Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 no I am just an analphabet from Spain, no need to victimize all the time darling >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 > > >Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... > >Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) > > > B. B. [ibyza2001] > 20 August 2002 13:32 > > RE: Re: I agree but > > > As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, >violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE >VEGAN ESSENCE, peace > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >RE: Re: I agree but > >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > > > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply > >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? > >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed >much > >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had >argued > >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to >for > >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. > >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able >to > >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of > >course. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj] > > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > > > Re: I agree but > > > > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > > that. > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > > I'm even > > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > > fact that > > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > > ourselves > > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > > spray on > > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > > they are > > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > > see it > > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > > causing and > > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > > future > > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > > the other > > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > > wouldn't > > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > > had a bad > > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > > eyebrow and > > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > > already caused > > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > > attacker > > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > > course press > > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > > sitting > > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > > cowardly > > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > > vegan > > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > > slightly > > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > > disturbed, > > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > > addiction > > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > > their > > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > > people > > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > > to rebel > > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > > and my gran > > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > > nicotine chewing > > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > > quit on > > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > > of them > > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > > sick of > > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > > health > > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > > don't > > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > > deserve new > > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > > and > > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > > transplants, I > > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > > illness. > > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > > had most > > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > > related, > > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > > all that > > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > > all have > > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > > anything which > > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > > I never > > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > > ethical > > > grounds. > > > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > > smoke > > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > > handle. > > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > > allergic to > > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > > badly, I > > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > > and try to > > > blame other things. > > > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > > animal rights > > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > > them, how > > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > > were not > > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > > in lab > > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > > smoke as a > > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > > social > > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > > AR > > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > > way to > > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > > > I agree but > > > > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > > smokers > > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > > > 2nd meet > > > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > > coherent, > > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > > > > > > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > > marches > > > put > > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > > that I am > > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > > surrounded by > > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > > after outside > > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > > experience > > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > > to anyone > > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > > non-smoking > > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > > people > > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > > ethical vegan > > > and > > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > > not make > > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > > to > > > improved > > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > > made no > > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > > peace of > > > mind. > > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > > to live > > > away > > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > > tobacco > > > > campaigning > > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > > that > > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > > health, but > > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > > British of > > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > > them - but > > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > > to do > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > > leave > > > > now? > > > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > > when > > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > > Mucus? > > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > > bones. > > > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > > sheds > > > > and > > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > > farms. > > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > > technologies, > > > > it > > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > > a > > > > day— > > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > > inseminate > > > > cows > > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > > cause > > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > > sometimes > > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > > overuse > > > > of > > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > > their > > > > own > > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > > to17 > > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > > turn > > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > > mothers, > > > > or > > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > > stomachs > > > > (an > > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > > tiny > > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > > lives, > > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > > expend > > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > > It > > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > > through > > > > cows > > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > > waste of > > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > > source > > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > > every > > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > > destroying the > > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > > of the > > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > > has > > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > > streams. > > > > In > > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > > excrement > > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > > 200 > > > > cows > > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > > community of > > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > > animal > > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > > complex > > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > > cholesterol. > > > > They > > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > > child > > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > > saying it > > > > can > > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > > in the > > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > > America's > > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > > prevent > > > > it, > > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > > body. > > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > > study of > > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > > actually > > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > > American > > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > > which > > > > is 40 > > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > > actual > > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > > milk, > > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > > cheese. > > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > > supermarkets. > > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > > life. > > > > It > > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > > drinking > > > > > it today." > > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > > Starter > > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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