How many have ghandi as your hero?

[narayanadasa 0]

You said "Our Constitution was made in such a way that the best of all world order was put together"

Then, did it not compromise on a lot of factors of all religions in the process? But are you telling that the constitution is a better representation of all religions, than the religions themselves?

 

Also, on what basis was the "best of all world order" decided? Was it from the religious books of various religions? If so, there are a lot of contradictions in each f them, how was that resolved? or was it purely by mental speculation using selfish minds? or was it purely to satisfy the minority while sacrifising the majority interests (secular)?

 

Religions may be man-made but Sanatana-Dharma, the Vedas, the Upanishads etc are not. They contain valuable information on what a society should be like - example Ram Rajya. Was any of this incorporated into the constitution? What was the goal of constitution then?

 

Sanatana-Dharma should be enforced and the constitution must be made to provide the necessary support to someone who can do it - like ISKCON, Ramakrishna Math, etc. This is what we wanted after freedom.

 

Secondly, India accomodated every religion but the major religion is suffering a lot, does the constitution have any solution for this? Well, yes, Muslims, Christians etc are sufferring too?

 

I certainly dont blame Gandhi for all of this but only telling that I dont find enough evidence of what he really wanted after freedom - what was his vision? I do find a lot of real vision from the others.

 

If this is what Gandhi wanted, then we have it, so why is it not working correctly? Or is it?

If this not what Gandhi wanted, then what did he want? Any mention about this anywhere? We certainly cannot accept Gandhi's auto-biography over any religious books that are given by God. If you analyze in depth than just by the worldly affairs you will certainly see the blunder we are in.

 

Finally, what we want India to be? As far as I can see, the Congress doesnt still have a clue about this. It appears that they are happy creating another Europe/US in India... great roads, foreign clothing, free sex, dont worry about birth, death, rebirth. Make the teachings of our great preceptors, like Srila Prabhipada, Sri. Ramanuja, Sri. Vivekananda, Sri. Chanakya etc, King Shivaji, Rana Pratap Singh etc as just waste pieces of material - dont include that in school text books etc. The congress doesnt want to analyze the other side of the coin because this side is beneficial to them (secular as used by Gandhi).

 

Remember, thats exactly where we are going a tangential direction to where we really want to.

 

 

[krishnadasa 0]

how did we gain independence?

 

Thats a good question infact the question shud be framed in a rather different way. Why did the Brits leave only in 1947 august 14 th midnight? couldnt they live before that, ? or might be they found gandi's so called movement nonsensical before our so called independence date?

 

He he the reason for independece is different, rather very very ugly, infact only few know (might pretend) it.

 

Its cos Nehru used to have illicet realtion with Mount baton's wife /images/graemlins/tongue.gif and mount baton didnt want to loose his wife. So on asking Nehru to not to touch lady mount baton, nehru asked him to give independance /images/graemlins/shocked.gif, and so we got it on that date- well the story looks a little dupious, but still sometimes sounds sensible he he /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Guest guest]

You dont have any right to talk about Gandhi, Gandhi has treated all alike but you brahmins kept SC ST caste people as untouchables even today. How many of you really treat SC ST caste people at least as Human beings so stop talking ill about such a great personality.

[jayan008 0]

1) Isn't 70% more than enough?

 

2) Obviously, since US is the only super power left, and who have sufficient controls of even the UN to an extent.

 

3) Petty politicians thrive, due to petty blank common people, who have no logical thinking capacity.

 

4) Nothing comes to an end altogether, but it minimises.

 

If you cannot understand real politics, how can you understand what is true in this world, which is controlled itself by ugly politics.

 

 

[Guest guest]

1) Is not 70% of Hindu population in India more than enough to implement a Hindu law?

 

2) Not correct, morally or logically. Every body should work towards their own benefits not depend on some external "super power" to save them , unless of course you have an interest in that super power (business or relatives staying there) you will definitely feel for our suffering rather than their benefits.

 

3) You had just confirmed my point nothing new added

 

4) How does it minimises without any effort.

 

Did I say i want to understand what is true in THIS world anywhere? i am not interested in understanding or reforming politics. I rather want to escape from it at the earliest possible time.

[jayan008 0]

The Constitution was made taking into account the various world order existing during that period viz., Capitalist Democracy, Communism, Socialism and then created a more secular form of Democracy where all religion were better represented.

 

Absolutely nothing selfish was involved while drafting. Mr. Ambedkar who drafted was a learned scholar. As I said, everything was taken into consideration. But then political parties in the long run amended and extended certain important guidelines to suit their own needs for eg., Reservation clause. It was made, as at the time of independence, the lower caste people were deprived of basic necessities to survive and hence a time period of 10 years starting from 1950 was made, wherein a percentage of government jobs would be reserved for the underpriviledged, so that they could make a start and in 10 years would be self-sufficient. However, vested interest in the political circles misused it and extended for the next 10 years, which is still on, thus gaining the support of the lower class and underpriviledged while gaining a upperhand on the opposition. Attempt to stop it failed, as there have been widespread agitation by people. Initially these people were misled by the politicians that if they allow it their life would once again be like before and presently these people misuse it by threatening to vote out the party which support such moves. The result of it is less-qualified people doing jobs, resulting in low quality of the work and other negative effects.

 

One religion cannot be incorporated in our Constitution, because, unlike in other countries we have a multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-lingual groups of people.

 

A particular religion suffering is due to this complexity of so many religions to deal with coupled with the vested interest of the ruling parties. Not a single political party is bothered about people or any religion in particular, except their desire to be in power. There are so many hindutva parties, who boasted many things, but once they came to power, they were wooing the other religions for support.

 

Gandhi’s vision was that all people, regardless of their religion or caste, stay united under one roof. If Gandhi’s vision is not working, it is because of all the above factors, which he cannot control, because he was never involved in any political party, even though Congress always misquoted that he belonged to them. He is used as a tool by Congress to hide their dirty tricks.

 

Your fear of Indian turning into a vicious country like US / some in Europe, is very much true, but there is a positive side as you can see with globalisation, even though some bad influence of west has arrived, it has boosted the economy by creating new job opportunities, which in turn has raised the standard of living, industries are improving their standards to compete international companies and have succeeded in making their presence in the global market, they are abiding to the environmental rules, women are becoming more self dependants, education has broadened with various fields of study available.

 

Changes will come, nothing can be achieved overnight, but it will take time, a long time infact, due to the ill effects of bad political situation, but we have definitely made a start.

 

[jayan008 0]

1) Right. But, the party which does it will not survive the next election, and they cannot risk it. All are hungry for power, who care where India will be in future. They only think of the present situation and themselves.

 

2) Wrong. What did US did to Iraq? Did the US find any weapons of mass destruction, the thing which they claimed and the reason for which they waged the war? No. Their only intention was to grab the oilfields. Why don't they strike Israel or Pakistan. Who created the Muslim Jehadis (the group which is now led by Osama), It was US, Pres. Ronald Reagon. They made such groups of islamic fundamentalist to oust Russia from afgahnistan during the 80s. Now they are reaping what they sowed. What about U.K., they harboured all these islamic criminals and indian khalistan criminals, and see what they have dug for themselves. All countries, esp. super powers plays only to their benefit, they don't care a damn about other countries and their problems. Initially US were critical about India in trade matters, now it is changing because most of their companies and business interest is in India and China.

 

3) Why should i contradict a correct statement.

 

4) Efforts are on, if you read the latest happenings and development taking place, you will realise it. India and China is the fastest growing economy in the world. People are realising the important of good governance. But, it will definitely take time.

 

Politics is the present order of the world, no one can escape from it. We should from our part try and bring to light the good things in it before people and understand it ourselves. Running away is never an end solution.

[krishnadasa 0]

Hmm right discussion in between

 

Guess this is a curse for bharatha varsha , which arose cos of the false social system existing°

 

Just got to bring varnashrama - hatur varna dharma,then the things will balanace.

 

On the main topic.

 

Gandhi never proposed any such kind a dharma, he said all are equal, and he meant that in a vague manner. Only Krishna knows what exactly he meant when he saif all are equal. And the result you can see all the lowest class shudras however you call them SC /ST or anything, have taken the ruling chairs and raping both the country and the culture.

 

Don be proud of gandhi, for he has brought (if you think so)such an independence , which has brought a much of turbulance than nothing!

 

hari hari bol

[narayanadasa 0]

Yep, What Gandhi wanted is not clear? thats what I am telling from the very beginning. I dont know whether he is good or bad (I dont care!) but it appears that the congress hyped a lot about him (may be Gandhi himself would have been embarassed if he was alive). Also, the negative thoughts about Gandhi were suppressed with positive thoughts being projected more than necessary making any comparison unjust. Even people like Rajagopalachari had negative thoughts, these were being hidden.

 

Secondly, there cant be varnasharma if all are equal. Varnashrama however only means that all are different in terms of what type of work we do, but we are all spiritually equal.

 

For those of you who are interested I am already discussing the plan to revive India in another thread called "Truth about British Invasion and plan".

 

Jai Sriman Narayan

 

[narayanadasa 0]

Jai Sriman Narayan:

 

Found more information on the topic: http://ngodse.tripod.com.

 

No conclusions yet.... just posting information I found

[Guest guest]

I think all this stuff about the Mahatma is wrong. I am a great admirer of the Mahatma. He was the greatest political leader India ever produced.British had already decied to give India dominion status like Austrelia by 1950.This dicision was taken in 1910.Never in indian history common man participated in any national movement .It was always one king against another.Ghandi adopted nonviolence as a weapon because the masses had to be awakened & the Brtish had put down every attempt at armed uprising ruthlessly.He did not particularly believe in it do not go by his utterences or writings.he has made several contadictory statements.

I have read all sorts of stories about how Gandhi pampered Muslims.can someone tell me of even one concession he made to muslims.He wasd not a cause of partition,but he was helpless to prevent it.Congress & the mahtma had come to the conclusion that partition was invitable in 1940. the next seven years were spent in trying to either stop it or get the best deal for hindus from it.

He did not sideline Sardar Patel this was the myth spead by the RSS. Sardar, Jawaher, Subhash, Rajaji,Maulana Azad were his core cabinet . Each was assigned thier role by Gandhi. Do not go by the facade of Brhamcharya, nonvoilence,veg. food,spinning etc. Gandhi was an astute political leader with only one aim in life an independent India thru. mass awakening

[Guest guest]

Gandhi read "Sermon on the mount" in the New Testament through Tolstoy (Kingdom is in you)when he was in Africa. "If an enemy strikes you on your right cheek offer him your left cheek " Gandhi believed and in fact he told this to his good christian friend when they confronted some young white thugs in Africa. Based on this Gandhi introduced the word Non violence. There is awesome power in weakness ( do not mistake this for cowardness like the fanatic terrorists) Mighty British could not face skinny old man wrapped in a loin cloth.As you know rest is history.

Do you want to know something more? Martin Luther King studied Gandhi and he applied this in US to fight against the discriminations Black people faced.The goal was not to defeat the white man, but to awaken the sense of shame within the oppressor and challenge his false sense of superiority.

Gandhi practically demonstrated Sermon on the Mount and succeeded. Not many Christians are aware of it. IT IS ALL ABOUT HUMAN FREEDOM, Through freedom we find LOVE, Life is all about LOVE. Every thing follows LOVE. GOD LOVES ALL.....KT

[Guest guest]

Krishnadasa,I can not understand how you can justify varnashrma in this age ,all human beings are equal and no God nor any religion has any right to tell any human being that you are high or low either because of birht or sins in the previos life. Varnashrma is a myth greated by crafty and cunning brhamins to keep people in bondage as is reincarnation.this is really horrible and and is against all human values

[Guest guest]

In reply to ajit12

 

I agree.It is nice to know the history but this is changing world.People who want to stay with those "rules", concept of karma, sins, reincarnation, etc can stay there forever and they make no progress. It is their choice.

It is the concept of GRACE that gives us the freedom to Love our fellow human beings regardless of his status or varna. Only in love we can find our purpose in this life and our responsibilities. God is an experience we see in our daily life. God LOVES us all...............KT

 

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Re

(Krishnadasa,I can not understand how you can justify varnashrma in this age)

 

Sorry Krishnadasa to butt in, I had to ask ajit12 in which age would he justify varnashrma?

What is so special about this age?

 

Re

(all human beings are equal and no God nor any religion has any right to tell any human being that you are high or low either because of birht or sins in the previos life.)

 

I would like to add if I may, all those living entities are equal would you agree?

 

I observe different gradation in life, Varnashram or no varnashram or is it my imegination?

What sort of god is he or she if he has no right?

What is Dharma without rules and regulation?

Perhaps you can tell us all why there is so much unequality in this world?

 

 

Re

( Varnashrma is a myth greated by crafty and cunning brhamins to keep people in bondage as is reincarnation.this is really horrible and and is against all human values)

 

Do you know what is a real quality of a Brahmin?

What is an alternative to reincarnation?

Chance random selection yes?

 

And yes I agree reincarnation is horrible just as Sankracharya confirms

TEXT 22

punarapi jananam punarapi maranam punarapi jananii jathare shayanam iha samsaare bahudustaare kripayaa apaare paahi muraare

Meaning

Born again, death again, birth again to stay in the mother's womb! It is indeed hard to cross this boundless ocean of samsara. Oh Murari! Redeem me through Thy mercy.

 

But what you are proposing is even worse, where I do not have any choice

 

So tell us what human values you are so proud of?

Is it the millions of slaughterhouses that man kind supports? What about their rights.

Is it the millions of liquor and brothel house?

Is it the education system where the primary goal is how to earn money?

So tell us please what is not so horrible in this world, what are the human values by which one can get permanent happiness?

 

Jain Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ganeshprasad,

1]I do not justify varnashram in any age.All religions, god and sripures is a myth created by humans in the age when they could not understand working of nature ,like smallpox,cholera was considered to be anger of some godess . Now with the the advent of science we no better ,so in these age we should not cling to myths like varnashrama.

2]Since there is no god I do not attribute any righe to him.All dharma is cruel . If you read Manusmriti. Yagnawalk smriti they are so cruel to women, harijans etc.therefore the sooner we accept that dharma is not applicable in this age better it is.the inequality is due human beings and it is being made equal or has to be made equal by us humans only. we don't have to justify this horror in the name of dharma.rather let us all work together to create eqality.

3]Yes I know the qualites of bramhin.all the vedic granths are contradicting each other about what Brhamin is supposed to or not supposed to do.To give one example ,bramin is supposed to go after knowledge. what knowlege?memorising some irrelevant shlokas in vedas?that is not knowledge.Even then Manusmriti says a brahmin who knows only gayatrimantra is to be revered.There is no reincarnation.We die and that is the end.Period.

What is wrong with slaughterhouses.All vedic literature speaks about feasts of meat.Refer Rajsuya yagnya chapter in Mahabharta & themenu of feast organise by Dharmaraj for ten thousand brahmins fed .liquer and brothels were there in vedic times,Refer how to pay ganikas in Anushasan parva.I AM NOT SUPPOTING THIS.but it is us humans who have made it and we have to get rid of it.We should not escape that by ask<ing fot some god to help us.

[Ganeshprasad 0]

Jai Ganesh

 

Thank you ajit12

As I suspected you do not believe in god, that is fine it is your choice.

Since this life according to you is a product of chance, it is obvious there can not be any need for you for any rules or order.

We come in to this world for a sort period of time out of no where and we disappear in to thin air in due course of time. In between we struggle for our existence doing 4 main thing i.e. eat sleep mate and defend. And I tell you a secret we come always a second best in all 4 departments, in comparison to the animals. They eat, sleep mate and defend but they do not have to plan it, is so natural for them.

You talk about human values but I do not understand why, it is all based on greed, almost all human in this age are the most cruel species on earth you simply have to analyze with an open mind.

If you really want to know the quality of a Brahmin I suggest you read Chapter 18, Verse 42.

 

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.

 

And while you at it read chapter 16 also it describes quite clearly how those who think that there is no god.

 

 

Chapter 16, Verse 8.

They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust.

 

 

Chapter 16, Verse 11-12.

They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification.

Chapter 16, Verse 13-15.

The demoniac person thinks: "So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him; and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice." In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance.

 

If you want to discuss more on this subject you may want to open a new thread, since this thread is about Gandhi

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Ganesh prasad I have started a new thread named there is no god . pl. join me there