Reflections (long)

[Guest guest]

rawfood , orionsdad <no_reply> wrote:

 

> Thank you Sara.

 

I too thank Sara, Orionsdad, and Karl.

 

> Animal rights = OK, but let's be respectful of views on both sides

of

> the issure. Present your opinion without attacking.

>

> Thanking people for voicing their differing opinion in a friendly

> manner = OK. We are not all right on every issue. How will we grow

if

> we don't hear opposing views. An overly defensive posture is seldom

> welcome or productive.

 

Yes, I became more aware at some point yesterday of my

defensiveness. It is a challenge for me to have civil discussions

with those who are staunchly non-vegan and/or anti-vegan. Think of

it this way: How tolerant, loving, non-defensive would any of us be

if our parents, children, brothers, sisters, friends, were being

enslaved, imprisoned, tortured, killed, by the billions, perhaps

trillions? How tolerant, loving, non-defensive would we be to those

who were perpetrating these acts? How tolerant, loving, non-

defensive are human animals toward those who have perpetrated

genocide on members of their religion, or nationality, or race?

 

Dick Cavett:

" Are you saying that you think the life of a mosquito has the same

worth as the life of a man? "

Isaac Bashevis Singer:

" I have seen no evidence to the contrary. "

 

" Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one

wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to

die, so do other creatures. "

--His Holiness the XIV Dalai Lama of Tibet

 

" If animals could talk, would we then dare to kill and eat them? How

could we then justify such fratricide? "

--Voltaire

 

" Life is life -- whether in a cat, or dog or man. There is no

difference there between a cat or a man. The idea of difference is a

human conception for man's own advantage... "

--Sri Aurobindo

 

" I will not eat anything that walks, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

God knows that I've crawled on occasion, and I'm glad that no one

ate me. "

--Alex Poulos

 

" All sentient beings are individuals to whom life is of intrinsic

value; it's the only life they knowingly have. Each individual of

whatever species has, in his or her own way, feelings of social

awareness and family ties, together with the ability to suffer. So

it MUST follow that we as humans do not have the right to abuse,

kill and exploit those of other species for our own ends, merely

because we have the POWER so to do, any more than we had the right

to use those of other races for the same reason. "

--Robin Webb

 

I consider non-human animals my brothers and sisters and children,

much more so than humans. Non-human animals are loving, tolerant,

intelligent, soulful, sentient angels. There are very few human

animals about whom I could say the same. Human animals who insist on

harming these precious non-human beings, as do most human animals,

evoke in me the same outrage, as the outrage most human animals

proclaim when there is genocide of whatever they consider to be

their own kind. Except that it is even deeply felt by animal rights

activists, because while human animals have been conditioned to

aggressively oppose even the very idea of human animals harming

other human animals, the enslavement, imprisonment, torture, and

murder of non-humans is brazenly promoted and practiced everywhere,

it even slips into vegan forums, under the guise of simply

a " difference of opinion " .

 

" But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a

soul of the sun and light and of that proportion of life and time it

had been born into the world to enjoy. "

--Plutarch

 

" I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will

come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they

now look upon the murder of men. "

--Leonardo Da Vinci

 

" While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how

can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth? "

--George Bernard Shaw

 

" Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all

evolution. Until we stop harming ALL other living beings, we are

still savages. "

--Thomas A. Edison

 

" For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

Indeed he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and

love. "

--Pythagoras

 

" First it was necessary to civilize man in relation to man.

Now it is necessary to civilize man in relation to nature and the

animals. "

--Victor Hugo

 

" 'Thou shalt not kill' does not apply to murder of one's own kind

only, but to all living beings; and this Commandment was inscribed

in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai...A man

can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore,

if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for

the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral. "

--Count Leo Tolstoy

 

On the other hand, I do realize that almost all of us were brought

up eating animals. Some human animals are able to easily recognize

the harm in that practice, both to the non-human animals, and to the

human animals' own health, when it is pointed out to them, and they

make the transition to vegetarianism and then to veganism, as soon

as they can let go of their conditioned ideology and habits.

Meanwhile, others have a more vested interest in the status quo, and

are very entrenched in the lifestyle demanding the exploitation,

abuse, and death of non-human animals, and these human animals will

aggressively defend their habits, often by blatant ad hominem

attacks. Sometimes such are provoked, sometimes not. There is

definitely something to be said for not provoking them, or anyone

else for that matter, though one cannot always keep silent.

 

" The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not

made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or women

for men. "

--Alice Walker

 

" The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by

the way its animals are treated. "

-Gandhi

 

" Let the advocate of animal food force himself to a decisive

experiment on its fitness, and...tear a living lamb with his teeth

and plunging his head into its vitals, slake his thirst with the

steaming blood...then, and then only, would he be consistent. "

--Percy Bysshe Shelley

 

The question becomes, what is the best response to messages of

defensiveness, or the heckling and/or baiting, or other assorted ad

hominems? Or even to the milder assertions by human animals to

their " right " to enslave/imprison non-human animals, consume

murdered non-human animals? I usually ignore these types of

comments, if for no other reason, then because I simply don't have

the time to take them up. It is also rather pointless to take them

up, since the majority of human animals on Earth are so totally

products of their familial, cultural, religious, political, etc.

conditioning that they are not able to think independently or

critically, and are simply not capable of letting go of behavior

that is rooted in millennia of brutality toward non-humans, and in

misunderstanding of health. They would actually inspire in me

feelings of pathos and pity for their plight, if it were not for the

fact that by their actions they are waging such war against the

precious non-human beings of the Earth, who have not the means nor

desire to fight back.

 

So I guess my best way to deal with it is to just speak out and then

let it go. I believe that most of those who are entrenched in their

lifestyle of using, abusing, killing, eating non-human animals and

products of non-human animal abuse, will not be swayed no matter

what I or anyone else say. I suppose if they are not challenged,

then they will not get quite as defensive, but will that help to

open the door to them changing their ways and embracing veganism, or

even vegetarianism? I doubt it. But at least the list will be a bit

quieter, lol. Anyway, I'm not here to promote animal rights, but to

discuss raw vegan food—there's plenty of controversy right there.

However, the promotion of animal products keeps popping up on the

list, as it probably does inevitably on any raw vegan list.

Especially since there are a number of websites specifically preying

upon raw fooders, pushing the eating of raw and/or cooked, corpses,

embryos, and mucus, on unsuspecting health seekers. So a brief

address regarding veganism is sometimes appropriate and on-topic.

But I did over-post recently, and for that I apologize.

 

" All of us cherish our beliefs. They are, to a degree, self-

defining. When someone comes along who challenges our belief system

as insufficiently well-based -- or who, like Socrates, merely asks

embarrassing questions that we haven't thought of, or demonstrates

that we've swept key underlying assumptions under the rug -- it

becomes much more than a search for knowledge. It feels like a

personal assault. "

--Carl Sagan

 

" First they ignore you.

Then they laugh at you.

Then they fight you.

Then you win. "

-Gandhi

 

" All truth passes through three stages:

First it is ridiculed.

Second it is violently opposed.

Third it is accepted as being self-evident. "

--Schopenhauer "

 

> Off-topic:

> During my ride into work this morning I had this thought. I was

> thinking how limiting our love causes problems. If everyone loved

> everyone else and everything else it would be ideal. But we are far

> from that ideal. Some people's love ends with living things, some

> with people, with race, nationality, community, friends and family,

> raw foodist, family, or self. Why some people don't even love

> themselves. The smaller our cirle of love gets the more problems we

> create and can expect. Beyond our circle is where we think it is ok

> to use and abuse.

>

> So where does your love end?

 

> It's so easy to love someone else when they are just like ourself.

I

> guess it confirms us, our lifestyle, our opinions. But the real

test

> is seeing how far your love extends to those who are different.

 

Yes, loving others is often a challenge, but I think it's easy in

our culture, which demands passivity of individuals and grants all

power to governments, police, etc., to confuse " love " with

acceptance of an intolerable situation and an indifference to what

others do. Actually, as the famous saying goes, " the opposite of

love is not hate, the opposite of love is indifference " . And it is

because of the indifference of the majority of human animals, that

the few human animals are able to exploit, manipulate, repress,

impoverish, the majority of human animals, and all non-human

animals, and the Earth herself. I don't see that not taking a

stance, not fighting for the non-human animals and the Earth, is

love. One needs to stand up against injustice, protect the innocent,

fight for the precious beings who are by far the most pervasively

and perniciously enslaved, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, by the

majority of human animals who are programmed to be myopically self-

centered; to me that is love. Compassion is the basis of love.

 

There is such a thing as tough love. Children know what it is, and

they respond to it, even demand it, whereas the indifference of

their parents is what destroys them. If a parent lets their child do

any kind of crime, drugs, etc., is that love? No, the parent needs

to point the way, needs to educate, to let them know they are not to

hurt themselves or others, that is love. Or take the scenario of a

mother whose child is ripped from her side and imprisoned, tortured,

murdered—is the mother expected to simply be indifferent, to let it

go on? No, of course not, virtually anything the mother did would be

excused, no matter how violent, in order to protect, care for,

defend, save her child. How mild it is by comparison, how much

restraint is exercised, when we whose brethren, just because they

are of a different species, are imprisoned, tortured, murdered,

simply speak out about how wrong it is! Is speaking out against

atrocities not an expression of " love " ? I will try, however, to keep

it to a minimum. I realize this is a raw food list, not an animal

rights list, and will strive to stay on topic. I realized yesterday

that after I speak out once or twice about something on a list, I

need to leave it alone, lesson learned.

 

" Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim.

Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. "

--Elie Wiesel

 

" It's a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong,

something the best people have always done. "

--Harriet Beecher Stowe

 

" It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,

tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. "

--Samuel Adams

 

" Nothing is more powerful than an individual acting out of his

conscience, thus helping to bring the collective conscience to

life. "

-Norman Cousins

 

" Until we have the courage to recognize cruelty for what it is --

whether its victim is human or animal --we cannot expect things to

be much better in this world. We cannot have peace among men whose

hearts delight or condones the killing of any living creature. By

every act that glorifies or even tolerates such killing we set back

the progress of humanity. "

--Rachel Carson

 

> I'm sorry to say that sometimes my circle is smaller than it could

> be. But just understanding and appreciating how precious life

itself

> is helps me to widen my circle of love. The Universe is mostly made

> up of dead material. Life is rare and precious. Be joyful we are

not

> rocks. If there is one thing you share with everyone else it's the

> gift and mystery of life itself. Let's appreciate and hold on to

> that one postive fact and strive widen our cirle.

 

Yes, life is precious, to every creature. It is unfortunate that so

many human animals do not know or care about that, and gladly

participate in the harming of non-human life, in total indifference,

robotism, soullessness; human animals who have forgotten who they

are, and their relationship to our brethren and to Earth herself. It

needs to change.

 

Re rocks, I guess they're not strictly speaking alive, though some

people believe they are. However, the erosion of rocks is what

provides the minerals that plants take up and turn organic, and make

into the best nutrition for us in the form of fruits and nuts, so

rocks have a special place in my heart, as does all of Nature. But

if we speak of concrete or asphalt, now that's really dead. And yes,

life is pretty rare, especially as the concrete and asphalt of human

animals' fake world smothers all life in its deadly path. Yes, let's

strive to share life with everyone else, including all life forms.

There is no reason for human animals to ever kill anyone of any life

form. Namaste.

 

" It is man's sympathy with all creatures that first makes him truly

a man. Until he extends his circle of compassion to all living

things, man will not himself find peace. "

--Albert Schweitzer

 

" If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the

shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal

likewise with their fellow men. "

--St. Francis of Assisi

 

" This is a revolution, damn it! We have to offend SOMEONE! "

-John Adams

 

Zsuzsa