Ganesh Prasad Ji, if you are tuned in

March 1, 2005

Namaskar,

I wrote something for a friend that I reproduce below.

Jai Shri Krishna

Jai Mahesvara

Namaskar Grames Ji

*********** I may not be able to enlighten you with my limitted knowledge but i can answer if i know the answer. Please do ask if you still consider i am significant. **********

This is a very uncharacteristic statement from a person who, I guess, is a HK. But it is characteristic of a true Krishna devotee. If you truly believe what you have written then I would say that there is always scope of spiritual enrichment through spiritual discussion since only on attaining perfection can the enquiry and awe stop. And have we attained that?

************ I do like to answer for questions if i am given such knowledge by my beloved God. ******************

Is there any doubt about it? Vac is first born of truth so all avidya which leads to Vidya, is given by HIM alone.

********** I hope, i already answered for most of your questions and you, yourself answered the big Q and so why asked you what is that you wanted to talk about. Here is your answer... *****************

No many questions are unanswered.

Now, I wish to explain my purpose. I have seen many unsavory discussions wherein the real differences arose from language and not from essence. That is why I said let us define soul and enrich each other the way Devas do, and not destroy each other like asuras do.

You may wish to read further or you may wish to disregard the following altogether.

You first stated that “Soul doesn't require knowing itself and there is no struggle for the soul.”

And I agreed. Then you said “YES SOUL IS STRUGGLING”. Cyclic redundancy that I coined from computer lingo refers to this turn around.

You explained that ‘Soul is subjected to Maya’ and ‘Soul is not Supreme’. You also said ‘uncountable number of soul exists and individually in just one form for a life span.’

You supported ‘Soul is struggling’ with BG 8.15 as below.

8.15. Having attained Me these great souls do not again take birth (here), which is the place of pain and is non-eternal; they have reached the highest perfection (liberation).

Now see the context:

8.11. That which is declared imperishable by those who know the Vedas, that which the self-controlled (ascetics) and passion-free enter, that desiring which celibacy is practiced—that goal I will declare to thee in brief.

8.12. Having closed all the gates, confined the mind in the heart and fixed the life-breath in the head, engaged in the practice of concentration,

8.13. Uttering the monosyllable Om—the Brahman—remembering Me always, he who departs thus, leaving the body, attains to the supreme goal.

8.14. I am easily attainable by that ever-steadfast Yogi who constantly and daily remembers Me (for a long time), not thinking of anything else (with a single or one-pointed mind), O Partha (Arjuna)!

8.15. Having attained Me these great souls do not again take birth (here), which is the place of pain and is non-eternal; they have reached the highest perfection (liberation).

Lord is talking about great persons, who already know that they are atma and not the field. And they know that their adhidaiva origin (purusha) is eclipsed by maya.

For others who are still either the field or the purusha seated in maya, Lord has used the terms Field and Purusha. These we will see below.

You defined soul as: ‘Soul? = Soul is the Spiritual entity.’

This definition I feel is a definition of a so-called individual soul, as the entity word is there. This entity has no intelligence of its own. The consciousness comes from the super consciousness – Lord Parjanya.

I would always prefer Atma, which is the real Vac in scriptures. Atma means Self. That which is a person’s inner core – the prajnya, the intelligence, the life and finally, the real “I”.

From this premise, I asked can there be two Atmas in Grames? Then who is saying “I am Grames”?

If you care, you may ponder “Are there two selves in me – one Mahesvara nicely sitting in the heart and another created by this Grames?”

It is your choice. You may disregard this. But this alone constitutes the knowledge. When Lord talks about mahanatmas in BG 8.15, he is referring to yogis who already have answered this.

You have said ‘uncountable number of soul exists and individually in just one form for a life span.’ You imply that soul changes form, from incarnation to incarnation.

But Lord says that the self (‘yam) is unchanging, stable and sthanu as below:

2.22. Just as a man casts off worn-out clothes and puts on new ones, so also the embodied Self casts off worn-out bodies and enters others that are new.

2.24. This Self cannot be cut, burnt, wetted nor dried up. It is eternal, all-pervading, stable, ancient and immovable

13.20. Know thou that Nature and Spirit are beginningless; and know also that all modifications and qualities are born of Nature.

So, all modifications are born of nature and not of Atma.

Now I will show that for others, Lord has used the terms field and purusha. And Lord has also instructed that attachment to gunas of nature is the cause of misery and transmigration (re births).

Let us first see what is Purusha.

8.4 Adhibhootam ksharo bhaavah purushashchaadhidaivatam;

Adhiyajno’hamevaatra dehe dehabhritaam vara.

8.4 . Adhibhuta (knowledge of the elements) pertains to My perishable Nature, and the Purusha is the Adhidaiva; I alone am the Adhiyajna here in this body, O best among the embodied (men).

13.7. Desire, hatred, pleasure, pain, the aggregate (the body), fortitude and intelligence—the Field has thus been described briefly with its modifications.

Please note that the field (body) is aggregrate of Desire, hatred, pleasure, pain, the aggregate (the body), fortitude and intelligence. Is there anything real here? Is it not just a conglomerate of some thoughts and desires?

13.21 Kaaryakaaranakartrutwe hetuh prakritiruchyate;

Purushah sukhaduhkhaanaam bhoktritwe heturuchyate.

13.21. In the production of the effect and the cause, prakriti is said to be the cause; in the experience of pleasure and pain, the purusha is said to be the cause.

13.22 Purushah prakritistho hi bhungkte prakritijaan gunaan;

Kaaranam gunasango’sya sadasadyoni janmasu.

13.22. The purusha seated in Nature experiences the qualities born of Nature; attachment to the qualities is the cause of his birth in good and evil wombs.

I have retained the original Sanskrit verse to show that the word purusha has been used. It is purusha (the adhidaiva) that seated in nature experiences pain and pleasure and not the atma. The atma word is specifically used for the ‘unchanging, ancient, stable, and sthanu’ being.

And about this ‘Sthanu being’ the Lord says:

13.17 And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

So, the Atma appears to be divided but is ONE. Being a devotee of Lord Krishna I hope that you will not doubt his teachings.

Now, if you permit me let us examine some more. The Lord explains the highest goal and his highest abode.

8.21. What is called the Unmanifested and the Imperishable, That they say is the highest goal (path). They who reach It do not return (to this cycle of births and deaths). That is My highest abode (place or state).

8.22 Purushah sa parah paartha bhaktyaa labhyastwananyayaa;

Yasyaantahsthaani bhootaani yena sarvamidam tatam.

8.22. That highest Purusha, O Arjuna, is attainable by unswerving devotion to Him alone within whom all beings dwell and by whom all this is pervaded.

‘Purusha Parah’ is the highest goal and it is Lord Krishna’s highest abode.

I repeat ‘Purusha Parah’ is the highest goal and it Lord Krishna’s highest abode.

In 8.3 Lord also states:

8.3 Aksharam brahma paramam swabhaavo’dhyaatmamuchyate;

Bhootabhaavodbhavakaro visargah karmasamjnitah.

8.3. Brahman is the Imperishable, the Supreme; His essential nature is called Self-knowledge; the offering (to the gods) which causes existence and manifestation of beings and which also sustains them is called action.

Thus the great Lord says that Param Brahman is the Supreme. He says Param Purusha is the Goal. And It is his supreme abode. His best house as if.

Now again, if you permit me, I will explore a bit more of the Atma.

All verses from Chapter 13

13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.

19. Thus the Field as well as knowledge and the Knowable have been briefly stated. My devotee, knowing this, enters into My Being.

Note: Without knowing this Atma, can one enter Lord’s abode?

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;

Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.

23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.

Note: Supreme Soul is Mahesvarah and Purusha Parah (BG 13.23) and also Parah Brahman (BG 13.13)

25. Some by meditation behold the Self in the Self by the Self, others by the Yoga of knowledge, and others by the Yoga of action.

26. Others also, not knowing thus, worship, having heard of it from others; they, too, cross beyond death, regarding what they have heard as the supreme refuge.

28 Samam sarveshu bhooteshu tishthantam parameshwaram;

Vinashyatswavinashyantam yah pashyati sa pashyati.

28. He sees, who sees the Supreme Lord, existing equally in all beings, the unperishing within the perishing.

29. Because he who sees the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self, he goes to the highest goal.

13.31 Yadaa bhootaprithagbhaavam ekastham anupashyati;

Tata eva cha vistaaram brahma sampadyate tadaa.

31. When a man sees the whole variety of beings as resting in the One, and spreading forth from That alone, he then becomes Brahman.

34. Just as the one sun illumines the whole world, so also the Lord of the Field (the Supreme Self) illumines the whole Field, O Arjuna

35. They who, through the eye of knowledge, perceive the distinction between the Field and its Knower, and also the liberation from the Nature of being, they go to the Supreme

Now, Grames Jee, I wish to demonstrate that the ONE ATMA seated in every being equally, appearing to be divided but actually ONE, TAT, Param Brahma, Param Purusha and Lord Krishna’s highest abode, THAT Mahesvara is never tainted. He is never caught in Maya. Maya never disturbs HIM. And without knowing HIM one cannot enter into Lord Krishna’s highest abode.

8.30. He sees, who sees that all actions are performed by Nature alone and that the Self is actionless.

32. Being without beginning and devoid of (any) qualities, the Supreme Self, imperishable, though dwelling in the body, O Arjuna, neither acts nor is tainted!

33. As the all-pervading ether is not tainted because of its subtlety, so the Self seated everywhere in the body, is not tainted.

To my query whose is the body? Where from the body arrived? You had answered:

‘The material bondage, the form of Jiva is body and the owner of this body is Soul. Material body itself tells you where from it comes. Material energies, materials, matter! and soul is Dhenina.’

I ask where from the material comes?

The Great Lord has stated:

13.7. Desire, hatred, pleasure, pain, the aggregate, fortitude and intelligence—the Field (the body) has thus been described briefly with its modifications.

********** Please do ask if you still consider i am significant ***********

Grames ji, being a true devotee of Lord Krishna, you must believe that Lord Krishna is the doer and the enjoyer both. Lord Krishna only lets you know that you are significant. Mahesvara is seated nicely within you. The field that covers Mahesvara is just an aggregate of desire, hatred, pleasure, pain, fortitude and intelligence.

You are significant, if you believe that you are not bound. Then you become the Atma. Whether the Atma is Supreme or not is a mute point since, to obtain Krishna’s abode, you have to know the unchangeable, ancient, Atma – the Param Purusha and the Param Brahman.

Jai Shri Krishna

Jai Mahesvara

Ganeshprasad · March 2, 2005

Jai Ganesh

Namaskar Atanu

Long time no contact Hope you are keeping well and getting ready for approching Maha Shivratri.

i read your post with interest,i have just come home so i am sure we have missed each other.

Re

(Now, I wish to explain my purpose. I have seen many unsavory discussions wherein the real differences arose from language and not from essence. That is why I said let us define soul and enrich each other the way Devas do, and not destroy each other like asuras do.)

any discussion along devas line is acceptable and real progress towards spritual understanding.

it is getting late now, so off to bed.

Jai Shree Krishna Jai Mahadev

March 2, 2005

"This is a very uncharacteristic statement from a person who, I guess, is a HK. But it is characteristic of a true Krishna devotee."

it is very nice that you, homaging this nice devotee, are blaspheming thousands of people all over the world sincerely following krsna's message and spreading it

this generalized offence reveals you as totally ignorant of spiritual knowledge