Creation

[skopskald]

I would like to suggest again, this time as

a new topic, the creation story in the rg

veda 10.129. This group seems to have members

who have quite interesting viewpoints and would appreciate their input.

INOL,

Skopskals

[Guest guest]

Creation is like formation of mirage on a desert.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

Rg Veda

 

HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

 

1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.

What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?

 

2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.

 

3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darknew this All was indiscriminated chaos.

All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.

 

4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.

Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.

 

5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder

 

6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? TheGods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?

 

7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

[Gauracandra]

I'm curious if there is another translation of these creation verses, something that might be a bit more readable. I enjoy these verses, they have a real mythic aspect to them. But they seem a bit inchoate.

 

Here is one thing we might discuss:

Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.

Desire is the "germ" of spirit. To me this is very interesting as it suggests spirit arises or develops from desire. Perhaps in this sense spirit is not referring to the soul. Or perhaps it does. I'm not sure. But my reading of this verse is that it is desire that sets everything in motion. It is the basis the foundation of the creative impulse that drives the entire universe.

[Gauracandra]

Here is a question:

 

7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

Is the "He" in this verse referring to Lord Brahma? Is it saying that even for the highest person in heaven, even for that person the world is still a mystery?

[skopskald]

I have a number of translations of this hymn,

O'Flaherty- verse 7:

Whence this creation has arisen-perhaps it

formed itself, or perhaps it did not-the one

who looks down on it, in the highest heaven,

only he knows-or perhaps he does not know.

 

Pannikar-v.7:

That out of which creation has arisen,

Whether it held firm or it did not,

He who surveys it in the highest heaven,

He surely knows or maybe He does not!

 

from an article, 'Mapping Indian Philosophy,'

Whence this creation arose,

Whether he established it or not,

He who gazes down on it from heaven's height,

He alone knows-or perhaps he doesn't.

 

This, I think, is Aurobindo's:

Whence this creation has come into being;

whether it was made or not;

hein the highest heaven is its surveyor.

Surely he knows,

or perhaps he knows not.

 

Another trans. on vedah.com;

That from which this creation came into being,

whether it had held it together or it had not,

He who surveys it in the highest region, He, truly, knows it or maybe He does not know!

 

My own take goes something like this;

Creation happened,

Whether it worked out the way the Creator

wanted it

(He only set it going and then he only

watches, implying, I believe: free will)

Only he knows,

Or maybe he doesn't.

Putting this another way;

God was bored,

created the universe, decided not to interfere

and now is entertained by the stories.

 

[Gauracandra]

Thanks for those various translations. Are there any commentaries that follow those? I'd be interested in Aurobindo's views of this verse. Now of course I have a bias, but it sounds to me like it is talking of Lord Brahma, and not Visnu. I say this because it refers to the first "origin" of the Universe, and this sounds like that which was created after the universe already existed. And this is stated earlier on where it says that all the gods came after the universe.

 

I like your idea of free will. The creator within this universe, sets things in motion, and then sits back and see whats happening. Does he know where it is all going or not?

[xxvvii]

Here is a question:

 

7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

 

Is the "He" in this verse referring to Lord Brahma? Is it saying that even for the highest person in heaven, even for that person the world is still a mystery?

Who is "the first origin of this creation"? Who is 2m2?

[skopskald]

1-To me, though I have my own preference for

God's Name, RV 1.164.46 is, of course, relevant. Yet names are just that; names, do

they name Names, do they name Aspects, do they name Attributes, does it matter, or do

we use names so that we have a point of pride

to say, 'I'm right, I know more, better than

you!' and seek to convert, demean or even

destroy our fellows, for the Name they use

for, or to call on God.

 

2- who, what is 2m2?

 

3-Does Naming God, Naming Aspects, Naming

Attributes limit Our understanding or

perceptions of God? Just as I feel God

must laugh or smile at our presumptiousness

in our attempts to know the Unknowable.