communicating about food abuse, was Raw Aggression

[Guest guest]

Roger,

You've given me a very thoughtful and encouraging message. I really appreciate

the time you took to share your thoughts and I wanted to give my appreciation

right away. I want to wait a day or so to give my response though, especially

since I get time to think about things more deeply on Sundays. Thanks again.

Nick Hein

Morgantown, WV

 

 

>Roger Padvorac <roger

>2008/01/19 Sat PM 02:38:14 CST

>

> communicating about food abuse, was > Re: Raw

Aggression

 

>

>Hi Nick,

>I'm sorry to hear that you are in such a distressing situation. My experience

parallels Ron's in a general sense, except I tried to hang onto those

relationships longer than he did, and in doing so caused myself lots of problems

that will take years to dig out of. It would have been better for me if I had

chosen sooner to allow myself the freedom to live my life as I felt I needed to

and let them make their choices about their lives.

>

>Each person truly has the right and responsibility to make their own choices.

Dealing with this gets much harder when kids are involved. Eventually I had to

recognize that running my own life into the ground in an attempt to care for

kids wouldn't help anybody then or later, and would set a bad example for the

kids in the long run. Some kids are listening, but many times it takes years for

this to surface (late 20's or 30's) , and you owe it to yourself and them to

sustain well-being in your own life in the mean time, while waiting to see if

the kids were listening.

>

>Its too bad there has been so little useful work done on the underlying

psychology related to food. Sometimes people actually choose to starve to death

rather than change their diet. Its very common for people to die of degenerative

diseases directly caused by their diet. Compared to food, people are quite

rational about politics, sex, and religion.

>

>I think we have very little understanding of what is going on under this

resistance to diet change. I have a very strong will, and many issues of change

which are a struggle for others are easy for me - except for food. I'm still

somewhat amazed and shocked at how hard it was and is for me to get myself to

eat what I know I would be good for my health, and I have lots of will and

tenacity.

>

>Very likely part of the backlash about healthy diets is that underneath the

resistance to diet change is guilt, frustration, and anger, and since they can't

deal with it and try to ignore this, they lash out at others who keep reminding

them of these painful issues which they are trying to ignore. As long as they

are choosing to avoid dealing with their underlying issues related to diet, they

will lash out at anything that makes it harder to avoid and ignore. Likely this

also applies to what happened during FOX news interview too, both to the doctor

and the audience.

>

>In many ways food abuse is as hard to deal with than any other substance abuse

(partially because our culture keeps pretending its a small easy issue), and its

well established that until a person chooses to work to resolve the underling

issues related to substance abuse, there isn't anything that can be done about

their substance abuse issues. Its also well established that when a person lets

themselves be drawn into the mess of another's substance abuse issues, it blocks

constructive resolution and messes up their own life.

>

>When a person lives their life in a healthy way, and allows others to make

their own choices, and leaves the door open, then sometimes later on positive

change occurs. I'm referring to the fine line here between caring about a

person, and caring for a person. You can care about a person without cleaning up

the messes they make in their lives. Its easy to become an enabler of problems

in other people by cleaning up their messes for them.

>

>Every time I think I've finally gotten the judgmental framing and tone out of

how I speak, I discover new more subtle layers of this. Even if people can't

point out how this is conveyed, they can feel it and react to it. When a person

is already feeling guilty about the issues they are ignoring, a judgmental tone

is like throwing a lit match into a box of fireworks. Likely this is part of why

backing off and letting people make their own choices opens the door to

potential positive change in the future. Backing off reduces my frustration, and

this reduces the negative tone in my thinking and speaking, and this reduces

their negative reacting towards me, and then, maybe, one day they will take a

look at themselves and their issues.

>

>In many ways therapists are people coaches, and can be used in this context. A

large part of their study is the complexities of relationship dynamics, and they

can help provide insight and coaching on how to best deal with tangled people

situations. When people have a complex accounting problem, they go to an

accountant. In that same sense, therapists are people dynamics experts and can

help with tangled people problems. Just like some accountants are incompetent,

so are some therapists, and its important to determine if the person you are

seeking help from has an adequate skill set for the issues that need to be

addressed.

>

>There has been quite a bit written about the problems a person faces when a

family member is a substance abuser, and likely a lot of it also applies when a

person is abusing their heath through food. Some people ignore their abuse

issues, but when physical health issues show up, choose to face what they need

to, so they can deal with the cause of their loss of health. When a person

chooses to ignore their issues even after significant health issues show up, it

gets very tangled, messy and destructive for the other people in their lives,

and that's what these books help family members deal with.

>

>Possibly the most important piece of framing is for a person in this situation

to choose to move towards well-being and peace of mind in their own lives, while

they leave the door open for others to come with them, if they choose to do so,

then or later.

>

>These are those simple ideas that take a long time to understand and accept -

sometimes this takes years. I usually write about things I'm thinking about or

dealing with, and I'll be a lucky and blessed guy if I can apply all these good

ideas in my own life.

>

>May your day be filled with clarity, grace, progress, and warm laugher,

>Roger

>

>-

> " dukkadon " <dukkadon

>

>Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:37 AM

> Re: Raw Aggression

>

>> Hello Nick,

>...

>> Ron

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nick,

 

I think you said an awfully lot of important things in your message.

One thing I want to respond to you about, however, is that you seem to

be overly concerned about what other people think and do, and eat!

What difference does that make to you?

 

I know from my own experience that I have been overly concerned about

the same thing because I kept looking to others for support for my own

food program. But I have finally concluded that if I am to accomplish

this lifestyle change, I must do INDEPENDENTLY OF OTHERS. What others

eat, and say and do and think cannot be my focus, or I will always be

concerned with others who never seem to get it right! If I wait for

others to solve their misconceptions and insanity surrounding food, I

will never solve my own problems.

 

I'm also feeling that I need to stay out of restaurants, coffee shops,

bakeries, etc. for the same reason that recovering alcoholics decide

to stay out of nightclubs and bars: it reduces the temptations and

exposure to users and insane people.

 

It is amazing to see a person kill himself with alcohol, food or

drugs. I see people die every day from diabetes, cardiovascular

disease, cancer, and some 20-30 chronic, degenerative diseases related

to obesity! It seems to be " normal " !

 

Ron

 

 

 

, " Roger Padvorac " <roger wrote:

>

> Hi Nick,

> I'm sorry to hear that you are in such a distressing situation. My

experience parallels Ron's in a general sense, except I tried to hang

onto those relationships longer than he did, and in doing so caused

myself lots of problems that will take years to dig out of. It would

have been better for me if I had chosen sooner to allow myself the

freedom to live my life as I felt I needed to and let them make their

choices about their lives.

>

> Each person truly has the right and responsibility to make their own

choices. Dealing with this gets much harder when kids are involved.

Eventually I had to recognize that running my own life into the ground

in an attempt to care for kids wouldn't help anybody then or later,

and would set a bad example for the kids in the long run. Some kids

are listening, but many times it takes years for this to surface (late

20's or 30's) , and you owe it to yourself and them to sustain

well-being in your own life in the mean time, while waiting to see if

the kids were listening.

>

> Its too bad there has been so little useful work done on the

underlying psychology related to food. Sometimes people actually

choose to starve to death rather than change their diet. Its very

common for people to die of degenerative diseases directly caused by

their diet. Compared to food, people are quite rational about

politics, sex, and religion.

>

> I think we have very little understanding of what is going on under

this resistance to diet change. I have a very strong will, and many

issues of change which are a struggle for others are easy for me -

except for food. I'm still somewhat amazed and shocked at how hard it

was and is for me to get myself to eat what I know I would be good for

my health, and I have lots of will and tenacity.

>

> Very likely part of the backlash about healthy diets is that

underneath the resistance to diet change is guilt, frustration, and

anger, and since they can't deal with it and try to ignore this, they

lash out at others who keep reminding them of these painful issues

which they are trying to ignore. As long as they are choosing to avoid

dealing with their underlying issues related to diet, they will lash

out at anything that makes it harder to avoid and ignore. Likely this

also applies to what happened during FOX news interview too, both to

the doctor and the audience.

>

> In many ways food abuse is as hard to deal with than any other

substance abuse (partially because our culture keeps pretending its a

small easy issue), and its well established that until a person

chooses to work to resolve the underling issues related to substance

abuse, there isn't anything that can be done about their substance

abuse issues. Its also well established that when a person lets

themselves be drawn into the mess of another's substance abuse issues,

it blocks constructive resolution and messes up their own life.

>

> When a person lives their life in a healthy way, and allows others

to make their own choices, and leaves the door open, then sometimes

later on positive change occurs. I'm referring to the fine line here

between caring about a person, and caring for a person. You can care

about a person without cleaning up the messes they make in their

lives. Its easy to become an enabler of problems in other people by

cleaning up their messes for them.

>

> Every time I think I've finally gotten the judgmental framing and

tone out of how I speak, I discover new more subtle layers of this.

Even if people can't point out how this is conveyed, they can feel it

and react to it. When a person is already feeling guilty about the

issues they are ignoring, a judgmental tone is like throwing a lit

match into a box of fireworks. Likely this is part of why backing off

and letting people make their own choices opens the door to potential

positive change in the future. Backing off reduces my frustration, and

this reduces the negative tone in my thinking and speaking, and this

reduces their negative reacting towards me, and then, maybe, one day

they will take a look at themselves and their issues.

>

> In many ways therapists are people coaches, and can be used in this

context. A large part of their study is the complexities of

relationship dynamics, and they can help provide insight and coaching

on how to best deal with tangled people situations. When people have a

complex accounting problem, they go to an accountant. In that same

sense, therapists are people dynamics experts and can help with

tangled people problems. Just like some accountants are incompetent,

so are some therapists, and its important to determine if the person

you are seeking help from has an adequate skill set for the issues

that need to be addressed.

>

> There has been quite a bit written about the problems a person faces

when a family member is a substance abuser, and likely a lot of it

also applies when a person is abusing their heath through food. Some

people ignore their abuse issues, but when physical health issues show

up, choose to face what they need to, so they can deal with the cause

of their loss of health. When a person chooses to ignore their issues

even after significant health issues show up, it gets very tangled,

messy and destructive for the other people in their lives, and that's

what these books help family members deal with.

>

> Possibly the most important piece of framing is for a person in this

situation to choose to move towards well-being and peace of mind in

their own lives, while they leave the door open for others to come

with them, if they choose to do so, then or later.

>

> These are those simple ideas that take a long time to understand and

accept - sometimes this takes years. I usually write about things I'm

thinking about or dealing with, and I'll be a lucky and blessed guy if

I can apply all these good ideas in my own life.

>

> May your day be filled with clarity, grace, progress, and warm laugher,

> Roger

>

> -

> " dukkadon " <dukkadon

>

> Saturday, January 19, 2008 8:37 AM

> Re: Raw Aggression

>

>

> > Hello Nick,

> ...

> > Ron

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Roger, this was a great answer to Nick. It must be very difficult to

live with a family, the younger ones of whom you are responsible for,

and not be able to provide for them what you think they should have

for their health and well-being because your spouse is resisting it.

Knowing the reactions of people who don't want to improve their diet -

nor that of the younger ones, either - has to be so frustrating and

discouraging. As Roger said, there are all sorts of reasons why

people resist, and if it were only the two of you involved it would be

much easier to say " the heck with it " and leave to pursue your own

choices.

 

I would think that staying in this kind of relationship would be very

unhappy for the both of you, considering that there would be so many

negative emotions in the air every time you sat down together for a

meal or went out on family activities and were confronted by the many

available junk foods (hey kids, want a hot dog? Ice-cream at 32-

Flavors?) Still, it is possible to be the visible example of what

eating raw can do for one's health. Being there would also make it

possible to contribute healthful things at mealtimes - salads &

dressings, tasty fruit & green smoothies, raw ice-creams, dehydrated

crackers & snacks, plus sweeteners like raw Agave and condiments like

sea salt, etc. This would help with maintaining the kid's health and

providing choices which they might not otherwise get on a daily

basis. It would require diplomacy and tolerance for what the spouse

was doing in contradiction to these, however. Your love for each

other would have to be stronger than the all the disagreebleness over

food.

 

Blanc

 

 

 

On Jan 19, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Roger Padvorac wrote:

> (removed)

> .