff? I mean what is it you’re seeking?

Host: So there is…

Hridy: Some things are actually wrong and if you feel in yourself a tendency to do something which is really harmful or evil and you feel guilty about that tendency, that guilt is a sign of nobility, of piety, of goodness. And someone who lacks that feeling of guilt is a monster.

Host: I see. Well I guess we’re not used to someone exposing guilt as a good thing. Well it depends. If you feel guilty about let’s say uh chewing on an apple, then maybe you have to rethink your values. Of course you should offer the apple in sacrifice to God, but… there’s rational guilt and irrational guilt. If you’re feeling guilt unreasonably, irrationally, then you’ve got a problem. If you’re not feeling guilty reasonably you’ve got a problem. There are situations in which if you don’t feel guilt you’ve got a problem.

Host: There’s a new concept to us. What about uh people who are born without guilt, like they don’t feel guilt about anything, like um Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dohmer? They don’t seem to fell any guilt. Or the Mendez brothers.

Hridy: Well there… You’ve got uh… I don’t know about the Mendez brothers. But I mean… There are some pretty monstrous people around. Of course, there’s also a soul inside of them, but it’s covered. So due to laws of karma, by our previous activities or former life, cultivation of a particular consciousness, we’re born with alot of baggage in this life. People aren’t just born blank slates as society used to dream… that people are born blank slates. They’re not blank slates. There’s all kinds of writing on them. And so if someone is sort of a little monster, then you have to do something to protect society. Just like you know if the Cyclops walks into downtown Santa Barbara or something, you gotta do something about it.

[ethos 0]

Host: Well, we’ll consider when we see the Cyclops. What is the procedure? What would society do… Let’s say someone is an evil seed. What would he do with a kid that is bad?

Hridy: Well you can try to correct the child. If someone is determined simply to prey upon innocent people and cannot be restrained then I guess that person is out of the ballgame. Just like what happens in a baseball game if someone comes up and you know punches out the umpire? I mean they’re out of the game.

Host: I guess ??? What um… Do you advocate corporeal punishment?

Hridy: Well, the simple problem is that although America already holds the world record for incarcerating people, uh incarceration is increasing. So it’s a very simple fact that society cannot afford to incarcerate such huge numbers of people and therefore alot of anti-social, criminal people are simply released out on the streets to prey upon innocent women, men and children. So if you do not utilize corporeal punishment or capital punishment, then you cannot afford to incarcerate everybody and therefore you turn loose alot of criminals and therefore you are deciding to inflict corporeal punishment on innocent people. We should understand that. If this society adopts a system in which crime is rampant in the name of compassion for criminals, then that society has consciously decided and is responsible for the decision to inflict corporeal punishment and capital punishment on innocent citizens. So people may think it’s very noble and civilized not to inflict corporeal or capital punishment on criminals, but then you are deciding to inflict it upon innocent citizens. That it is decision, you are responsible, it’s predictable. It’s just like for example I could say Well, I pulled the trigger of this gun and I shot this person, but I didn’t want to shoot them, I just wanted to pull the trigger of the gun. But you’re responsible to know that when you pull a gun’s trigger the bullet goes out. So in the same way when you release criminals out onto the street because of this silly incarceration system… I mean in some cases obviously you incarcerate. But because we want to incarcerate everybody, therefore we know it is entirely predictable that we will overload the prisons, that we cannot afford to build unlimited prisons and that we will release criminals on the street. Those criminals will harm and kill innocent people. So when you choose that system, you are choosing to pull the trigger. You are choosing to inflict corporeal and capital punishment – not on criminals, but – on innocent citizens. So this society is so smart that it’s decided that if you have to choose between inflicting corporeal and capital punishment on criminals or innocent people, let’s inflict it on innocent people. That is the intelligent decision of this society. So thankyou very much.

Host: ???, you’re in charge. What would you do?

Hridy: Well if there has to… There has to be an ethic in society that you may not abuse another person. You may not steal from another person, you may not rape another person, you may not kill or injure another person. And if you do, the society is gonna punish you so severely that you’ll never do it again. And other people will also not be inclined to do it. The total amount of violence in a society with strong law enforcement is very little compared to the total… For example in Singapore they have heavy laws. So now the question is How many people – criminals or innocent people – actually receive corporeal punishment? And how many in America? Check out the numbers and see which society is compassionate.

Host: Well that’s… that’s another concept. How about a person inflicting on the order of the government, inflicting punishment on someone else? Doesn’t he incur in karma as well?

Hridy: Not if the person is actually… if the victim is… not the victim. But if the criminal is actually guilty, then it’s a law of nature.

Host: Well there’s always uh…

Hridy: You see you’re playing God if you don’t do that. Because if there’s a natural law in the universe that someone who perpetrates evil must be punished and if in the name of compassion you don’t punish that person, then you’re playing God because to play God means to invent your own laws.

Host: The topic is too hot. I can’t… I can’t get into the music right now.

Hridy: My apologies to Shubert.

Host: One thing… Perhaps in the background very, very soft. Tell… You are talking about corporeal punishment as if it was diplomas, you know handing out candy.

Hridy: No, it’s not candy. NO, it’s not candy. It’s exactly what the defender did to an innocent person. So what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If you think it’s alright to rape or mutilate or injure or kill and innocent person, then maybe you don’t have clear in your mind what you’ve actually done. So perhaps society should show you what it is you did, so next time you’ll have a more realistic understanding of what you’re doing to other people.

Host: Ok. Let me play the devil’s advocate. I’m gonna take the side of a so-called criminal, you know so-called cause otherwise I wouldn’t be devil’s advocate. I’ve committed a crime. I… let’s say something minor. I started by shoplifting or you know breaking the laws of traffic or stealing, but without causing any injury. What do you suggest there?

Hridy: Uh studies have now shown that… This is actually… I’m speaking of recent studies… that if a government, if a society allows all kinds of minor acts of quote/unquote of anarchy, of vandalism, that in fact it creates an atmosphere in which the people do not take seriously the law and this leads to more serious crime. That’s why governments for example, for example city governments in places like New York are now taking more seriously things they use to think were trivial. So uh it’s like a disease. You can say Well if… For example if I have a fever, but it’s not deadly, it’s not life-threatening, so I don’t have to take care of it. I won’t stay inside, I won’t take any medicine because it’s a small disease. Then what happens? So if you create… What happens is you get sick and die. So if in a society you take all kinds of anarchistic behavior as trivial, it creates an environment, an atmosphere in which law in general, order in general, respect for other people and their property in general is not taken seriously and then you get all kinds of crime. This is actually the fact. So therefore, you can say… It’s like saying I got a small fire in my house, but it’s only a small fire so I’ll just let it burn. Small fires become big fires. So if you allow your responsibility disrespect for other citizens, innocent people and their property, then it’s like a fire that gets out of control That’s exactly what happens.

Host: Well, you believe in karma. So if someone is gonna be either stolen from, um maimed or killed by me, it’s their karma.

Hridy: That’s playing God. We have to have a system of laws in which people respect other people and their property, do not exploit other people or their property, unfairly, abusively, violently, etc. And that’s the duty of the government, that’s the duty of the society, not to play God and think that you can do anything you want to anybody because if you get away with it, it must be their karma. You have to deal with people according to their behavior in this world. If people are behaving properly, you have to treat them properly. As far as the amount of force that should be used against, the simple point is there should not be crime. And how much force? As little as possible and as much as necessary.

Host: Well, let’s say I have these… I’m a cleptomaniac… Still talking about minor offenses. And um…

Hridy: As little as possible and as much as necessary.

Host: I hear you. I hear you. But let’s say this is a disease. It’s not something I uh…

Hridy: Well, you could say serial killing is a disease. Isn’t it? I mean wouldn’t you say a serial killer is a sick person? Or would you say he’s a healthy person?

Host: Um, I… as a sick person.

Hridy: Well, then it’s a sickness. So just give him some aspirins.

Host: Well…

Hridy: The point is you cannot abuse innocent people period. Either you accept that principle or you don’t. If you think that sometimes innocent people can be abused, you’re not qualified to be a governor. If you think it’s alright, then you should do something else for a living. (tape jump)

Host: I just took a phone call from a listener saying that uh you’re a Nazi. What do you respond to that?

Hridy: I would say that to be a bona-fide Nazi, uh someone should abuse innocent people because that’s exactly what the Nazi’s did. They committed violence against innocent people. So therefore if you advocate a system in which large numbers of innocent people become victims, then I’d say you’re a Nazi. So therefore you have to see in which system do significant numbers of innocent people become victims.

Host: Now you’re saying that right now in this society, the large majority of innocent people are victims and victimized by criminals… and because of the government?

Hridy: At the present time, the government is either unwilling or unable to actually enforce reasonable laws. Therefore, very large numbers of innocent people are killed, are maimed, are injured. And if you think that’s ok and if you don’t stop it, then you’re a Nazi because… Or at least during let’s say Hitler’s regime, there were so-called good citizens that may not have been personally employed in concentration camps, but that condoned or tolerated or thought it was ok the way things were going. So if you think it’s ok in a society that large numbers of innocent people become victimized, then you are a bona-fide Nazi or Nazi sympathizer. Cause that’s the essence of Nazism, to harm innocent people.

Host: Obviously you’re being sarcastic. But how many…

Hridy: No, I’m being very serious. If you think it’s ok, then you have that in common with the Nazis. The Nazis, let’s ay when they were in power, there were alot of people, so-called good citizens that kind of sat back and thought Well, you know. That’s life. That’s the way the government is. What can you do? That’s the way the world is. So if you think it’s ok that large numbers of innocent people become victimized, then you have alot in common with those people.

Host: So my guest today, Hridyananda das Gosvami who’s just defending himself against charges of being called a Nazi. But…

Hridy: No, it’s not a question of defending oneself. It’s a question of isolating objective principles and then seeing where they… those principles actually are substantiated. The objective principle here… Let us say or the uh issue here is harming innocent people. So if I perform and act or condone a system in which it is entirely predictable that large numbers of innocent people will become victimized and I think that’s alright as opposed to getting very heavy with people that are not innocent, if I prefer that innocent people be harmed rather than guilty people, then I think there is something warped in my brain.

Host: Do you have an example of a society that… in which that system has already proven to work?

Hridy: Well, there are many countries in the world that have different systems of law enforcement. Some of them have very little crime, some of them have alot of crime. I think you… Another cause actually of all this crime is what I would call hyper-urbanization. Uh everyone knows or should know that this tremendous urbanization that we’ve experienced in our society especially in this century is of course the classic symptom of decadence. You could see it in ancient Greece, you could see it in ancient Rome. You can see it in America, you can see it in India. You can see it anywhere in the world that when people tend to exaggerate or people tend to expand unnecessarily these anthropocentric environments, they loose touch with reality. They loose touch with nature, they loose touch with God, they begin to think that reality is man-made, that reality is just something created by human beings, including moral reality… and so uh you get these alienated, out of touch hyper-urbanized creatures uh that uh create these decadent societies and become so decadent that they think that victimizing millions of people in the name of you know I don’t know uh… kindness to criminals somehow makes since. And that’s the way you show you’re civilized by condoning a system in which millions of innocent women, children and men are victimized. If you condone that in order to be kind to a criminal, uh that shows you’re a good person.

Host: So you propose a society where there are very few jails, if at all, and most people are either killed or…

Hridy: Not killed. It’s very simple. People that want to participate in a society have to understand the rules. The rules are you cannot abuse other people. It’s very simple.

Host: Ok, what’s the punishment for abusing someone else? As little as possible, as much as necessary. But you can not abuse other people period. And those are the rules. And if you don’t want… if you don’t like the rules don’t play the game. Don’t… you know, you cannot be a member of that society if you don’t accept… Just like ever since you were a kid. You wanna play in the local touch football game in the street, these are the rules. If you don’t accept the rules then you can’t play in the game. It’s very simple.

Host: But what… I wonder about the type of people that you need to fill in the government post because they have to be…

Hridy: I can tell you what you don’t need.

Host: Oh! Ok. Go ahead.

Hridy: Well what you’ve got.

Host: Ok, what do you need?

Hridy: You need people that are honest, that are intelligent.

Host: How do you measure that? How do you… I mean intelligence. Do you take an S.A.T. score? An I.Q. test? What do you do? What’s intelligence?

Hridy: Uh by intelligence… I think intelligence should start with wisdom. And of course we can fill in all the technical skills. But if there’s no wisdom, there’s no higher understanding of anything. You just have a bunch of animalistic people fighting each other to get power, the what do you expect? I have good friend of mine who graduated from an ultra-prestigious law-school in this country and has been practicing international law in Manhattan for the last six or seven years and uh he made a comment recently that he cannot believe how corrupt the American legal system is. What the lawyers have done to justice in this country in the pursuit of their own…

Host: Interest?

Hridy: Yes, exactly, their own interest.

Host: Well is America an exception to the rule?

Hridy: America has I think uh I forget the exact numbers. Perhaps more lawyers than the rest of the world combined or something like that. I forget the exact number, but uh… Of course this country is most advanced materially which unfortunately turns out to be most advanced in terms of decadence. In that sense also maybe America is the best candidate to get better or to lead the world out of this darkness because America has already done it. Like they say in America, been there done that. So because we’ve gone all the way so to speak, maybe we know better now.

Host: How do we change society?

Hridy: Well you can start with yourself.

Host: Well how will I change myself?

Hridy: Well, to get religious, we advocate in this age that everyone within their own tradition, within their own culture, should chant the names of God, should meditate on the names of God, that this is the most efficacious way to purify one’s existence and to awaken one’s consciousness to a higher spiritual reality.

Host: Is there a choice?

Hridy: I just said everyone within their tradition, everyone within their culture… Is there a choice? Can you make god go away? No you can’t make God go away. Is there something as powerful as God or his name? No there’s not. Your choice is you’re free to worship God or to love God or to try to love God within your own tradition. But God is there and you can’t make Him go away.

Host: Ok, let’s say by your karma you were born in a particular circle where God wasn’t much of an issue. It’s not because of anger or envy or anything. It’s simply because it’s not a topic ???.

Hridy: Well what if you were born in a circle as you call it where there’s no hygiene? What if you’re born in a circle of crack addicts? The point is that we are responsible as human beings, especially in modern society in which we have so much access to information, we are responsible to find out the truth to the best of our ability and to live in accordance with it. By the way, that’s one of the consequences of the information age. Because there is so much information although it’s… people are sort of saturated. But about 99 percent of it you can sort of dump anyway because it’s obviously not the highest truth. And uh so among those things or those claims which at least look like they could be some kind of spiritual truth, then it’s your responsibility to sincerely look for God, to sincerely look for yourself, try to find out what you are, who you are beyond the body. I mean after all the body’s changing at every moment, we are what we eat, so who is that self, who is that eternal person within the body that’s experiencing the various changes and phases of the body? And who’s in control ultimately and why are we here? These are human questions. Not just what’s the latest little gadget I can by for my computer. These are the important questions that we should be asking as human beings.

Host: Well, you call that being religious. Maybe you should give up definition of what you consider being religion because I think spirituality goes alot better because many abuses were committed in the name of religion. Wars were fought.

Hridy: Well if someone… people… You can use whatever name you want. People abuse everything. People for example abuse on-line e-mail services. So maybe we should banish them or many people abuse cars by driving so fast. We should banish cars. People abuse medicine. We should get rid of all the doctors. So is it a principle that when something is abused you just banish the whole thing or you try to stop the abuse?

Host: Good point. So what’s real religion? What’s real spirituality?

Hridy: Real religion is to really love God.

Host: The whole… You said you chant God’s names. How do you notice… I mean besides yourself, how would other people see that you are actually loving God? What are the visible symptoms?

Hridy: Well how do people see me love anyone?

Host: Well, because you’re always thinking and talking about that particular person.

Hridy: That’s good for a start.

Host: How do you… What ??? society’s not – at least at the present moment is not geared toward that total change in consciousness as you may hope or propose. So what’s the uh… What’s the hope, what’s the vision you have for the uh near future. Like since in America we are used to get things right now, right away or forget about them. How… What’s actually a practical solution that we have?

Hridy: Well, we have to do the best we can and uh hope for the best. That’s all we can do. Isn’t it?

Host: So in an idea society we know how things will probably work. But we haven’t seen anything near what an ideal society should be like and instead we are stuck with America whether… What’s the saying?… England, despite the faults…

Hridy: Despite all thy faults I love thee.

Host: Yea, so America with all thy faults I love thee,

Hridy: Yea, it’s not a question of hating America or being against America. I mean if you’re trying to do what’s best and improve things, it doesn’t mean you don’t care about the place. It means you’re trying to help the place It’s a very simple fact. People simply have to realize that if you make certain decisions, then you are choosing – whether you like it or not – you are choosing to inflict corporeal and capital punishment on large numbers of innocent people. And if you think that’s alright, then have fun with the society you get.

Host: Um what do we do with the classic politicians? They don’t seem to be interested… Well, you may say there’s a percentage of them who are correct and it’s obvious there is a percentage of them who are correct and it’s not obvious there is a percentage of them that is… that are not correct.

Hridy: I suppose there are a few that aren’t corrupt.

Host: Ok, so what do you do with them? What do you do with the corrupt ones and the non-corrupt ones?

Hridy: Well, it’s very simple. We live in a democracy. If people come to a higher consciousness, they’ll obviously do the needful. They’ll elect people that are qualified.

Host: Well we have two major parties in this country, Republican and Democratic and uh…

Hridy: Now it looks like two and ahalf. But anyway, I think we just have to come to consciousness. We have to understand what’s going on and if people understand what’s going on, then they’ll do the right thing. That’s all. I don’t think we have to go into the technical details of how many parties we’ll have and etc., etc., whether it’ll take six months or five years or whatever. The point is as far as possible people should try to understand what God is, what the soul is, what the laws of God are and what has to be done in order to live properly.

Host: So none of the parties should be godless?

Hridy: Well, a godless people won’t tolerate a godless party and a godless people won’t tolerate a god conscious party. Isn’t it?

Host: My guest today is Hridyananda das Gosvami. Unfortunately he’s leaving town, going to Harvard and he’s being so kind as to show up for several of our programs. He’s a renowned scholar, writer, lecturer and he’s been here with us; Touchstone, KCSB 91.9 FM in Santa Brabara. Thankyou very much for coming.

Hridy: Thankyou. And thanks to everybody out there.