Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Hi all, I posted the other day about Lierre Keith appearing at the Anarchist Bookfair, and asking if there were any fair analyses of her book yet. I was not too pleased that she was invited, but I want to make it clear that I did not and do not endorse the pieing, cayenne or otherwise. I've heard several first hand accounts from people who were there, from pro vegan, non vegan and anti vegan perspectives. There's a lot of controversy around this. After what I've heard and read about Keith and about the incident, I think the three men (it was reported that three men pied her), should not have done this. Pieing should be saved for the real class criminals like Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Much easier to pick on a disabled middle aged woman with unpopular (to some, certainly to me) opinions. I liked the comments on indybay that criticized the veg community for refusing to take class issues into account, for thinking that veg*ism is the be all and end all of resistance and struggle, and who challenge people to read the book before jumping to conclusions. I jumped to conclusions based on interviews I heard with her on KPFA. I admit that and will commit to discussing this with my friends who have read the book or who have differing opinions on this. I might read the book at some point, I'm just so swamped in reading commitments that take up all my reading time, otherwise I would read it right now.I hope others here will read the comments at the indybay article and take to heart some very fair criticism of what's wrong with the veg community. That said, if this was a set up to smear veg*ns as I've heard some say, that still doesn't let us off the hook for doing some good introspective criticism of how we interact with the world, of how *all* agriculture, especially capitalist agriculture, is tearing up the planet.. Take the fair criticism, discard the hateful critiques, and don't spread hate! And why is it that this incident inspired more comments than the Oscar Grant shooting, as someone asked in one of the indybay comments? Why indeed?Are we so insecure in our personal choices that we're going to endorse violence (and I'm saying this with the thought that it's possible that this was set up - just entertaining all possibilities here, I'm not saying it was) against someone simply talking against (or what we're told is against, or we think might be against) what we believe? That's not the kind of society I want to be in. Whether this was a police provocation or not, cui buono? The police, I believe. That's my opinion, at least for now, until more info comes to light, if it ever does. Janice Rothstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Janice, Perhaps I should have snickered in silence, and I am the first one to condemn "violence", but I firmly feel that this was not a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action. The only thing the pie throwing ninjas bruised was her ego. If you feel that it's ok to pie Bush and Rummy, then Lierre Keith deserves it as well. Those that pied her were not "picking on her", they were making a statement. Keith's book is very dangerous to the vegan movement. Yes, she is against factory farming, but everyone is critical of it once they learn about it, whether or not they go vegan. She is promoting "grass-fed" and "free-range" meat, feeding into the "happy meat" phenomenon that is converting vegetarians back to meat eating. She also feeds the stereotype that vegans are sickly and weak and need meat to be healthy. People are going to love to latch on to this book to justify their meat eating in every way. Yes, all monocroping, commercial agriculture is hurting the planet, but most of that acreage is growing crops to feed farm animals. And there is just not enough land to feed the billions of people on the planet with "free-range" animals. It is completely unrealistic. I could go into all the scientifically documented and sound environmental arguments on the benefits of eliminating animal agriculture, free-range or not, but what I really think it comes down to is that we have no right to kill and eat another sentient being, and Keith is giving the "alternative/environmental community" the justification to do just that. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of bikegataSent: Monday, March 15, 2010 1:43 PM Subject: The pieing at the Anarchist Bookfair Hi all, I posted the other day about Lierre Keith appearing at the Anarchist Bookfair, and asking if there were any fair analyses of her book yet. I was not too pleased that she was invited, but I want to make it clear that I did not and do not endorse the pieing, cayenne or otherwise. I've heard several first hand accounts from people who were there, from pro vegan, non vegan and anti vegan perspectives. There's a lot of controversy around this. After what I've heard and read about Keith and about the incident, I think the three men (it was reported that three men pied her), should not have done this. Pieing should be saved for the real class criminals like Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Much easier to pick on a disabled middle aged woman with unpopular (to some, certainly to me) opinions. I liked the comments on indybay that criticized the veg community for refusing to take class issues into account, for thinking that veg*ism is the be all and end all of resistance and struggle, and who challenge people to read the book before jumping to conclusions. I jumped to conclusions based on interviews I heard with her on KPFA. I admit that and will commit to discussing this with my friends who have read the book or who have differing opinions on this. I might read the book at some point, I'm just so swamped in reading commitments that take up all my reading time, otherwise I would read it right now. I hope others here will read the comments at the indybay article and take to heart some very fair criticism of what's wrong with the veg community. That said, if this was a set up to smear veg*ns as I've heard some say, that still doesn't let us off the hook for doing some good introspective criticism of how we interact with the world, of how *all* agriculture, especially capitalist agriculture, is tearing up the planet.. Take the fair criticism, discard the hateful critiques, and don't spread hate! And why is it that this incident inspired more comments than the Oscar Grant shooting, as someone asked in one of the indybay comments? Why indeed? Are we so insecure in our personal choices that we're going to endorse violence (and I'm saying this with the thought that it's possible that this was set up - just entertaining all possibilities here, I'm not saying it was) against someone simply talking against (or what we're told is against, or we think might be against) what we believe? That's not the kind of society I want to be in. Whether this was a police provocation or not, cui buono? The police, I believe. That's my opinion, at least for now, until more info comes to light, if it ever does. Janice Rothstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Reagrding the pieing of Lierre Keith, I think that we all agree that her book is dangerous and damaging. However, the pertinent question is how do we best discredit her? How do we show her ideas to be untrue and invalid? How do we make our positon appear in the best possible light? How do we present our point of view so as to influence others outside of this movement? It is those outside the movement who are our target audience. We need to consider how to best make our case to those people. Pieing is venting anger. But the point is to help animals not to vent our anger. So the question is how will the average Jane and Joe view the pieing? Will it make them more sympathetic to us and our cause? It is all about how we appear to others. It is only by getting others to change that we can save animals. We need to think about making people sympathetic to us. If others have negative views of us they will use it as an excuse to ignore the plight of animals. On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Hope <hope wrote: Janice, Perhaps I should have snickered in silence, and I am the first one to condemn " violence " , but I firmly feel that this was not a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action. The only thing the pie throwing ninjas bruised was her ego. If you feel that it's ok to pie Bush and Rummy, then Lierre Keith deserves it as well. Those that pied her were not " picking on her " , they were making a statement. Keith's book is very dangerous to the vegan movement. Yes, she is against factory farming, but everyone is critical of it once they learn about it, whether or not they go vegan. She is promoting " grass-fed " and " free-range " meat, feeding into the " happy meat " phenomenon that is converting vegetarians back to meat eating. She also feeds the stereotype that vegans are sickly and weak and need meat to be healthy. People are going to love to latch on to this book to justify their meat eating in every way. Yes, all monocroping, commercial agriculture is hurting the planet, but most of that acreage is growing crops to feed farm animals. And there is just not enough land to feed the billions of people on the planet with " free-range " animals. It is completely unrealistic. I could go into all the scientifically documented and sound environmental arguments on the benefits of eliminating animal agriculture, free-range or not, but what I really think it comes down to is that we have no right to kill and eat another sentient being, and Keith is giving the " alternative/environmental community " the justification to do just that. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of bikegata Monday, March 15, 2010 1:43 PM Subject: The pieing at the Anarchist Bookfair Hi all, I posted the other day about Lierre Keith appearing at the Anarchist Bookfair, and asking if there were any fair analyses of her book yet. I was not too pleased that she was invited, but I want to make it clear that I did not and do not endorse the pieing, cayenne or otherwise. I've heard several first hand accounts from people who were there, from pro vegan, non vegan and anti vegan perspectives. There's a lot of controversy around this. After what I've heard and read about Keith and about the incident, I think the three men (it was reported that three men pied her), should not have done this. Pieing should be saved for the real class criminals like Milton Friedman, Alan Greenspan, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Much easier to pick on a disabled middle aged woman with unpopular (to some, certainly to me) opinions. I liked the comments on indybay that criticized the veg community for refusing to take class issues into account, for thinking that veg*ism is the be all and end all of resistance and struggle, and who challenge people to read the book before jumping to conclusions. I jumped to conclusions based on interviews I heard with her on KPFA. I admit that and will commit to discussing this with my friends who have read the book or who have differing opinions on this. I might read the book at some point, I'm just so swamped in reading commitments that take up all my reading time, otherwise I would read it right now. I hope others here will read the comments at the indybay article and take to heart some very fair criticism of what's wrong with the veg community. That said, if this was a set up to smear veg*ns as I've heard some say, that still doesn't let us off the hook for doing some good introspective criticism of how we interact with the world, of how *all* agriculture, especially capitalist agriculture, is tearing up the planet.. Take the fair criticism, discard the hateful critiques, and don't spread hate! And why is it that this incident inspired more comments than the Oscar Grant shooting, as someone asked in one of the indybay comments? Why indeed? Are we so insecure in our personal choices that we're going to endorse violence (and I'm saying this with the thought that it's possible that this was set up - just entertaining all possibilities here, I'm not saying it was) against someone simply talking against (or what we're told is against, or we think might be against) what we believe? That's not the kind of society I want to be in. Whether this was a police provocation or not, cui buono? The police, I believe. That's my opinion, at least for now, until more info comes to light, if it ever does. Janice Rothstein -- " The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo. When we have a choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of another. " Albert Schweitzer Check out the website: chooseveg.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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