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Raguraman

Questions on Buddhism

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Hare Krishna,

 

I would appreciate input from any Buddhist.

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Given below is just a short description of my undrestanding of Upanishads and Gita and I have given this to show you how my mind works so that you may explain properly Buddhist concepts.

 

According to Upanishads something apart from material body, mind, intelligence and thoughts exist which is called Jiva(Soul) and apart from this Atma(As in GOD) exists.

 

Jiva is a localized centre of consciousness, unborn and immutable implies eternal.

 

Atma(as I understand is GOD) is immutable(eternal) and omnipresent.

 

Matter is also etrenal but changes forms and structure.

 

Atma is the entity that is independent(in every way) and all other entities move, breathe, think, etc. because of this entity called Atma. Even the mere existence of other entities(except Atma) depends on Atma.

 

So says the Upanishads.

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Buddhism(as I understand): Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

 

Going beyond the language and words.

 

Buddhism says that there is one eternal entity that is beyond existence(as that which can identify itself separately from other entities or entities we experience in this universe) and non-existence(as being annihilated).

 

Buddha is in this state and HE can appear simultaneously in two or more places if necessity exists(may be disseminate knowledge again).

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Questions:

 

1. What is the difference between ATma concept and Buddhist concept of eternal entity(associated with Nirvana)? If you do not understand Atma concept fully I will be willing to elaborate it to you.

 

2. What is bound by desires in us human beings and what is born again and again according to Buddhism ?

 

3. What happens when we sleep where there is no consciousness or sense I'ness or any 'ness? How is Nirvana different from this state ?

 

4. How is the state of matter different from Nirvana(except the property of transformation of matter) ?

 

5. Consciousness(Chit) as I understand is pure awareness which is the foundation of mind and intelligence which in turn is the foundation of all feelings. So Chit can be a pointer to something that possesses it. Is there any concept like this in Buddhism ?

 

Now feelings, thoughts etc. are understood to be phenomenon, according to Buddhism where does it rise from ? If it is said that it arises from Brain which is merely matter then I am not convinced how a dead matter, its' property itslef being unconsciousness can bring consciousness and thoughts ?

 

6. What happens to unenlightened beings when they die, with regard to psychic body(thoughts, feelings etc) ? Do they recognize themselves as separate entities ?

 

I may have many more questions. Thankyou for ypour response already.

 

As per my personal experience I am not able to get beyond the state of awareness or the state of witnessing my own thoughts. I would be iterested in Buddhist practises of meditation as well.

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Dear Raguraman,

I have been thinking about your questions and thought I might begin the discussion and try to put in my two cents worth. I am far from any kind of expert on the subject so don't consider this too authoritative. I'm hoping that what I write can be something basic that other more studied people on here might be able to add to. These answers might not be very complete, but they are a start...maybe.

 

Ragu:

"Buddhism says that there is one eternal entity that is beyond existence(as that which can identify itself separately from other entities or entities we experience in this universe) and non-existence(as being annihilated)."

 

I would say that Buddhism says that simply there is a deathless element that is present. The Buddha seems to have avoided using the word eternal. Infact he seems to avoid using very many words at all to describe this deathless element or the Nirvana-element. He seems to stress the pint that too much conseptualization or defining would simply miss the mark and cause people to hold incomplete or faulty understandings of the Deathless state. If I consider the word eternal, my materially conditioned mind conceptualizes a state that goes on for ever and ever, but if the Deathless state is "outside" or devoid of time, how can we say it goes on for ever and ever...you see what I'm saying? Something that is beyond time and space and conceptions and limited language can't really be articulated using these limited concepts, so why bother? That, to me, seems to be the Buddhist view point on it. The idea being: don't talk about it, just realize it.

 

Ragu:

"Buddha is in this state and HE can appear simultaneously in two or more places if necessity exists(may be disseminate knowledge again)."

 

This is not really accurate, at least in the Theravada school which I have more of an orientation from. Maybe some of the Mahayanists around might be able to explain thier concept of the different bodies of the Buddha...I am not familiar. But in the Theravada school, they say that we can not say the Buddha is existing in any kind of state we can comprehend. He is sometimes called the "One Well Gone". This is an interesting idea. It almost comes off as a kind of void-ism or nihilism, but it just means that the enlightened being achieves a state that can't be understood or talked about...inconcievable. He doesn't exist in any state we can understand.

 

Ragu:

"1. What is the difference between ATma concept and Buddhist concept of eternal entity(associated with Nirvana)? If you do not understand Atma concept fully I will be willing to elaborate it to you."

 

This concept of Atma we talked about a bit before. The Buddha did not use this term atma (defined as "self"). The state of Nirvana is a fully self-less state. But it seems to akin to the Brahman concept talked about by Sankhara... (insert elaboration here.)

 

Ragu"

"2. What is bound by desires in us human beings and what is born again and again according to Buddhism ?"

 

This brings up the concept in Buddhism know as dependant origination which can be quite detailed but I can try to put it in a nut shell. Buddhism does not accept the concept of the eternal jiva traveling from one body to the next. in fact nothing really travels from one body to the next. To understand rebirth, we have to see what is happening right now in our experience. The Buddha says that all we consider to be self is just a constant flow of rising and ceasing conditions caused by a previous condition. Like a condle lighting another candle. The so we are constantly being born and dying minute by minute. At death, this stream (the mind stream) of dependant events continues. When this stream is extinguished, this is Nirvana. This self is "extinguished" and what remains is the undefineable Deathless element which is devoid of self-ness.

 

(This is an incomplete explaination I agree. I'm hoping some expert will pop in here and elaborate...)

 

Ragu:

"3. What happens when we sleep where there is no consciousness or sense I'ness or any 'ness? How is Nirvana different from this state ?"

 

The answer to this one is relativley simple. When we are asleep, we are just that; asleep. Unaware. In vedic terminology, we are in ignorance or tamo-guna. Nirvana is the complete opposite; fully awake, full and pure awareness...etc.

 

Ragu:

"4. How is the state of matter different from Nirvana(except the property of transformation of matter) ?"

 

Matter is just a constantly changing mass of dependant elements, constantly changing, in flux. Nirvana is unconditioned pure "such-ness" or being...no birth or death, free from delusion, lust, greed, hatred, etc...

 

Ragu:

"5. Consciousness(Chit) as I understand is pure awareness which is the foundation of mind and intelligence which in turn is the foundation of all feelings. So Chit can be a pointer to something that possesses it. Is there any concept like this in Buddhism ?"

 

This concept assumes that chit is an energy emenating from someone who posses it. The Buddha might say, but where is that person or being? Can you see him or experience him? I think the idea is that the Pure Awareness, unconditioned is the Nirvana element, and devoid of personhood or self...the foundation or Ultimate Ground of existence

 

Ragu:

"Now feelings, thoughts etc. are understood to be phenomenon, according to Buddhism where does it rise from ?"

 

They arise from each other. One thing cause another. I will bring in my list of the stages of dependant origination and explain this more another time. But the idea is that feelinfs and thoughts etc are all conditioned by other "elements" which were conditioned by thier previous cause and on and on without begining... The problem, the Buddha might say, is that we think these temporary, conditioned elements to be our "self" or arising from a "self", ie. ignorance...thus cause us to crave and desire to manipulate and posses or negate these elements thus causing dukkha, or unsatisfactoriness, suffering.

 

Ragu:

"6. What happens to unenlightened beings when they die, with regard to psychic body(thoughts, feelings etc) ? Do they recognize themselves as separate entities ?"

 

The unenlighten beings remain in the cylce of birht and death, which means the continue to perpetuate the stream of rising and ceasing conditioned mind states.

 

Do they recognize themselves as seperate beings when they die? Unfortunatelt yes, thats why they keep contiuing on in the cycle. The problem is individule self-identity. The illusion od self.

 

Ragu:

"As per my personal experience I am not able to get beyond the state of awareness or the state of witnessing my own thoughts. I would be iterested in Buddhist practises of meditation as well."

 

I don't think I can elaborate on this question too much...I am not really realized in the subtler areas of meditation. There are many different techniques for meditation according to many different schools of Buddhism. I like mindfulness of breath meditation... but if you wanted an explaination on how it works (its quite simple) I would refer you to literature written about it by adepts.

 

I hope these answers to your questions can at least be a begining to a good discussion on this topic. I know my answers are incomplete. I lack a lot of time to write more in-depth...hopefuly others can add thier thoughts.

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Hare Krishna,

 

Refreshing to hear about new way of thinking in Buddhism. I am sure now this thought(language constraints) of deathless element is very similar to Brahman concept of Adi Shankara.

 

I am not sure I understand it fully, but I will try to explore into dependent origination idea.

 

As for time, is it not an abstract idea of mind used to observe naturally occuring phenomenon like motion of matter and transformation of matter. So deathless element is something like eternal element, only for eternal objects time is irrelevant.

 

I understand Buddha was talking about subjective experiences and so were you, but there is always objective explanation as well for everything.

 

Does Buddhism consider matter and objects as reality(in that they exist as separate entities) or as just illusion ?

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I have been wanting to post up something explaining the Dependent Origination idea. Sorry it took me so long. I found a very good explaination of it in a book I was reading and thought I would post it because it does a better jod of explaining Dependent Origination (or The Chain Of Dependent Causation as the author calls it) than I could. Here it goes:

 

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paticcha-samuppada-from "Buddha" by Karen Armstrong.

 

"One of the most frequent subjects of Buddhist meditation was what was called the Chain of Dependent Causation (Paticcha-samupada)... The Chain traces the life cycle of a sentient being through twelve conditioned and conditioning links, illustrating the transitory nature of our lives and showing how each person is perpetually becoming something else.

On [1] ignorance depends {2} kamma [karma]; on kamma depends [3] consciousness; on consciousness depends [4] name and form; on name and from depends [5] the sense organs; on these sense organs depends [6] contact; on contact depends [7] sensation; on sensation depends [8] desire; on desire depends [9] attachment; on attachment depends [10] existence; on existence depends [11] birth; on birth depends [12] dukkha; old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, misery, grief and despair.

 

This chain became central to Buddhist teaching, but is not easy to understand. Those who find it daunting can find comfort from the fact that the Buddha once rebuked a bhikku who claimed to find it easy. It should be regarded as a metaphor, which seeks to explain how a person can be reborn when, as the Buddha was...to conclude, there was no Self to persist from one life to another. What was it that was born again? Is there a law which links rebirth with dukkha?

The terms used in the Chain are rather obscure. “Name and form,” for example, was simply a Pali idiom for a “person”; “consciousness” (vinnana) is not the totality of a person’s thoguths and feelings, but a sort of ethereal substance, the last idea or impulse of a dying human being, which has been conditioned by all the kamma [karma] of his or her life. This “consciousness” becomes the germ of a new “name and form” in the womb of its mother. The personality of this embryo is conditioned by the quality of the dying “consciousness’ of its predecessor. Once the fetus is linked with this “consciousness” , a new life cycle can begin, these making “contact” with the external world. This sensual contact gives rise to “sensations” or feelings, which lead to “desire”, the most powerful cause of dukkha. Desire leads to attachments which prevent our liberation and enlightenment, and which doom us to a new “existence,” a new birth and further sorrow, sickness, grief and death.

...Was this final, dying “consciousness” that passes into a new “name and form” an eternal, constant entity? Would the same person live again and again? Yes and no. The Buddha did not believe the “consciousness” was the kind of permanent, eternal Self sought out by yogins, but saw it as a last flickering energy, like a flame that leaps from one wick to another. A flame is never constant; a fire which is lit at nightfall both is and is not the fire that is still burning at daybreak.

There are no fixed entities in the Chain. Each link depends upon another and leads directly to something else..."

 

_________

 

 

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Hare Krishna,

 

Thankyou for the post. I also wentthrough certain Buddhist sites. There also explanation was pretty good on dependent origination. One example which I liked is the flame of a candle, its wick and wax.

 

 

The terms used in the Chain are rather obscure. “Name and form,” for example, was simply a Pali idiom for a “person”; “consciousness” (vinnana) is not the totality of a person’s thoguths and feelings, but a sort of ethereal substance, the last idea or impulse of a dying human being, which has been conditioned by all the kamma [karma] of his or her life.

 

 

This is indeed very interesting.

 

Pali Vinnana = Consciousness = May be Sanskrit Vijnana

 

Sanskrit meaning of Vijnana:

 

http://www.sanskrit.org/Sanskrit/sanskritterms.htm

 

vijnana–derived from the prefix vi added to the noun jnana. The prefix vi added to a noun tends to diminish or invert the meaning of a word. If jnana is spiritual knowledge, vijnana is practical or profane knowledge. Sometimes vijnana and jnana are used together in the sense of knowledge and wisdom.

 

Just clarifying one that

 

in Buddhism Consciousness = Vinnana = Sanskrit Vijnana

 

in Hinduism or Vedic religion

Consciousness = CHIT = Jnana = Wisdom = Awareness = Right knowledge. This is how Hindus use the word consciousness.

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