Priitaa 0 Report post Posted March 10, 2003 Stupid q&a. It is not very nice of you to call my story stupid, tho YOUR answer was not so great, and quite mundane. I was not the only one who found that story instructive, as it was told in class, thus many were there. I recall very clearly how well it was received by all of the assembled devotees. So maybe you are not getting the point, or don't want to. I hope the first. It makes a very good point for those who are trying to understand. Nor are we interested in India as "over there." It was not a story about India, but about Krishna and His unlimited abilities beyond our conception. Good luck. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Narayanidd 1 Report post Posted March 10, 2003 My dear vaisnavas, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. While reading I came to the following verse and purport. I feel it relates well to this topic. ch.5 text 15 nadatte kasyacit papam na caiva sukrtam vibhu ajnanenavrtam jnanam tena muhyanti jantavah Translation: Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of ignorance which covers their real knowledge. Purport: The sanskrit word vibhu means the Supreme Lord who is full of knowledge, riches, strength, fame, beauty and renunciation. He is always satisfied in Nimself, undisterbed by sinful or pious activities. He does not create a particular situation for any living entity, but the living entity, bewildered by ignorance, desires to be put into certain conditions of life, and thereby his chain of reaction begins. A living entity is, by superior nature, full of knowledge. Nevertheless, he is prone to be influenced by ignorance due to his limited power. The Lord is omnipotent, but the living entity is not. The Lord is vibhu, or omniscient, but the living entity is anu, or atomic. Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord. And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions of the particular situation which maybe desired. Being in a bewildered condition, therefore, the embodied soul identifies himself with the circumstantial material body and becomes subjugated to the temporary misery and happiness of life. The Lord is the constant companion of the living entity as Paramatma, or the Supersoul, and therefore He can understand the desires of the individual soul, as one can smell the flavor of a flower by being near it. Desire is a subtle form of conditioning for the living entity. The Lord fulfills his desire as he deserves: Man proposes and God desposes. The individual is not, therefore, omnipotent in fulfilling his desires. The Lord, however, can fulfill all desires, and Lord being neutral to everyone, does not interfere with the desires of the minute independant living entities. However, when one desires Krsna, the Lord takes special care and encourages one to desire in such away that one can attain to Him and be eternally happy. The vedic hymns therefore declare, esa u hy eva sadhu karma karayati tam yam ebhyo lokebhya unninisate. esa u evasadhu karma karayati yam adho ninisate:"The Lord engages the living entity in pious activities so that he may be elevated. The Lord engages him in impious activities so that he may go to hell." (Kausitaki Upanisad 3.8) ajno jantur aniso yam atmanah sukha-duhkhayoh isvara-prerito gacchet svargam vasv abhram eva ca "The living entity is completely dependent in his distress and happiness. By the will of the Supreme he can go to heaven ot hell, as a cloud is driven by air." Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutioally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence... Hare Krsna! Your servant, Narayani d.d. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Priitaa 0 Report post Posted March 10, 2003 Thank you Narayani d.d. You hit the nail right on the head: Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutioally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence... I have been reading a few of your posts and you tend to stick with Srila Prabhupada's highest, transcendental instructions, which is a breath of fresh air always. You are a blessing to have on these forums. :-) Thanks! Take care and Hare Krishna. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Narayanidd 1 Report post Posted March 13, 2003 Thank you for your words of incouragement! Throughout all of these discussion threads the answer always presents itself in Prabhupada's books. Most of the time I'll be doing my daily reading the later when I visit this forum my day's reading seems to apply somewhere. Srila Prabhupada just continuing his preaching!!!! Your servant, Narayani d.d. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kishalaya 0 Report post Posted March 13, 2003 Krishna knows all that is there, all that exists. If by our free will, (some part of) our future has still not been created, it does not exist, hence that which does not exist need not be known. So Krishna is All Knowing because He knows everything that can be known. That which does not exist (such as the part of future that we can create by our free will) does not have the property of being known. So even if Krishna may not know a part of our future, that does not create any fault in Him, because what He does not know --- does not exist. Simple. This argument is same as "Does Krishna know the limit to His opulences?". If He knows, then there is a limit to His opulences and if He does not know, then How is He All Knowing. The answer is same. The limit to Krishna's opulences does not exist. So the very question of its getting known does not arise. As before, what Krishna does not know, does not exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kishalaya 0 Report post Posted March 13, 2003 There is great misconception about Sri Hari's All Perfect Qualities. God creating a rock He cannot lift. Is there an inherent contradiction in the term "Omnipotent"? Western theistic science has done some hair splitting which we need not waste time on again: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/omni.htm There are various nefarious arguments like the above, some of which are: Can God make 2+2=5? Can God make an object exist and not exist at the same time? Can God make a square triangle? Answer: God can do things which have the quality of getting done! God can create things that have the quality of getting created! So: If something does not have the quality of getting done, then not being able to do it is not a defect. e.g. making 2+2=5, making square traingles. Similarly, if something does not have the quality of getting created (in simple terms, that object does not have the ability to exist), then not being able to create it not a defect. e.g. God creating a rock which he cannot lift. Sri Hari cannot be faulted for lacking the ability to create things which cannot be created because there is no such ability. Similarly Sri Hari cannot be at fault for lacking the ability to do things which cannot be done, because no such ability exists at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Priitaa 0 Report post Posted March 14, 2003 As I reread your post, it appears you are saying the same thing I am saying, tho it feels like the long route to China. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyway, if it helped someone, that's good. Those who believe God can't create things that "can't" be created, are seeing materially. There is NOTHING God can't create, even if people can't fit it into boxes and triangles. :-) This can't be understood with the mind, can't be understood thru mathematical calculations, can't be understood thru logic. This can only be understood with the heart and with the soul. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kishalaya 0 Report post Posted March 14, 2003 I see no fault in Sri Hari's Dignity if He cannot make Govardhan so heavy that He can never lift it. Since what Sri Hari cannot create, cannot exist. It makes no difference to my faith if Sri Hari can or cannot create things which cannot exist, but it makes tremendous difference to my faith if Sri Hari cannot create things which can exist. Great are the souls who have natural faith in the Lord, but for those, like me, who think whether He can create a rock that He can never lift, while trying to chant His names, it is imperative that all such buddhi doshas (defects of intelligence) be killed by proper nyaya (logic) just as Sri Hari uses His Sudarshan Chakra to kill demons. Otherwise, it should be known that (samshay) doubt is a killer of (shraddha) faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 15, 2003 My apologies, Kishalaya, as I initially misread your post. But, as mentioned, I reread it and saw you were making a similar point to mine. So my math quotes, etc., were not really in reference to you, as you were using them the right way. They are for those who choose to use them the opposite way. Do what you need to do! Thanks. YS, Prtha dd Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 23, 2003 We shoudnt blame our problems on krsna. Krsna has given us free will. Sure he knows the outcome to whatever choice we make but the choice is ours. He just guides us to fullfill that desire of ours. Hari DHam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
