Is Prabhupada a messiah independent from the tradition???

[Guest guest]

Reconciling the Philosophy and the Predecessor Examples

by Madhavananda das

 

I have reviewed the recent document, "The Prominent Link: A Response by the Sastric Advisory Council," with keen interest. In this document, some of ISKCON's leading scholars have expertly examined a certain controversial presentation on guru-tattva, reviewing it through the eyes of the teachings of the foundational texts of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.

 

Their expertise in presenting the well-known key passages from the writings of the six Gosvamis is commendable, and their strict adherence to the tradition of pancaratra is evident. They have also emphasized the glory of Srila Prabhupada in terms of his connection with the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya, explaining his empowerment for world-wide preaching as a consequence of the boundless mercy received through his predecessors in guru-parampara, which is a pleasant surprise in a socio-philosophical scenario in which he is sometimes practically elevated to the position of a messiah independent from the tradition.

 

Theoretically speaking, there is no challenge for their presentation. However, there is another aspect which cannot be neglected, and which has been commonly pointed out by the advocates of the Prabhupada-centered approach both diksa and siksa-wise. This aspect, virtually neglected in the presentation of the SAC, is the guru-parampara presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his disciples.

 

In his Bhagavad-gita As It Is, Srila Prabhupada presents the following succession (given from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu downwards): (1) Lord Caitanya, (2) Rupa (Svarupa, Sanatana), (3) Raghunatha, Jiva, (4) Krishnadasa, (5) Narottama, (6) Visvanatha, (7) (Baladeva) Jagannatha, (8) Bhaktivinoda, (9) Gaurakisora, (10) Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. This is commonly accepted as the parampara of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya-Sarasvata tradition.

 

A historical examination of the parampara above leaves no doubt over the fact that in this presentation of guru-parampara, diksa-connections are few and far between. It is well known that (1) Sri Caitanya never gave diksa to anyone. (2) Rupa Gosvami received diksa from Sanatana Gosvami; of Svarupa, there is no information. (3) Raghunatha received diksa from Yadunandana Acarya; Jiva received diksa from Rupa.

 

(4) Krishnadas has not clearly mentioned his diksa-guru, though some have suggested Raghunatha Bhatta. (5) Narottama received diksa from Lokanatha Gosvami. (6) Visvanatha received diksa from Radharamana Cakravarti, who was in the third generation in the diksa-parampara from Narottama Das; there was a gap of roughly one hundred years between their births.

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radharamana Das Gosvami; Jagannatha received diksa from Jagadananda Gosvami (viz. Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidana). There was a gap of roughly one hundred years between the two. (8) Bhaktivinoda received diksa from Vipina Vihari Gosvami. (9) Gaurakisora received diksa in Santipura (according to some, from Nandakisora Gosvami).

 

This is the guru-parampara presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura from Sri Caitanya downwards. As one may easily observe, there is no consistent diksa-lineage in this presentation. Moreover, what is perhaps more astonishing, and has been occasionally pointed out by the proponents of the ritvik theory, is that there was no physical link, neither diksa nor siksa, between Narottama and Visvanatha, nor between Visvanatha / Baladeva and Jagannatha. It is not a far-fetched idea to state that this lends support to a theory in which the guru-parampara may descend even without the physical proximity of either the initiator or the instructor.

 

Again, on the other hand, it is evident that the practical application of the theory of the descent of guru-parampara over the decades after the disappearance of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati has been clearly characterized with pancaratrika mantra-diksa as the means of delineating and continuing the succession.

 

It is my hope that the reflections above would spark further discussions among the learned assembly of devotees, and that the two apparently contradictory considerations, namely the writings of the Gosvamis and the guru-parampara presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, could be conclusively reconciled.

 

[Guest guest]

no.

 

jai sri krishana!

 

[Guest guest]

One should likely ask what are the relationships between these exalted souls in the spiritual world. That may well be the most important bond in the Bhagavata parampara.

[raga 0]

 

One should likely ask what are the relationships between these exalted souls in the spiritual world. That may well be the most important bond in the Bhagavata parampara.

 

 

An interesting proposal. Somebody wants to answer the question? The answer is not exactly to be found in their writings.

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

 

I have not been following any discussions regarding Guru parampara on this forum, or indeed on the internet.

 

Is there something new that has come out, in regard to these discussions? I would be interested to see that. I have downloaded the prominent link document and i plan to read it.

 

Be that as it may, in Saraswati Jayasree by Sundarananda Vidyavinode, he tells that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur arranged for his disciples Jagadisa (Bhakti Pradip Tirtha), Vasanta babu, and Manmatha babu to receive the gayatri diksa ('Upanayana'), in his house in Calcutta in 1910, in a ceremony performed by Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati. Those three received Brahman Gayatri, Guru Gayatri, and Gauranga Gayatri from Saraswati Thakur. This was just prior to Srila Saraswati Thakur going to the debate in Midnapore where he presented his lecture about Brahmanas and Vaishnavas. It is clear that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur guided Srila Saraswati Goswami in the presentation he gave at Midnapore, and moreover that at this time Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was no longer following Bipin Bihari Goswami. These events are widely known, as you know.

 

 

Muralidhar das,

SCSMath Sydney

(leaving for India with my family in four days. We are on our way to Sri Nabadwip Dham and the Ratha-yatra of Lord Jagannatha)

 

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

I have been working on a new edition of "Sri Sri Premadhama Deva Stotram" by Srila Sridhar Maharaj. I am taking it to India to get final editing of the manuscript.

 

In the commentaries to verses, lectures by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and other Acharyas have been presented. Two important verses that relate to the issue of Guru parampara are

http://www.mandala.com.au/gaura/prema61.html

which discusses the parampara of Srila Raghunatha das Goswami

and verse 51

http://www.mandala.com.au/gaura/prema51.html

which discusses Syamananda Prabhu and Narottama Thakura

 

Verse 61 is below

 

 

 

 

<center>

Verse 61

 

yamunambu-krishna-radhikali-keli-mandalam

 

Vyakta-gupta-dripta-tripta-bhangi-madanakulam

 

gudha-divya-marma-moda-murcchana-camatkaram

 

prema-dhama-devam eva naumi gaura-sundaram

</center>

In the sacred waters of the Yamuna at Vrindabana, Lord Krishna and Srimati Radhika, along with their dearmost cowherd maiden friends, enjoy beautiful and varied water-sport pastimes. These divine pastimes are sometimes revealed, sometimes hidden, sometimes brilliant, and sometimes harmonious. The pastimes of the Lord in different moods, with loving expressions of relationship, create different types of divine hankering for the devotees. The sweet song of this most confidential spiritual treasure that astounds the entire universe was distributed by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I fall at the feet of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the golden volcano of divine love.

 

 

<hr>

Sambandha, abhideya, prayojana.

 

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Who is Srila Raghunath Das Goswami's guru, who is it really?

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: It is a complicated case. By the will of God it is transferred. When he was a married man himself, Raghunatha Das Goswami took diksa from Yadunandana Acharya, a grhasta (married man). Then he went to Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu handed him over to Swarup Damodar. We may take Yadunandana as an ordinary siksa guru, vartmapradarsaka guru. The beginner, the canvasser. Something like a ritvik representative. Not the guru proper. But a representative has come as Yadunandana and has helped Das Goswami in the right way. Otherwise Srila Raghunatha Das Goswami could not be attracted by the charming personality of Mahaprabhu.

 

 

Raghunatha Das Goswami approached Mahaprabhu, and Mahaprabhu himself we may take as Radharani. He is Krishna in the garb of Radharani. Raghunatha Das Goswami came there to meet Mahaprabhu in Puri, and Radharani (Mahaprabhu) placed him under the charge of Swarup Damodar, Lalitadevi. He handed him over to Lalita devi.

 

 

But we trace that Das Goswami's tendency is always towards Mahaprabhu. Although Mahaprabhu deputed Swarup Damodar as his guru, again Das Goswami approached Mahaprabhu and told him "I can't understand why you have taken me, snatched me from my family. Give definite directions to me." Then Mahaprabhu told him something in a nutshell. "Do this, and don't do this." He told Das Goswami, "What I don't know, Swarup Damodar knows it for certain, elaborately. So, I have rightly deputed him to train you on my behalf." So again he put Das Goswami in the hands of Swarup Damodar. Then of course Das Goswami went on with his bhajana in a very stern manner.

 

 

After the disappearance of Mahaprabhu, Das Goswami left there, thinking, "I would like to have a view of Vrindavan and then I will try to finish my life. No more prospect is to be seen in my future life." But when he came to Vrindavan he found Mahaprabhu present there in Rupa and Sanatan. His plans disappeared. "Mahaprabhu is here!"

 

 

He was especially attracted to Rupa Goswami. His internal connection, his sympthetic chord, he found with Rupa. Thereby we are taught that, passing through so many ups and downs in the life of a sadhaka, he at last comes to Rupa and there he thinks that he has reached the desired station. Mahaprabhu named this the Rupanuga Sampradaya. What is this Rupanuga sampradaya? The first disciple of Mahaprabhu is Rupa Goswami - although Rupa Goswami took his formal initiation from Sanatan Goswami. But Mahaprabhu met Rupa first, and secondly he met Sanatan. So, Rupa-Sanatan, and not Sanatan-Rupa.

 

 

Sanatan is the elder. But we are saying "Rupa-Sanatan", because the first recognition by Mahaprabhu was of Rupa. Then Sanatan next. So, "Rupa-Sanatan".

 

 

Now, what is the real meaning of Rupa Sampradaya? You are to mark it very attentively. madhura rasa is the total rasa and the most intense of all rasas. It is all accommodating. Twenty four hours engagement of service with Krishna is only possible in madhura rasa. For there is a possibility of reaction, that tendency of seeking leisure, tiredness, in all other rasas, even vatsalya rasa. Sometimes the father or the mother may think, "I am too much tired, I shall do the arrangement of feeling a little after." But in madhura rasa there is no reaction.

 

 

The difference between Rupa Manjari and Lalita and the sakhis - these are of course things of the very higher order - we should not have the audacity to enter into these subtle points - still, when that question has come to me about Raghunatha Das, then by divine arrangement I am going to say that when Radha Govinda are alone in union, the sakhis of the higher order do not approach that place but the manjaris can go. The junior sevakas, they can go to perform any service necessary there, because due to their lesser age they are allowed. And the higher friends of Radharani keep at some respectable distance. So when Radha-Govinda are alone in union the highest quality of rasa is to be found in their lila and that is approachable for the juniors. That, is for the manjaris, not for the sakhis.

 

 

So the highest attainment is to be located in Rupa, the leader of that group. That junior group who has got the special advantage of the special service in that stage. So, Rupanuga Sampradaya.

 

 

Wherever we are we shall have to accept that that is the acme of our fulfillment. That point. And for Das Goswami there was already a formal guru. First we may be attracted by the highest peak of the Himalayas. Then when approaching, we see so many other beautiful peaks. So we are attracted by Krishna in general, then from Krishna, we come to a proper Vaishnava, a proper location according to the necessity of my innate nature. In this way, from Mahaprabhu to Swarup Damodar, and with permission of Lalita he comes to Rupa, and the point of Rupa, that is the place of our highest attainment. And that has been shown in the lila of Das Goswami Prabhu.

 

 

Das Goswami has been accepted as the Acharya of Prayojana tattva. What is our highest necessity, that is in his hand. Das Goswami is the proyojana acharya. But the whole thing must be approached with the mood of divinity. Where there is the plane of dedication and nothing of enjoyment, no spirit of pleasure seeking or enjoyment, when there is service to the divinity to the extreme, it reaches the zenith there with Sri Rupa Manjari ..

 

 

The Acharya of sambandha (knowledge of the divine relationship to Sri Krishna), we are told, is Sanatan Goswami. He has given us a graphic description of the environment of the spiritual world. "Who am I?" Sanatan Goswami put this question to Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu gradually gave the description of everything, in detail. "What is what? Who are you?" - jivera swarup hoi, krsnera nitya das. In a nutshell, in one word, you are the slave to Krishna.

 

 

It is not a very easy thing to get the service Krishna. So, "jivera swarup hoy". "Nitya das" means "born slave, born servant." That is slave. That was the clarion call in a high voice that was declared first, "jivera swarup hoy," with such great pride, magnanimous pride. Such a dignified position the jiva soul has got. But now in the garb of a master he is the slave of maya, of ajnana, of ignorance; but his real position, his innate position, is that Krishna has got his Autocratic power over the jiva soul. So fortunate they are. So very fortunate. Such a close connection with Krishna the jiva has got in an innate stage. "Jivera swarup hoi krsnera nitya das krsnera tatastha shakti, bheda bheda prakash". But at present it is not found in the soul. It is in his prospect that he is such, but in his present position the soul comes from the line of demarcation, the marginal potency, and so his entrance into maya has been possible. krsnera tatasta sakti bhedabeda prakash. Adaptability towards both sides is within the soul. tatastha sakti bheda bheda prakash, something common and something different. In this way, Mahaprabhu began teaching Sanatan Goswami. And Sanatan Goswami put question after question and he got Mahaprabhu's answers. Then he in turn gave out the conception about the environment and the position of the jiva soul and Bhagavan. He taught "Who is who". This is sambandha.

 

 

Rupa Goswami generally deals with abhidheya, the means to the end. How to attain our desired position? That is abhidheya. What comes naturally from the Veda, from the srauta (revealed scriptures), what flows naturally: "what do you want us to do, oh Lord?" That is abidheya. What is the natural implication of the sruti (message of the scriptures) that has been given to us by Krishna? That is abidheya. So Sri Rupa Goswami is the abidheya acharya, teaching the means to the end, sadhana. Rupa Goswami has elaborately given the way forward and described how to get there. A step by step process.

 

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango' tha bhajana-kriya

 

tato' nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

 

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

 

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

"In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and then attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually spiritual emotions manifest and intensify, then finally there is an awakening of divine love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead."

 

(B-r-s, 1.4.15-16)

 

 

The gradual process is to take us to enter into our home. Prema sneha mana pranaya raga anuraga bhava mahabhava. This has been graphically described by Rupa Goswami, in detail: "This is the way and in this plane do this, and then the next step is this, and then the next step is this, and in this way, you can come to the highest". That has been given by Rupa Goswami. The means to the end. How to come to the desired goal.

 

 

And prayojana-tattva has been given by Das Goswami because he has clearly and boldly asserted that our necessity is not so much with Krishna as with His highest servitor, Radharani. Because generally we come from tatasta sakti and we have got a limited prospect. And our limited prospect to its highest degree will take us to the highest servitor, the eternal servitor in madhura rasa, Srimate Radharani. Das Goswami declared boldly, "Krishna, I do not want you if I do not find Radharani there. I want rather to be in the service of Radharani".

 

 

The devotee is feeling, "Oh Krishna, I cannot really give you the supply of the highest type of service. So, what is the necessity of going in the front rank? I was wandering in the street just the other day, and I have got such audacity that I will come nearest to you, and venture to render service to You? No! There are permanent servitors there in your abode and how high they are! And what a high quality service they are rendering! I must admit that, if I am really liberated and really I am graced. I must understand my real position. I must not cross the original and higher servitors. That will be a fault in me and that will be suicidal. That will defeat its own object. So, my highest goal will be to help the real and eternal servitor who is taking that grave charge of serving you in a high way. That is the right thing for me. And also our necessity is that we are in the serving group. So the serving master is our group-leader. Naturally I must accomodate my aspirations with the serving leader. I am not hankering after Your direct service but the service of the leader servitor. I must try to earn the confidence of her or him who is the leader. Then if I do this I am seeking and searching for your proper service, Krishna. Otherwise, it would be self-seeking in some form or other (selfishness)."

 

 

So, Das Goswami boldly declared that Radha-dasyam is the highest end, highest attainment. That should be our highest end, the summum bonnum. Radhadasyam. In Krishna's abode there is Radha-dasyam, or Yashoda-dasyam in Vatsalya rasa, or Nanda-dasya. The leader of every camp, the highest leader, our real concern should be to be serving them. Our attention should be there. That is what Das Goswami told. And then gradually we come to Rupa, the leader of the juniors. This has been clearly explained in Das Goswami's sloka.

 

 

asa-bharair amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit

 

kalo mayati-gamitah kila sampratam hi

 

tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me

 

pranair vrajena ca varoru bakarinapi

 

For me somehow the present moment is flooded by a nectar ocean of many hopes. If You do not give Your mercy, then of what use to me are this life, the land of Vraja, and Sri Krishna, the enemy of Baka? (Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali, verse 102)

 

 

When Prabhupada (Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami) used to explain this stanza, this sloka, his figure was transformed into something like a phantom. "asa-bharair amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit, kalo mayati-gamitah kila sampratam hi, tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me, pranair vrajena ca varoru bakarinapi."

 

 

In this stanza Das Goswami is appealing to Radharani, "For a long time I am cherishing the hope, this sweetest hope, amrta-sindhu-mayaih, from faraway I am fostering such a hope, that I shall come to serve you, Radharani. I am hoping I shall get the privilege of serving you. Anyhow, I am dragging myself forward with this infinite and sweetest hope, that I shall get the chance of serving you. That I shall get the service of your divine feet. But now, I think I have come to the last verge of my hope. No longer can I contain myself. No longer can I live. l cannot breathe any more. The last moment or last circumference of my hope, I have reached, my master. If you won't be satisfied with me and accept me then I can no longer stand or sustain my life. Anyhow, somehow, I have dragged myself to the last moment of my life. l have come to the final conclusion, that I feel this way: of what use is this Vraja, what is the use of my life, if I cannot reach this, my sweetest goal, my dream? What is the use of my life any further? Dragging, dragging, dragging on my life. What shall I do with this great Vraja dham of such a renowned acquaintance? Oh beautiful feet! Even what should I do with Krishna? I don't want them. The whole concentration of my bhajan is this. You, Oh Srimate Radharani, will serve Krishna. You have got that capacity, it is natural. And if I serve you, if I utilize myself to serve you so that by service through you the service may pass to Krishna, then that will be the highest attainment of my fortune." Das Goswami declared it. Das Goswami. And still even now, that is the highest point of our achievement for the whole Gaudiya Sampradaya. Das Goswami is the Proyojana Acharya.

[raga 0]

In the text, the passage:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radharamana Das Gosvami

 

 

Should obviously read:

 

 

(7) Baladeva received diksa from Radha Damodara Das Gosvami

 

 

Sorry for the mistake, I wonder how it crept in. I must have been absorbed in thoughts of Visvanath.

[raga 0]

 

Is there something new that has come out, in regard to these discussions? I would be interested to see that.

 

 

Murali,

 

Nothing drastic really. I just wrote the bit above in curiosity to see ISKCON's approach to the topic.

 

Interesting, your note on Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's giving also the Guru-mantra and Gaura-mantra in the presence of Bhaktivinod. Did he get them from Bhaktivinod himself, or where? Narayan Maharaj writes in "Acarya Kesari" something to the extent that Kesava Maharaj was the first one to receive guru-mantra from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

 

I still haven't found a simple, clear-cut and brief answer on how the parampara can descend with gaps in between the persons, whether initiators or instructors. Would you condense your view in one paragraph or so? I do have interest in the topic, but not enough to go through dozens, if not hundreds of pages of text in trying to figure out a simple answer to a simple question.

 

Good journey and have a safe trip.

[Guest guest]

Sri Bhaktisiddhanta is said to have received Gaura and Guru mantras from Sri Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji.

 

Regarding the parampara. They say that the essence is to follow to the teachings of the Gaudiya sampradaya. Initiation is considered a formality more or less, but the teachings and to follow them is all-important.

 

Gaudiya Math claims to have a diksa lineage from Srimati Jahnava Devi, while it in fact comes from Sri Advaita Acharya according to Sri Sundarananda Vidyavinoda, the person who wrote most of the English books and articles that were published in Bhaktisiddhanta´s name. At least so I have heard.

But, while claiming to have a continuous parampara from one of Sri Chaitanya´s followers, Bhaktisiddhanta and his followers didn´t emphasize that parampara. Instead he made a list with some of the most famous Gaudiya teachers, the "bhagavata parampara".

He didn´t seem to care about the external things either, such as wearing a particular shape of tilaka. Traditionally, Nityanandaparivara has baas-patra shaped tilaka, Advaitaparivara uses banyan-leaf shaped tilaka, Gadadhara-parivara, the U-shaped one, etc.

The tilaka of Bhaktisiddhanta most closely resembles that of Narottama-parivara, which has a tulasi-leaf shaped tilaka (the part on the nose), with two vertical lines of course.

[ramanujadasan 0]

Oops, I wasn´t logged in. But that was me who posted the above on Bhagavataparampara, etc.

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

 

I will try and put a brief paragraph together. But time is short for me. I leave for India in 48 hours. A paragraph or two, I may manage. But I think the life story of Srila Raghunatha Das Goswami is a example that is most clear, about the chain of teachers as given by Srila Saraswati Thakura.

 

In fact if you read in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Kaviraj Goswami actually has Das Goswami telling Yadunandana Acharya "I will tell the priest to come back and do his service", but then Das Goswami goes the other way and goes to Mahaprabhu in Puri. I don't like to give a commentary on what happened. Kaviraj himself makes it quite clear. Who is Das Goswami's Guru? It is a complicated case, but then he find his Guru, there is no doubt. And where did he find his final shelter.... Sri Rupa Manjari .

 

Murali

 

[Guest guest]

Madhava,

Muralidhar here,

 

Sorry but I dont have time for writing today. An unexpected change of plan. I'm leaving for India on the first flight tomorrow morning.

 

There is this section in the Bhagavata lecture by srila bhaktivinode thakura, however.

 

"The souls of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyåsa was assisted by Nårada and Brahmå."

 

Pretty clear to me.

 

here is the full paragraph:

 

<hr>

The Bhågavata teaches us that God gives us truth

and He gave it to Vyåsa, when we earnestly seek for it. Truth is eternal and

unexchausted. The soul receives a revelation when it is anxious for it. The souls

of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyåsa was

assisted by Nårada and Brahmå. Our ½astras, or in other words, books of thought

do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. No book is without

its errors. God’s revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and

preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of

11th skandha of the Bhågavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but

it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is

converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New

revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its

original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors,

however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the

wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyåsa was not

satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puråºas and

composed in the Mahåbharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his

labors. It told him from inside “ No, Vyåsa! you can’t rest contented with the

erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages

of by-gone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store

of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the

Fountain-head of truth where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any

kind. Vyåsa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to

do so. Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most

valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived

and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths

which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the

Bhågavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the ½astras and not the words.

The Bhågavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love.

 

 

[raga 0]

 

In fact if you read in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta, Kaviraj Goswami actually has Das Goswami telling Yadunandana Acharya "I will tell the priest to come back and do his service", but then Das Goswami goes the other way and goes to Mahaprabhu in Puri. I don't like to give a commentary on what happened. Kaviraj himself makes it quite clear. Who is Das Goswami's Guru? It is a complicated case, but then he find his Guru, there is no doubt. And where did he find his final shelter.... Sri Rupa Manjari .

 

 

Yes. Still, it is fascinating how Das Gosvamipad himself approaches the matter. The fourth verse of the mangalacaran of his Vilapa Kusumanjali, which is considered his last work and the pinnacle of his aspirations.

 

<font color="darkblue">prabhur api yadunandano ca eSa

priya-yadunandana unnata-prabhAvaH |

svayam atula-kRpAmRtAbhiSekaM

mama kRtavAMs tam ahaM guruM prapadye ||4||

 

My master Yadunandana, who is dear to Lord Yadunandana, personally he bathed me in his nectarine, unprecedentedly powerful and inconceivable mercy. Unto him, guru, I surrender."</font>

 

In his mangalacaran, the author acknowledges Rupa Manjari (1-2), Rupa's blessings to Rati Manjari (3), Yadunandan Acarya (4), Sri Caitanyacandra (5), who gave him to Sri Damodara (Svarupa Damodar or Krishna), and Sanatana Gosvami (6).

 

It is fascinating that though he acknowledges them all, he only specifies Yadunandana Acarya as "guru".

 

Some consider Yadunandan Acarya a family priest without much more significance to it. Krishnadas Kaviraj, however, writes: advaita-AcAryera teGha ziSya antaraGga, AcArya-AjJAte mAne caitanya prANa-dhana -- "He was a confidential disciple of Advaita Acarya, and on the order of Acarya, Caitanya was the treasure of his life."

 

[theist 1]

Letter to: Dinesh

--

Tittenhurst

31 October, 1969

69-10-31

 

My Dear Dinesh,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated October 21, 1969 along with a contribution of $25. I have already acknowledged receipt of your new record. Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.

Regarding your second question about Sanjaya, he was a student of Vyasadeva, and by the mercy of Vyasadeva he was able to receive the message of the conversation of Krishna-Arjuna. Thus Sanjaya was able to speak to Dhrtarastra about the conversation on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra.

 

 

Regarding your final question, the marginal potency means internal potency. But because the marginal potency sometimes comes within the external position, therefore, in spite of its being internal potency it is turned to marginal potency. This is stated in Visnu Purana: Any potency of Krishna is spiritual energy, but due to varieties of actions a section is called marginal potency or external potency.

Please offer my blessings to your good wife, Krishna Devi, and daughter, Visnu Arati. I hope this will meet you all in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[krsna 3]

 

Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa. All these personalities, however, were stalwart devotees sent by the Lord to assist the progress of the Sankirtana movement. Neither SAC members nor Dhira Govinda das have offered this clause, which could add additional weight to both arguments.

 

Great personalities are overwhelmed with Krsna prema; do they need to accept formalities? Lord Caitanya requested Haridas Thakur to reduce the number of rounds he was doing near the time of his departure. Is this not a contradiction to His own teaching? A pure devotee of the Lord is always under the protection of the Lord's spiritual energy; his activities are not subject to material contamination. This point was not emphasized in the arguments.

 

Few devotees new to ISKCON and other Gaudiya sampradayas are such "Mahabhagavatas and stalwart devotees" who, appearing in the material world to assist the mission of Lord Caitanya, need not undergo "formal diksa".

 

Comparing a newcomer's initiation to the "siksa link" of great personalities offends the service of the Lord. When a gulf separates great personalities and ourselves, formal initiation through a Vaisnava guru is necessary. This basic rule of ISKCON shall remain as long as neophyte devotees come to take shelter of Krsna.

 

Dhira Govinda does not oppose the formal initiation system. However, some future devotee may propose Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja as his "Prominent Link". Mastering the words of Bhagavad-gita, one could argue that Sri Krsna Himself is his "Prominent Link". Sri Krsna has been our guru (and so-called "Prominent Link" in English word jugglery) residing in our heart as Paramatma and guiding us every day. However, we don't feel this every minute and every second.

 

In the so called "Prominent Links", one may ignore service to greater Vaisnavas. In other words, if Dhira Govinda removes the ifs and buts, there is a tendency of his work to lead to impersonalism.

 

Dhira Govinda prabhu ought also to look at other sampradayas. There can be exceptions available in paramparas, but exceptions have been for exceptional devotees, not a general rule for a big organization like ISKCON.

 

Formal diksa initiation is necessary for neophytes to advance gradually to devotional service. Following the basic set of rules in ISKCON can be easy. However, to act in the platform of a great bhakta, one needs gradual training from a senior devotee.

 

The person undergoing initiation has to decide whether he is on the platform and philosophical conviction of great personalities like Jagannatha das Babaji or Srila Sanatana Goswami, or if he is far away from Krsna-prema, addicted to sense gratification. Using this logic, the candidate will look forward to diksa initiation.

 

To be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is very great, but to be a grand-disciple is even better. In Bharatiya culture, grandparents offer more love and affection to grandsons and granddaughters than they offer to their own sons and daughters. The obvious connection of any grand-disciple of Prabhupada is also loving spiritually.

 

 

[theist 1]

when copying and pasting a full article like that please let everyone know the author.

 

Thanks

[stonehearted 0]

god: Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa.

 

Babhru: I'm not sure that's what he said. He said that many of the connections in the guru-parampara are not by formal diksa, but that's not news to most of us. That's not the same as saying that they never took formal diksa. I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that any of these devotees never accepted formal diksa. If I missed something, please clue me in.

[theist 1]

Here again is Prabhupada's clear statement on the issue.

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna."

 

How was Arjuna a disciple of Krsna? Is their some record of Arjuna being offically initiated by Krsna? Or was it Arjuna's sincere surrender to Krsna on the chariot before the battle?

[stonehearted 0]

This is one statement in a letter, which had a specific context. SIt would be intersting--probebly even helpful--to see that letter he was responding to. In fact, Srila Prabhupada also said other things, some quite different from this. Mahaprabhu's instructions to Sanatan on the process of devotional service begin with taking shelter of a guru, accepting initiation from him, etc. All these things need to be examined together, along with the contexts in which they were said. I presume that this is what Dhira Govinda did in writing his book, at least to some extent, and what the Shastric Advisory Council did in preparing their response.

 

I don't make these comments to rebut your point, or even to minimize it, but to try to keep the complex nature of the issue in front. I certainly don't advocate that anyone take a cheap initiaion from someone in whom they don't have the requisite faith, just to make a show of being in the club. One of my old, dear friends recently encouraged another friend's husband, who had been practicing for some time but who "had no guru," to take initiation from one of ISKCON's official gurus. Every time it comes up, I let her know my displeasure in no uncertain terms. (We've known each other for 34 years, so we can blast each other from time to time without hurting our relationship.) On the other hand, I believe there are a couple of ofiical ISKCON gurus who may be willing to offer initiation to devotees to connect them with Srila Prabhupada. One I know of gave second initiation to some close friends who had Harinama from Prabhupada, with the understanding that he is not their guru, but Prabhupada is. He did it pretty much as a priestly function. There's another I know of who gives initiation strictly as a connecion with Srila Prabhupada and who does not act as guru. I've met this devotees briefly on a couple of occasions, but those who know him better than I do attest to his scholarship, devotion to Srila Prabhupada, and his tireless preaching. I think this indicates there may be others, as well. I won't name either of them here, but anyone who wants to contact them may ask me privately.

 

 

 

[theist 1]

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

 

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

[raga 0]

 

god: Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa.

 

Babhru: I'm not sure that's what he said. He said that many of the connections in the guru-parampara are not by formal diksa, but that's not news to most of us. That's not the same as saying that they never took formal diksa. I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that any of these devotees never accepted formal diksa. If I missed something, please clue me in.

 

 

I sent the following to Chakra:

 

 

In his response to my original write-up, Ramagopal Uppaluri has stated:

 

"Madhavananda das has proposed that some devotees in our disciplic succession never underwent formal diksa. All these personalities, however, were stalwart devotees sent by the Lord to assist the progress of the Sankirtana movement."

 

However, I have never proposed such a thing. Having studied the history of the acaryas rather extensively, I know it very well that all of them have accepted diksa. I have even specifically mentioned the names of most of the diksa-gurus of the acaryas in my article. I cannot understand how Ramagopal arrived at such a conclusion based on what I wrote.

 

As an amendment to the original text of mine, it should be noted that the diksa-guru of Baladeva was obviously Radha Damodara Das Goswami of Syamananda Parivar, not Radha Ramana Das Gosvami. My apologies for the unintended slip.

 

 

I have no clues based on what logic he draw such a conclusion!

[raga 0]

 

What we see in the example of Arjuna and Krsna IS INTIATION.

 

He became submissive and surrender to Krsna and submitted questions to Him asking his doubts to be removed. Krsna then imparted transcendental knowledge. That IS INITIATION.

 

 

The problem comes when you present such a statement without reconciling it with the acaryas' clear definition of diksa as the reception of mantra from the guru.

 

This is what I meant with "messiah independent from the tradition".

[Guest guest]

this is muralidhar in kolkata,

 

sorry i will just use lower case but this keyboard is useless

 

---

i have done an extensive amount of research on this matter and i am in the process of getting more detailed information so i can publish all the information about the sampradaya of srila bhakti siddhanta saraswati and his successors.

 

there is sufficient evidence to establish the fact that srila saraswati thakur, srila bhaktivinode thakura, srila jagannatha babaji etc. all accepted formal initiation.

 

sripad bhakti pradip tirtha maharaj received diksa from srila bhaktivinode thakur, siksa from srila gaurkishore babaji (who sent him to bhaktivinode) and he also received brahma gayatri and guru gayatri etc from srila bhakti siddhanta saraswati in 1910, with srila bhaktivinode thakur sitting there at the ceremony.

 

bhakti pradip tirtha tells us in one book, published in 1945, i think, that srila saraswati goswamui received formal diksa from srila gaurakishoire babaji. bhakti pradip tirtha was in a position to know about the facts. he met and associated with all these devotes for five years before gaurkishore babaji left this world.

 

also, interesetingly, he is the older brother of anantavasudeva prabhu, who became acharya of the gaudiya math after the disappearance of prabhupada srila saraswati thakur.

 

the issue of srila bhaktivinode thakur's relationship with his initiating guru bipin bihari goswami is something i plan to clarify, that is, i plan to get some old books and so forth and publish the information in those books, articles, etc. regarding the relationship between srila bhaktivionde thakura and his initiating guru. suffice to say, his guru publicly cut the connection in 1919; indeed, it is likely that srila bhaktivinode thakur had separated himself from bipin bihari goswami before this. the fact that he departed from the service of his diksa guru while following very faithfully his siksa guru, srila jagannatha das babaji maharaj, is something that is supported by scripture and by examples from history in the gaudiya sampradaya.

 

syamananda prabhu also changed his connection and became a disciple of sri jiva goswami. also, srila raghunath das goswami left his diksa guru and went to mahaprabhu, who put him in the care of swarup damodar goswami. mahaprabhu said that it was good that das goswami had left that sitation he was leaving behind. i don't like to say much about this. but it is there in the caitanya caritamrta.

 

a fallen servant of the vaishnavas,

muralidhar das

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't see a problem Madhavananda as I wasn't refering to intiation as mantra but rather the imparting and reception of transcendental knowledge. I don't know about mantras. Do they offer something more than transcendental knowledge of ones relationship with Krsna?

 

"tad viddhi praëipätena

paripraçnena sevayä

upadekñyanti te jïänaà

jïäninas tattva-darçinaù

 

SYNONYMS

tat—that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi—try to understand; praëipätena—by approaching a spiritual master; paripraçnena—by submissive inquiries; sevayä—by the rendering of service; upadekñyanti—they will initiate; te—you; jïänam—into knowledge; jïäninaù—the self-realized; tattva—of the truth; darçinaù—seers.

 

TRANSLATION

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhägavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmaà tu säkñäd bhagavat-praëétam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. Not only should one hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.-Bg 4.34

 

 

Arjuna approached Krsna, surrendered, asked pertinent questions in a submissive mood, rendered service and Krsna imparted transcendental knowledge. Isn't that intiation or diksa, the process for receiving transcendental knowledge?

[theist 1]

that was theist. i sometimes get logged out for a reason i have yet to understand.