atma Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Dear Friends- Excuse my presumption that you may be interested in the following- I thought it was a thought provoking view worthy of consideration.... It was written by an associate living in India- Steve Forbes. Steve- Here's a piece I wrote this morning. Yesterday afternoon a fidayeen suicide car bomber drove his van into the State Legislature of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir killing at least twenty-seven innocent people. When the bomb went off, other terrorists went into the legislature building itself with automatic weapons and fought a protracted gun battle with security officers. The visual media showed pictures of about a dozen bloodied, mangled bodies, some scattered around the compound, others laid neatly side by side in a row of six. Everywhere one could see, on the premises of the State Assembly, there were sandbag barricades as well as hundreds of security personnel. The suicide attack was bold and daring. A Pakistani based terrorist group with a self avowed connection with Taliban (read ISI), called the Jaish-e-Muhammad, took credit for the slaughter. This was the very same terrorist group that executed the highjack of an Indian Airlines flight IC-814 from Kathmandu to Delhi in 1999. At that time, the five highjackers had the plane fly to KANDAHAR, Afghanistan, where the TALIBAN negotiated the release of the leader of the Jaish-e-Muhammad, Maulana Masood Azhar, and two others in the outfit from an Indian prison, in return for the safety of the innocent passengers on that ill-fated flight. The highjackers and the leaders of the Jaish-e-Muhammad returned to Pakistan to hero's welcomes. Maulana Masood Azhar has since appeared in numerous public rallies in Pakistan, calling on Muslims to join the jihad. CNN and BBC devoted two minutes and thirty seconds to the terrorist act, describing the perpetrators as Islamic MILITANTS and Kashmiri freedom fighters. Neither CNN nor BBC named the terrorist organization, nor referred to them as 'terrorists'. CNN described about a dozen casualties, BBC didn't give a number. There were no pictures of sobbing wives or husbands or mothers or sons, no interviews with those who witnessed the carnage. The reportage was matter-of-fact, and showed no sense of outrage. CNN followed these two and a half minutes with a ten minute piece on the possible ill effects of asbestos on the rescue workers in New York. This was not a bomb in a marketplace or disco, this was the state legislature, the seat of government and democracy. George Bush had described one of the motives of the WTC terrorists in America as wanting to "take away our freedom," while CNN/BBC described the terrorists in Kashmir as 'freedom fighters'. It is good to know which of the murderers are fighting AGAINST freedom, and which of them are fighting FOR freedom. We wouldn't want to get on the wrong side. Finally, someone has come closer to defining 'terrorism' and the 'war on terrorism'. Let's take our hats off to CNN and BBC, because they have made one of the first definitive moves in making these definitions. They describe the attack on the State Legislature as 'militancy', not 'terrorism'. I assume then that when Indian citizens are murdered by self appointed executioners with a political/religious agenda it is not terrorism, but militancy. When this happens in the United States, it is terrorism. Then, I could further conclude that the 'war on terrorism' means the war on those people that do this to the United States, but not on those that do it to OTHER people. Jaswant Singh, India's Foreign Minister, is in the United States for the 5 day United Nations conference on terrorism. George Bush called an impromptu 40-minute meeting with Singh, in which I wonder if he didn't warn Singh, in no uncertain terms, against India 'responding' to this attack in any way. I would hope that CNN/BBC would be just a tad more subtle as an instrument of propaganda for the U.S. government. I would think that they would attempt to provide at least a facade of independence. This morning, CNN has not mentioned the event even once in the last couple of hours. CNN/BBC are partners with the US government in selling the 'War on America's Enemies' as the 'War on Terrorism' to the world. In India, there are very few that are buying this. Bush and America are severely discredited, but remain the world's sole superpower, and therefore through sheer bully-power are able to get the Indian government and others to 'follow orders'. One of the many questions that people in this part of the world are asking is "who IS making the orders?" It is beyond obvious that Bush has nowhere near the intellectual skills to even understand what's happening, let alone know what to do, and Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld are perceived to be executors rather that strategists. The fall of the Taliban has already been discounted. They are the pawn of Pakistan's ISI (military intelligence) and are being held out to the Americans as the sacrificial goat. As the Americans 'created' Osama bin Laden in the 80's so they have 're-created' him today. We will never know who perpetrated the heinous act on the WTC (although we DO know who committed the terror in Kashmir), regardless of what we are led to believe. The case against the Taliban and Osama is absurd, even if the world would be a much better and safer place without them. What is being hidden by all this? America has a perfect right to defend itself, and to deal with whoever attacked the Pentagon and the WTC. But there is much more happening here, and we are being sold a bridge. 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JRdd Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Anyone with half a brain can see there is more to what's going on than the government would like its sheeple to believe. And it seems that those who hold the most patriotism here emulate the government in its bullying tactics to shut everyone up. Can you imagine what the discussions here could be like if we were allowed (without shut-em-up destroyers of reasonable discussions), freedom of speech here, on these forums? As it stands, seems you are either black or you're white and there is no room for in-between. Talk about extremism. (edited to add word left out) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-03-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 That's an interesting comment coming from someone who has repeatedly whined on a few forums trying to get others banned. Hmmmmmmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRdd Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 As far as "free speech" I draw the line at New Agey acceptance and/or tolerance of out-and-out Vaisnava aparadha. Also sexual harrassment and repeated use of gross language. We do need to consider our environment and audience, and maintain appropriate boundaries. Further for the cause of reasonable communications, a la mode of any self-reflective person: Keeping general, and using "I" statements and veering away for "you" statements as much as possible. Divide and conquer may be a militant tactic but it does no good among the devotee community. That's it for me on this thread, but best wishes, bro, and may you be successful in all your righteious endeavours. Jayaradhe (edited for omission of three words) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-03-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 You always like to slam the door on your way out, huh? How many times now, good grief. Adios! You'll be back. Just like a bad dream. ====================================== <h3>Rumors Run Rampant</h3> QUETTA, Pakistan -- Deep in the rabbit-warren markets of old Quetta, Mohammed Yaqoob Gugger sits by his rack of plastic hair clips and reveals who was behind terror attacks in America. It was Al Gore and the Israelis. Gugger's tortured reasoning, based on fragments he hears on the radio, goes like this: American Jews were upset because their man, Gore, lost to the Christians' candidate, George W. Bush. With Gore's help, they enlisted Israeli Mossad agents to bring down the World Trade Center. With every passing day, the rumors grow more fanatic and fantastic. No matter what evidence U.S. officials may eventually reveal to link Osama bin Laden to the Sept. 11 calamity, a radical fringe throughout the Muslim world is sure to reject it out of hand. A broad range of sensible voices, however, plead for something public from Washington that would convince the waverers and bury the conspiracy theories. NATO said Tuesday the United States had provided "clear and compelling" evidence of bin Laden's network being involved. But the Americans worry that public disclosure could jeopardize intelligence sources. We are as frightened of Muslim extremists as you are," Raja M. Afsar told an American visitor to the plush attorneys' lounge at the High Court of Balochistan, the Pakistani province on Afghanistan's southern border. At 64, Afsar is among Pakistan's most respected lawyers, and he believes that after they see the proof, Muslims will rally massively behind Washington. The only point from which bin Laden and his lobby can possibly take benefit is that an innocent man is being victimized," Afsar said He said military action should be quick but carefully targeted, "Otherwise, on one hand you lament the taking of lives and on the other you are doing the same thing." Tahir Mohammed Khan, 65, a writer who heads the provincial Human Rights Commission, nodded his agreement. The Americans must explain their case against bin Laden and then speedily depose the Taliban; if they wait, he said, radicals might whip up more resistance and popular support. Right now, Khan said, Muslim extremists are a minor threat magnified by TV camera lenses. Barely 5,000 gathered in Quetta on Tuesday to protest, despite strenuous efforts to truck in people from outlying areas. Behind a stunning rose garden hidden by a mud wall, the Durrani brothers heap scorn on bin Laden and his Taliban protectors. They would like proof that bin Laden is guilty, but they already hate his cause. The Durranis belong to a tribe that straddles Pakistan and Afghanistan and is widely reputed to be fair-minded, charitable and moderate. One of their clan ruled the Quetta region two centuries ago, before the British came. Today, the brothers worry about fundamentalism. They accuse the Taliban and the Arab fighters they shelter of perverting the image of Islam by shedding innocent blood. Abdul Qayyum Durrani, the elder brother at 61, fears the West will bomb Afghanistan, triggering worldwide reaction from extremists. "Millions of people are going to die because of one man," he said He blames a profusion of madrassahs, Islamic religious schools, for turning out young zealots with little practical education but prepared to believe anything their imams told them. Today, opening a madrassah is good business," he said. "The state gives you money, recognition. Then you can go all over the country and collect money The Durranis also insisted that speedy action was vital, otherwise people would start doubting American resolve and, more and more, fall victim to disinformation A tour of Quetta and its surroundings suggested they might be right In the hills near Quetta, four women in cotton shawls walked across a lake bed dried out by four years of drought. They were U.N. social workers returning from a village. Unprompted, one sang out to an approaching foreigner: "I love bin Laden." The others agreed, each eager to explain how Israel had attacked the World Trade Center to discredit Muslims. We love Americans, but it is American policy we can't stand," said Saima Mahsood, 26. The others nodded enthusiastic agreement. Amna Khan, 28, ticked off what she called examples of American terrorism: Vietnam, bombing children in Iraq, supporting Israel in its war with the Palestinians. All four said that if the evidence proved bin Laden guilty, they would turn against him. But their minds seemed made up already Osama could not done such a thing," Saima Mahsood said. "He doesn't have that kind of technical ability. Israel did it. I saw it on TV." [This message has been edited by rand0M aXiS (edited 10-03-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valaya Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Originally posted by JRdd: Anyone with half a brain can see there is more to what's going on than the government would like its sheeple to believe. And it seems that those who hold the most patriotism here emulate the government in its bullying tactics to shut everyone up. Can you imagine what the discussions here could be like if we were allowed (without shut-em-up destroyers of reasonable discussions), freedom of speech here, on these forums? As it stands, seems you are either black or you're white and there is no room for in-between. Talk about extremism. (edited to add word left out) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-03-2001).] You may be interested in watching ABC news nightline at 11:35pm EDST tonight. Oh, guess you don't have a T.V., do you? Well, guess you could just look in the mirror and use your obviously fertile imagination! Then you can share your wishful thinking here, unless of course someone hurts your feelings somehow... From : Nightline <listeditor@abcnews.go.com> Reply-To : Nightline <listeditor@abcnews.go.com> To : "Nightline Mailing List" <nightlinemail-l@alist0.starwave.com> Subject : NIGHTLINE: Watch What You Say Date : Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:31:49 -0700 Reply Reply All Forward Delete Printer Friendly Version TONIGHT'S SUBJECT: We are living in sober times, where words matter even more than before September 11. Whether it's news reports compromising troop movements (as in "loose lips sink ships") or simply being politically incorrect in this pre-war period, tonight we'll address the questions of what to say and how to say it. As this email goes out, we've just obtained newly released New York City police and fire department tapes from September 11. You'll hear those tonight. But our main focus will be political dissent at a time of crisis. ---- Is dissent in wartime unpatriotic? It's a perennial question with no easy answers. While there's been no official war declaration, President Bush has described the terrorist attacks as an act of war. One writer who's been critical of Osama bin Laden still worries that a prevailing "pseudo-unity" will, as the CHICAGO TRIBUNE noted, "choke off the spirit of dissenting individualism crucial to defeating" what he calls "Islamic fascism." Put another way, does fear trump constitutional rights? It's a question some citizens are asking after losing their jobs for what they've written or said in the wake of the September 11 horror. The OREGON DAILY COURIER columnist, the University of New Mexico professor and the host of the ABC program POLITICALLY INCORRECT (which follows NIGHTLINE in many cities) all know what it's like to be stung after their words ruffled feathers. The first two were fired. POLITICALLY INCORRECT'S Bill Maher has had some advertisers abandon his broadcast. Some would say the marketplace of ideas is working. But others argue free speech is taking a hit during this difficult time for the country. Tonight, in another special one-hour NIGHTLINE, Ted Koppel will speak with people who have different perspectives on White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer's misunderstood admonition that in times like these, people "need to watch what they say, watch what they do. . ." Among them writer Susan Sontag, who asked in THE NEW YORKER, "Where is the acknowledgement that this (the Sept. 11 terrorist attack) was not a 'cowardly' attack on 'civilization' or 'liberty' or 'humanity' or 'the free world' but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? Strong words. Not popular, especially in these times. But does she have the right to speak her mind? Or the TEXAS CITY SUN editor who was fired for writing a column critical of the President following the terrorist attack? Or Republican political operative Ed Gillespie who says "the events of 9/11 cause all of us to reevaluate. And I think we see a reevaluation of moral relativism." Lots of food for thought. We hope you'll partake. Wednesday, October 3, 2001 Richard Harris Senior Producer NIGHTLINE OFFICES Washington, D.C. ----------- If you have questions or comments regarding this message or a recent "Nightline" broadcast, please do not hit reply; simply click on this link to send your message directly to the "Nightline" staff: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/Nightline/Nightline_email_form.html Or log on to the new "Nightline" Message Board: http://boards.go.com/cgi/abcnews/request.dll?LIST&room=nightline Chat with "Nightline" guests and find articles, transcripts and video excerpts on our Web site at: http://abcnews.go.com/Sections/Nightline/ You can to the "Nightline" e-mail at: http://login.mailpref.go.com/ Ask your friends to sign up! Send them this link: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/nightline_login.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul108 Posted October 4, 2001 Report Share Posted October 4, 2001 jaya JayaRadhe! Your detractors are proving your point nicely. p.s. I have half a brain on each side! Originally posted by JRdd: Anyone with half a brain can see there is more to what's going on than the government would like its sheeple to believe. And it seems that those who hold the most patriotism here emulate the government in its bullying tactics to shut everyone up. Can you imagine what the discussions here could be like if we were allowed (without shut-em-up destroyers of reasonable discussions), freedom of speech here, on these forums? As it stands, seems you are either black or you're white and there is no room for in-between. Talk about extremism. (edited to add word left out) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 10-03-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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