Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Okeydokey, here is the O-U answer! Sandra - Rosner, Sarah 'Sandra Mort' Wednesday, July 02, 2003 2:38 PM Gelatine ???? 15th day in the Month of Sivan 5763 Wednesday, June 25, ‘03 Send comments/questions to:Kosherq 0I265 – A Discussion About Gelatin Dear Ms. Mort. Thank you for checking with the OU on your Kashruth question. There is the old Jewish Joke. A quarrelling wife and husband come to the Rabbi to settle their disputes. The Rabbi’s wife brings the couple in to the Rabbi. The husband begins to bring forth a long list of complaints; the Rabbi listens pensively and then declares that the husband is in the right. Hearing this, the wife is peeved that the Rabbi has ruled without listening to her version of the events, and with the Rabbi’s consent begins to list all the complaints she has against her husband. The Rabbi listens attentively and when the wife has finished, he declares just as emphatically that the wife is in the right. It is at this point, that the Rabbi’s wife gets very frustrated. “My dear wonderful husband.” She exclaimed. “You are such a learned scholar and great genius. And I am but an ignorant woman.. Forgive my stupidity, but I don’t understand. Could I beg of you to explain to me how it is possible for you to rule on a question where two sides are opposite of each other that ‘each one is right’?” The Rabbi put his finger to his brow, and went into deep thought. When he returned to this world he looked at his loyal and faithful wife and in a voice full of admiration of her insight and wisdom, said to her “Dear wife. The answer is both simple and obvious. The answer is that YOU are also right. The quarreling couple, the Rabbi and his loving wife all lived happily ever after. As you shall see after you read what follows. Both you and your ‘other person’ are right. But you are more right than the other since most Rabbis today agree with your interpretation of the law. But in fairness, there was a time when many Rabbis held the other position – that of the other person. Read on: Among the thousands of ingredients available in food processing formulas, the common, widely used gelatin presents very complicated issues of Kashruth. This versatile ingredient is produced in a number of ways, and we will discuss these ways here in connection with gelatin’s Kashruth status. Some of the many uses of gelatin are in capsules, emulsifiers, frostings, gel desserts, ice cream, low fat foods, protein supplements, sugar glazes, throat lozenges, and in vitamins. Gelatin is surprisingly fat-free, yet it leaves a smooth feeling in your mouth similar to fat. As an emulsifier (a solution to assure that one liquid will not mix with the other), gelatin acts to distribute fat and add stability to confections (such as frostings, ice cream, and yogurt.) Adding gelatin to candy will make the taste of the candy last longer in the mouth. Gelatin can be used to mask bitter taste and thus is often used as capsules or coatings of medications. Gelatin is an ideal ingredient for the manufacture of many processed foods and confections. But Is Gelatin Kosher? The answer is: It depends; for there are a number of ways how gelatin is produced. One type of gelatin is made by extracting the collagen from the bones and skins of any animal - Tahur or Tomei animals, Kosher or Treifa animals. To understand the Halachic status of gelatin a number of issues must be addressed. The Torah prohibits eating the meat of a Tomei animal (pig, horse, donkey) as well as meat from a Tahur animal that was not slaughtered according to Halacha (considered as a N’veilah) or the meat of animals with certain injuries or disorders (considered as Treifa). A number of questions come to the fore: Do these prohibitions apply to the bones and skins as well? If yes, can this status of Tomei or Neveilah be altered through processing techniques used in the manufacture of gelatin? If gelatin is derived from Tahur and Kosher animals, would it retain the properties from its source, in other words, is gelatin considered ‘meat’?. Can Kosher gelatin be eaten with milk or with fish? To understand the arguments and the reasons we must begin by stating that there is a difference in the Halacha between the bones and hides of a Tahur animal, and that of a Tomei animal. The question whether bones and skins of a kosher animal have the same properties as its meat is discussed in the Yoreh Deah (99). Without going into lengthy exposition, the consensus is that derivatives (gelatin?) produced from the dried bones (not ‘fresh bones’) or from the dried hides of Kosher slaughtered animals are, according to the Torah, NOT considered meat. Though, as a Rabbinical prohibition, the dry bones or hides themselves should not be cooked together with milk. Accordingly, the gelatin processed from such bones or bones are considered Pareve according to most Poskim. One should mention, however, that the renowned Rosh Yeshiva, Rabbi Aaron Kotler ZT”L held that Kosher gelatin should not be considered Pareve. What is it in the process that that bring about changes in the status of the bones. The process of making gelatin consists of the use of lye (or similar strong chemicals) that completely alter the makeup of the bones or of the hides to such a degree that they lose their original Halachic identity. We must add that in speaking of dried bones/hides we are talking about bones where the marrow has been removed and with hides where all flesh has been completely removed. Only then will the processing change the status of the these items from Fleishig to Pareve. What would be the status of meat that was treated with lye, etc.; would the meat also become Pareve? The answer is there is a great difference between the bones and hides of an animal and the meat of an animal. Bones and hides are in themselves not a food though they have an identity of meat. Destroying that identity through lye or acid would remove that identity leaving a 'new' Pareve product. Whereas meat treated with lye would render the meat inedible but it would keep its status of meat. If this is so, would we able to use the gelatin made from the bones and hides of either a Tomei or a Treifa animal? After all their bones are not considered a food and the processing used in making gelatin should, by the same reasoning, also become a ‘new’ and ‘Pareve’ food. In the early part of this century, leading Rabbinical Authorities strongly disagreed among themselves on this issue of whether gelatin made from Tomei or Treifa animals were Kosher or not. One of the giants of that age, Rav Chaim Oizer of Vilna issued a ruling permitting the use of such gelatin. THIS IS THE “KOSHER GELATIN” THAT DANNON IS NOW USING IN THEIR FRUIT WITH YOGURT PRODUCTS. Most of the other major Rabbinical authorities (Rabbi Feinstein, Rabbi Eliezer Silver, Rabbi Kotler and many more) strongly disagreed with that ruling. They based their opinion on the issue that while the lye may have altered the very nature of the bones, they still retain their identity of Tomei or of Treifa. Currently nearly all of the major Kashruth certification agencies will not allow gelatin derived from a non-kosher animal as an ingredient. The OU’s Rabbinical Board agrees with the ruling of the latter Rabbis and will absolutely not accept such gelatin as an ingredient in a product it certifies. However, one should keep in mind that many notable Rabbis had considered such gelatin to be Kosher and Pareve. Those products not certified by major reliable Kashruth certifiers containing the so-called ‘kosher gelatin’ can be assumed to contain a gelatin derived form either Tomei or Treifa animals The OU approves the animal-based gelatin produced according to careful guidelines placed on the manufacturer under strict supervision, and the product is considered Pareve. These are that the bones and hides must come from Tahur and Kosher animals only, with the animal examined for disorders, and salted properly, and the bones and hides scraped clean of marrow and meat. THIS IS THE KOSHER GELATIN USED IN ELYON GELATIN. Recently there has been discovered a way to manufacture gelatin made from the bones and skin of Kosher dried fish. Obviously there is the same insistence that only Kosher fish bones may be used. Because there is a prohibition against eating fish with meat, the fish bones and the fish skins must be equally cleaned from any residue of ‘fish meat’ before the process of converting the bones into gelatin. Here too, strict supervision is required. Because the guidelines are strictly followed, it may be said that such fish gelatin, bearing a reliable Kashruth certification, may be eaten with meat. There are many companies in the USA that produce fish gelatin, but unless there is strict supervision, such gelatin cannot be considered permissible. Nearly all the products certified by the OU that contain gelatin as an ingredient, use a reliable Kosher certified fish gelatin. Gelatin made from vegetables and herbs have also recently been introduced into the market place. The concern here is what ingredients are used to produce the gelatin. Please don't hesitate to contact us again should you have any further questions. With best wishes for a healthy and pleasant summer, we remain, Sincerely The Web (be) Rebbe Sandra Mort [sandra.mort] Friday, June 13, 2003 11:44 AM Rosner, Sarah Re: Gelatine Sorry, the clock on my pc was off! I corrected it this morning. Sandra Dear Sandra, Just Checking: I received this e-mail on June 12, 03, and the e-mail is dated Jan 2000? Are you resending this e-mail, or is this an error. Thanks, Sarah Sandra Mort [sandra.mort] Sunday, January 02, 2000 10:53 AM kosher Gelatine Some friends of mine on a discussion group had a disagreement and I was hoping you could tell us which was correct. I said that gelatine is kosher pareve *only* from a kosher animal (or vegetarian, of course). The other person said that just as it was considered so far removed from animal to become pareve, it was also acceptable to have a treyf animal as the source. Who is correct? Thank you, Sandra - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Unique Baby Boutique (www.saplings.us/ubb) -- We carry pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding supplies including the new Whisper Wear Hands Free pump! Email me for information about home parties, gift registries and home based business opportunities. Parent Well... It matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2003 Report Share Posted July 4, 2003 Wow, I could practically hear the lilting Talmudic accent and see the waving hands while I read that response. The description of the required manufacturing process certaining was gross enough. Made me glad that I don't eat the stuff. Thanks for the interesting research Sandra. Nice to know that we can both be right. Regards Phil " It's easy to say, 'It's not my child, not my community, not my world, not my problem'. Then there are those who see the need and respond. I consider those people my heroes. " - Fred Rogers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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