Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 I've just received this :- >The public sacrifice of animals marking the first day of the festival of Eid al-Adha has provoked countrywide protests in Turkey. > >The Turkish media have expressed outrage that despite warnings from the authorities, hundreds of thousands of animals have been cruelly slaughtered while the country looks on. > > " Shame on you " and " Stop this " were some of Tuesday's headlines. > >Marking the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, Eid is traditionally celebrated by sacrificing a sheep. But many animals are being killed in the streets, rather than government designated sites. > >The daily Milliyet published photos of the slaughter on one of the country's motorways under the headline: " This is the road to the EU, turned into a blood-bath. " > >The Radikal newspaper ran a banner headline on its front page saying " Open slaughterhouse " . > >Hurriyet said millions of people were sickened by the cruelty. >It listed incidents of cruelty across the country. > >In the town of Bursa, one bull tried to escape from its tormenters and was rescued by the fire brigade only to be caught again and slaughtered. > >In Sanliurfa, another bull was beaten and stoned to death in the street by the whole neighbourhood. >Animals were hanged from the trees and even from electricity pylons. >In Kayseri bulls were hanged by a hind-leg from a crane. > >But a ram in Izmir was luckier. He managed to run away and took refuge at the police station where he was protected. > >The animal's head is marked with henna before being sacrificed > >Threat of epidemics >Worried about possible epidemics, the local authorites have issued warnings of the danger of disease, but the warnings have been widely flouted. > >The media reported incidents in which parts of slaughtered animals were disposed of in the open, rather than in designated septic tanks. >A smell of rotting flesh pervades many open areas and some streets, Hurriyet said. >In Adana blood and intestines were seen blocking sewers and flooding out onto the streets. > >see full disgusting article and pix of insane religious ghouls having fun here: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_12070 00/1 207433.stm --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2002 Report Share Posted February 23, 2002 In a message dated 2/23/02 4:07:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, angiewright writes: << And people wonder why some people become racists Angie >> *raises eyebrow* like the turks(or anyone) have some sort of edge on cruelty to animals?? in spain they toss goats from church steeples..lets not ferget the bull fights, running with the bulls, etc americans get all in a tizzy when they hear asians eat cute fuzzy lumpkin kitties or doggies..yet, happily munch on hamburgers, fried chicken, and ground up other cute fuzzy animals.. up until recently, in higgon bottom pennsylvania, good ol WASP's would hold a pigeon shoot every year, where pigeons would be released from " hidden " cages and fly across a whole squad of happy men and women who would plug away guns a-blazin.... no one culture, nation, people, etc is necessarily more cruel then another....humans just suck in general.... and, if these folks were truly following islam, they wouldn't be hurting animals... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 And people wonder why some people become racists Angie - " Jo " <Heartwork Saturday, February 23, 2002 1:29 PM Eid al-Adha > I've just received this :- > > >The public sacrifice of animals marking the first day of the festival of > Eid al-Adha has provoked countrywide protests in Turkey. > > > >The Turkish media have expressed outrage that despite warnings from the > authorities, hundreds of thousands of animals have been cruelly slaughtered > while the country looks on. > > > > " Shame on you " and " Stop this " were some of Tuesday's headlines. > > > >Marking the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, Eid is traditionally celebrated > by sacrificing a sheep. But many animals are being killed in the streets, > rather than government designated sites. > > > >The daily Milliyet published photos of the slaughter on one of the > country's motorways under the headline: " This is the road to the EU, turned > into a blood-bath. " > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Could you say what you mean, rather than hint at it, so we can form judgements based on what you actually think, rather guess them? Angie Wright wrote: > > And people wonder why some people become racists > > Angie > -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Some people hate the spanish I didn't say which race ! It could be the americans who are avidly disliked ! It could be thw whole Human race I think I dislike anyone who isn't vegan and most especially people who proffess to belong to a religion - <EBbrewpunx Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:33 AM Re: Eid al-Adha > In a message dated 2/23/02 4:07:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > angiewright writes: > > << And people wonder why some people become racists > > Angie >> > > *raises eyebrow* > > like the turks(or anyone) have some sort of edge on cruelty to animals?? > in spain they toss goats from church steeples..lets not ferget the bull > fights, running with the bulls, etc > americans get all in a tizzy when they hear asians eat cute fuzzy lumpkin > kitties or doggies..yet, happily munch on hamburgers, fried chicken, and > ground up other cute fuzzy animals.. > up until recently, in higgon bottom pennsylvania, good ol WASP's would hold a > pigeon shoot every year, where pigeons would be released from " hidden " cages > and fly across a whole squad of happy men and women who would plug away guns > a-blazin.... > > no one culture, nation, people, etc is necessarily more cruel then > another....humans just suck in general.... > and, if these folks were truly following islam, they wouldn't be hurting > animals... > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 I find the deliberate attacking of animals abhorrant so I hate anyone involved . It may make some people racists . It makes me hate those individuals who do it because obviously not all take part in say Bull fighting but I hate all those who do and those who say nothing . Hence I would think twice about going to Spain (or the places where it is practiced I can't think of many countries where I would feel they were making an effort. Maybe Sweden? Switzerland ? Have they got rid of their fur farms? - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian Sunday, February 24, 2002 1:17 AM Re: Eid al-Adha > Could you say what you mean, rather than hint at it, so we can form > judgements based on what you actually think, rather guess them? > > Angie Wright wrote: > > > > And people wonder why some people become racists > > > > Angie > > > > -- > Ian McDonald > > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 But it's not about race, it's people blindly following a religious dogma, so it would probably generate anti-Islamic feeling not racism exactly. I wonder how Muhammad in Glasgow reconciles these atrocities with his choice of religion, but I think he may only be on the other list, not this one. It's good that he can set the example to other muslims, that it is possible to be vegan and muslim, but I would think that the happenings at Eid al-Adha would make him feel very isolated. I even felt isolated in my teens as a vegetarian in the Church of England and most of them are not cruel people the way these people celebrating Eid are, and Anglicans often support animal welfare but still say god gave us animals to eat. That was why I left the church even before I decided I definitely didn't believe in god. It has to be even harder for a vegan muslim. Lesley Angie Wright [angiewright]24 February 2002 00:05 Subject: Re: Eid al-AdhaAnd people wonder why some people become racistsAngie-"Jo" <HeartworkSaturday, February 23, 2002 1:29 PM Eid al-Adha> I've just received this :->> >The public sacrifice of animals marking the first day of the festival of> Eid al-Adha has provoked countrywide protests in Turkey.> >> >The Turkish media have expressed outrage that despite warnings from the> authorities, hundreds of thousands of animals have been cruellyslaughtered> while the country looks on.> >> >"Shame on you" and "Stop this" were some of Tuesday's headlines.> >> >Marking the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, Eid is traditionallycelebrated> by sacrificing a sheep. But many animals are being killed in the streets,> rather than government designated sites.> >> >The daily Milliyet published photos of the slaughter on one of the> country's motorways under the headline: "This is the road to the EU,turned> into a blood-bath."> >>To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Muhammed hasn't posted on this list. I don't think he posts on the other one either now. Well, not much anyway. He's a busy young dad. Janey x I wonder how Muhammad in Glasgow reconciles these atrocities with his choice of religion, but I think he may only be on the other list, not this one. Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Isn't it clear that some sections of Turkish public opinion, or at least the body politic, deplore the clumsy slaughter? (But not the allegedly humane government slaughterhouses, which we obviously do object to.) > Lesley Dove wrote: > > It's good that he can set the example to other muslims, that it is > possible to be vegan and muslim, but I would think that the happenings > at Eid al-Adha would make him feel very isolated. -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 I remember he said he was on incoming calls only and was only able to post occasionally at an internet cafe. I remember he did say something a while before about money troubles. I hope he has managed to get some new vegan friends locally as he is offline now, I did put him in touch with a couple of other vegan families in Glasgow, so I'm hoping he is not too isolated. Lesley Janey [jane.cuming]24 February 2002 14:36 Subject: Re: Eid al-Adha Muhammed hasn't posted on this list. I don't think he posts on the other one either now. Well, not much anyway. He's a busy young dad. Janey x I wonder how Muhammad in Glasgow reconciles these atrocities with his choice of religion, but I think he may only be on the other list, not this one. Lesley To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Angie Wright wrote: > > I find the deliberate attacking of animals abhorrant so I hate anyone > involved . It may make some people racists . We're talking about your character trait - hating anyone involved in the abuse of animals. How would that make someone a racist, which is an attitude to people for belonging to race, not for what they do or don't do? Why do you think " It may make some people racists " ? How can something " make " someone a racist, removing their moral culpability for their racism? Why do not they get a say in the matter? -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Yes, so you would think they would take it into their own hands to stop it when they see it happening! It's obviously not an essential part of Islam any more than eating fish on Fridays is essential for a catholic. It wouldn't tempt me to become racist or against all muslims, but it could be more likely to make me start to question my anti-death penalty stance. I can't say I could feel any sorrow for these people if someone fought back and killed some of them in the process of saving animals. Lesley Dr Ian McDonald [ian]24 February 2002 15:08 Subject: Re: Eid al-AdhaIsn't it clear that some sections of Turkish public opinion, or at leastthe body politic, deplore the clumsy slaughter?(But not the allegedly humane government slaughterhouses, which weobviously do object to.)> Lesley Dove wrote:> > It's good that he can set the example to other muslims, that it is> possible to be vegan and muslim, but I would think that the happenings> at Eid al-Adha would make him feel very isolated.-- Ian McDonaldhttp://www.mcdonald.me.uk/To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 How would your emotional reaction, or lack thereof, to collateral damage make you rethink your anti-death penalty stance? > Lesley Dove wrote: > > It wouldn't tempt me to become racist or against all muslims, but it > could be more likely to make me start to question my anti-death > penalty stance. I can't say I could feel any sorrow for these people > if someone fought back and killed some of them in the process of > saving animals. > > Lesley > > > > Dr Ian McDonald [ian] > 24 February 2002 15:08 > > Re: Eid al-Adha > > Isn't it clear that some sections of Turkish public opinion, > or at least > the body politic, deplore the clumsy slaughter? > > (But not the allegedly humane government slaughterhouses, > which we > obviously do object to.) > > > Lesley Dove wrote: > > > > It's good that he can set the example to other muslims, > that it is > > possible to be vegan and muslim, but I would think that > the happenings > > at Eid al-Adha would make him feel very isolated. > > -- > Ian McDonald > > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ > > To send an email to > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 I'm not sure if I understand this question, what do you mean by collateral damage? Why do I always feel that you are trying to trip me up? I do find my commitment to respect for sentient life is sorely tried when I hear of such atrocities as Eid or the horrific murder of Daniel Pearl, which Robert Cohen described in detail in Notmilk today. Very upsetting and similar to the way meat animals are killed. It is getting easier for me to understand why some people support the death penalty for those sick psychopaths who are capable of such evil, although as a consistent life ethic supporter I've never been in favour of the death penalty. We are having a problem with trying to teach Jonathan not to keep repeating a sick song some of his schoolfriends taught him. It goes something like this, "Bang bang you're dead, 50 bullets in your head..." He is still at the stage of thinking it is funny to sing that, probably more so if it winds us up. What do other parents here think? Should we ignore it, and not make a big deal of it, or keep telling him to stop? Lesley Dr Ian McDonald [ian]24 February 2002 17:27 Subject: Re: Eid al-AdhaHow would your emotional reaction, or lack thereof, to collateral damagemake you rethink your anti-death penalty stance? > Lesley Dove wrote:> > It wouldn't tempt me to become racist or against all muslims, but it> could be more likely to make me start to question my anti-death> penalty stance. I can't say I could feel any sorrow for these people> if someone fought back and killed some of them in the process of> saving animals.> > Lesley> > > > Dr Ian McDonald [ian]> 24 February 2002 15:08> > Re: Eid al-Adha> > Isn't it clear that some sections of Turkish public opinion,> or at least> the body politic, deplore the clumsy slaughter?> > (But not the allegedly humane government slaughterhouses,> which we> obviously do object to.)> > > Lesley Dove wrote:> >> > It's good that he can set the example to other muslims,> that it is> > possible to be vegan and muslim, but I would think that> the happenings> > at Eid al-Adha would make him feel very isolated.> > --> Ian McDonald> > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/> > To send an email to> - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 > Lesley Dove wrote: > > > I'm not sure if I understand this question, what do you mean by > collateral damage? In general, damage incidental to the main mission. It crept into common usage in the gulf war, as a euphemism for Iraqi civillian deaths. In your example, slaughterers killed whilst saving animals. > Why do I always feel that you are trying to trip me up? > I don't know. Possibly because I ask difficult questions. Possibly you're expressing a feeling, and I'm reacting as if you're expressing an opinion, by trying to get you to pin down your opinion. But I get what you mean ... it's the respect for life that is being reduced, which is an factor both for collateral damage, and the death penalty. -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Ian One of our best friends is Turkish - Pagan not Muslim - and does not support that sort of thing. Jo Re: Eid al-Adha > Isn't it clear that some sections of Turkish public opinion, or at least > the body politic, deplore the clumsy slaughter? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Ian I think Angie's comment was not necessarily meant to be taken literally. Pete Steele (Type O Negative) was accused of being racist because he didn't like some coloured chap. His explanation was that he wasn't racist because he hated all people alike. Jo > We're talking about your character trait - hating anyone involved in the > abuse of animals. How would that make someone a racist, which is an > attitude to people for belonging to race, not for what they do or don't > do? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Lesley My first thought was to agree with you, but on reflection I don't think I would try to stop a crowd of people with knives. Jo Yes, so you would think they would take it into their own hands to stop it when they see it happening! ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 LOL Lesley - I felt that too. Jo I'm not sure if I understand this question, what do you mean by collateral damage? Why do I always feel that you are trying to trip me up? ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 I cannot accept a god either who has given us animals to eat . The pope needs to get his act together and condemn the "religious " festivity that involves throwing goats from church towers . Surely animal eaters must be cruel simply by not caring about the dead body they are putting in their mouth ! They can't pretend that they don't know about it any more -------can they ???? - Lesley Dove Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:29 PM RE: Eid al-Adha But it's not about race, it's people blindly following a I even felt isolated in my teens as a vegetarian in the Church of England and most of them are not cruel people the way these people celebrating Eid are, and Anglicans often support animal welfare but still say god gave us animals to eat. Lesley Angie Wright [angiewright]24 February 2002 00:05 Subject: Re: Eid al-AdhaAnd people wonder why some people become racistsAngie-"Jo" <HeartworkSaturday, February 23, 2002 1:29 PM Eid al-Adha> I've just received this :->> >The public sacrifice of animals marking the first day of the festival of> Eid al-Adha has provoked countrywide protests in Turkey.> >> >The Turkish media have expressed outrage that despite warnings from the> authorities, hundreds of thousands of animals have been cruellyslaughtered> while the country looks on.> >> >"Shame on you" and "Stop this" were some of Tuesday's headlines.> >> >Marking the end of the pilgrimage to Mecca, Eid is traditionallycelebrated> by sacrificing a sheep. But many animals are being killed in the streets,> rather than government designated sites.> >> >The daily Milliyet published photos of the slaughter on one of the> country's motorways under the headline: "This is the road to the EU,turned> into a blood-bath."> >>To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Tell him this is happening to people in war torn countries Children like him are losing parents like you . Children like him are losing sisters or becoming parallised themselves. It is tragic and we shouldn't laugh at their misery . If he can't see this, then just tell him it upsets you to hear it because you feel sorry for those parents who have lost their young children and that you don't want him to repeat it infront of you . Then try and ignore it if you hear him saying it with his friends . He might not want to be too different and maybe he can't really understand death and war still being so young - Lesley Dove Sunday, February 24, 2002 6:06 PM RE: Eid al-Adha I'm not sure if I understand this question, what do you mean by collateral damage? Why do I always feel that you are trying to trip me up? I We are having a problem with trying to teach Jonathan not to keep repeating a sick song some of his schoolfriends taught him. It goes something like this, "Bang bang you're dead, 50 bullets in your head..." He is still at the stage of thinking it is funny to sing that, probably more so if it winds us up. What do other parents here think? Should we ignore it, and not make a big deal of it, or keep telling him to stop? Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Why had he given blood then ??? (I guessed this as you gave his blood group ) Angie - " Peter " <Snowbow Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:31 PM Re: Eid al-Adha > Ian >> Pete Steele (Type O Negative) was accused of being racist because he didn't > like some coloured chap. His explanation was that he wasn't racist because > he hated all people alike. > >> http://us.click./iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/PVjolB/TM > ---~-> > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 Sorry Angie I've caused some confusion! I was just pointing out that you can hate a lot of people without being racist. Pete Steele is vocalist and bass player in a band called Type O Negative. JO > Why had he given blood then ??? (I guessed this as you gave his blood > group ) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2002 Report Share Posted February 24, 2002 How horrendous. Janey x The pope needs to get his act together and condemn the "religious " festivity that involves throwing goats from church towers . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2002 Report Share Posted February 25, 2002 > no one culture, nation, people, etc is necessarily more cruel then > another....humans just suck in general.... amen to that... > and, if these folks were truly following islam, they wouldn't be hurting > animals... indeed. The holy scripture of Islam, the Koran, forbids the " eating of dead animals, blood and flesh. " Chris X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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