An ode to pork

[Guest guest]

Very sad :-( I think that is more sad than someone who has never

been veggie/vegan. I presume him and some of the commenters were

never ethically vegan, but just did it because they thought it made

them look caring. There's no fathoming some people.

 

Jo

 

 

, Peter VV <swpgh01.t21 wrote:

>

> I hope this doesnt upset any of you, I just thought it interesting,

if a little sad....

> Try and read the comments...

> By Jon Dennis / vegetarian 12:05am

>

> Jay Rayner's spot on in his approach to vegetarian food. As a

fairly recent covert to meat eating, I now spend many a lunchtime

wolfing down what I regard as the best sandwich in London, Brindisa's

chorizo in a toasted crusty roll with skinned red peppers, rocket and

olive oil.

> I've just been shopping for some pork steaks which I'm looking

forward to cooking tonight as per the recipe in Thursday's Guardian.

And last week on my birthday, for a treat I went for lunch at the

carnivores' temple St John, a stone's throw from London's Smithfields

meat market.

> Roasted bone marrow, anyone?

> So, I enjoy my meat. But it was not always so. In my 20s, I was a

vegan. For 10 long years I eschewed the pleasures of the (animal)

flesh. After growing up on a traditional diet of meat-and-two-veg,

I'd become a vegetarian at 18.

> On holiday with some art student friends, I discovered it was

possible to eat what seemed then to be interesting food without

eating animals. For me it was a short journey from vegetarian to

vegan, which seemed ethically more consistent and had added radical

kudos. This was the 80s, when meat was usually poor quality factory-

farmed and as leftie students kicking against Thatcher's Britain, the

personal was always political.

> Returning to university, I taught myself a repertoire of sludgy

vegan meals, usually involving tins of tomatoes or kidney beans.

Since anyone cooking anything was a novelty, nights chez JD proved

popular, and pretty soon most of my friends had also taken up the

vegan cudgels.

> Leaving university to pursue a career in music, the rest of my

band were vegan, as were our road crew. We even had our footwear

supplied by the non-leather shop Vegetarian Shoes. Two of the band

attempted (and failed) to set up a vegan co-op along the lines of the

one Jay Rayner describes in Vauxhall.

> But when my band split up (musical and non-musical differences,

but none that were dietary) and I got a " proper " job in journalism, I

began to find it much harder to avoid eating dairy produce. A few

years followed as a vegetarian, feeling guilty about softening my

position and increasingly longing for meat and fish.

> I had several moments of clarity. One came at a wedding meal in

Sitges in Catalonia. My fellow guests, dozens of them, tucked in to

the most beautiful seafood I had ever seen, while I picked listlessly

at a particularly depressing salad. Similar experiences followed on

subsequent holidays, and I realised that my veggie days were numbered.

> I was sick of the boring recipes in my cookbooks. There was Vegan

Cooking For One - a particularly grim tome. Another - Cooking With

Stones, after a veggie restaurant in Wiltshire - featured drawings of

right-on 80s types with superior sneers. This came to represent

everything I didn't want to be. I was reading Nigel Slater, Jamie

Oliver, and I wanted to experience what they were offering.

> And it came to pass. When my now-wife (and then a vegetarian) and

I planned a weekend to Whitstable, there was no way we weren't going

to try the local specialities - oysters. I'd never had them before.

> A whole new world opened up. As a kid, seafood meant battered

cod, boil-in-the-bag haddock or crab paste. No wonder I gave it up.

Now I was able to buy fresh fish from foodie havens such as Borough

Market in London. With the aid of a Rick Stein book, I learned how to

deal with the slippery blighters and cooked dishes I'd never dreamed

I'd eat.

> That was about four years ago. Within a year or so I was eating

meat again. I think it was inadvertently eating roast potatoes cooked

in goose fat that did it. I'm still learning how to cook different

cuts of meat, and since I climbed off my moral high horse I've loved

every minute.

> But ... what about the ethics? I no longer wish to live by the

moral code of an 18-year-old living in the 80s. I still want to eat

ethically. I seek out quality ingredients that cause the minimum of

harm to the environment. I'm still working out how to do that, along

with everybody else.

> Most days I still don't eat any meat. What I refuse to do is eat

the sludgy bland veggie stodge that was a staple for me and my mates

in the 80s.

> Jay, I'm with you.

>

> Comments I've enjoyed both this post and the article by Jay.

> One thing I have always wondered: if the " you shouldn't eat meat

because it cruel " vegetarian brigade got their way and made us a

nation of strict vegetarians, what would we do with all the animals?

I suppose we'd have to kill them as we certainly couldn't have them

eating all our veggie supplies -- and we'd need all that pasture land

to plant more veggies, wouldn't we? So, mass slaughter would be the

name of the game!

> I'm not vegetarian but I do cook and eat a lot of vegetarian

dishes and I entirely agree that they do not have to be bland --

there is so much one can do with vegetables to make them really

great, just the other night I cooked a ton of ratatoulli and it was

great in this sweltering heat we have at the moment (I'm in Macau,

southern China).

> I'm an event organiser and just recently we had a group which

included a vegetarian Indian family -- the client had not informed us

of any special diet requirements. The lady running the hotel catering

the lunch, although Chinese by race, was born and brought up in

India. Within 20 minutes she had saved the day by producing three

different Southern Indian vegetarian dishes -- so appetising that the

meat eaters on the same table were all begging a taste. It's rare to

find a restaurant capable of handling a situation like this without

resorting to rice or salad.

> On the opposite side of the coin there was another group at the

same hotel last week with a vegetarian and again we hadn't been

informed. The group organiser just said " oh! don't bother about him,

he can just pick at the salads " -- my fiend once again rustled up a

tasty dish especially for him. He was thrilled.

> The other thing that always gets me is people who claim to be

vegetarian and then order fish! Since when was fish a vegetable?

Surely they should just call themselves non meat eaters -- but no,

most of them seem to think that there is some odd virtue in using the

word " vegetarian " .

> A good read, John, thank you.

> Cheers!

> Liz

> Posted by LizMacau on June 12, 2007 6:13 AM.

> Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

> Some indian-vegetarian restaurants show how delightfully tasty

vegetarian food can be.

> But the article brings up a very important point; vegetarians,

AVOID the continent! Or you will be seduced!

> Posted by woodframe on June 12, 2007 9:21 AM.

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> Nice post but I'd contend that Beppes on West Smithfield does

the best sandwich in London (and possibly the world). There's even

one without meat.

> Posted by SimonJeffery on June 12, 2007 11:16 AM.

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> I haven't eaten meat for 24 years, despite living in Germany

for the last 14. I agree, it certainly is more difficult to be veggie

when you live on the Continent. Not because of the likelihood of

seduction: in Germany I'm hardly likely to be tempted by meatballs,

or a hunk of ham served with a slice of bread, or even an enormous

sausage pertly sticking out of a dry breadbun. It's the suspicious

looks, the warnings that I will surely die if I don't come to my

senses and, above all, the need to fit in.

> On the other hand, I frequently find the non-meat stuff tends to

disappear first at barbecues and buffets, perhaps because people like

to try new things, or maybe it's the bright colours. Just don't call

it vegetarian, or they will avoid it out of fear of being brainwashed

by a radical cult.

> Posted by FionaLanfer on June 12, 2007 11:29 AM.

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> I've gone the other way - back to the non-meat eating ways of

my teenage years after subsequent years of meat-eating. I still eat

fish though, and I find I'm wavering, mainly over chorizo, and mainly

over Brindisa's chorizo. I'm going to Borough market on Friday and if

I cave in, I'm holding JD personally responsible.

> Posted by SusanSmillie on June 12, 2007 11:49 AM.

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> In the last year, I waved twenty years of being a vegetarian

good bye. I changed to eating meat because of persistant anaemia (and

before everyone tells me that you can get sufficient iron from a

vegatarian diet, I know that you should be able to to, but somehow

whatever I ate, I still didn't) and did it grudgingly.

> But it has been a total food revelation - meat is utterly,

utterly delicious. Eating out or round friends houses is not only

easier but it is tastier and more enjoyable.

> I'd not really had much interest in food - I ate heathily but

just found eating boring. It doesn't matter how many herbs or spices

are used, there is nothing on earth as tasty as cured meat or food

cooked using animal fats.

> And I'm surprised by my conversion. I was never militantly

against meat, I just didn't know how delicious it could be.

> Posted by ChairmanMeow on June 12, 2007 11:50 AM.

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> I'm another ex-vegan who now eats dairy, fish and the

occasional bacon sarnie. I just can't make the arguments for veganism

seem to have the power that they did for me when I was 18. Ageing and

deradicalisation, I guess. But I make myself feel better by

considering that it's not really an all or nothing thing with food -

every day your choices can have an impact - positive or negative - on

the lives of other people and animals. It's figuring out what those

impacts are that's not easy...

> And on the subject of vegan cookery books, who remembers Eva Batt?

> Posted by ksquared on June 12, 2007 12:52 PM.

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> Meat tastes nice - so what?

> Vegetarians have chosen not to eat meat because they have thought

about the implications that go beyond their own desires of

gratification.

> Self gratification is not always the best way to judge the merits

of an action (eating McDonalds, driving SUVs, wearing fur coats,

snorting lines of coke etc.).

> Taste is such a misleading and transient aspect of sustenance

anyway (McDonalds, Sunny Delight, Turkey Twizzlers etc.).

> Nobody has a monopoly on the truth and neither vegetarians nor

meat eaters are 100% right in all cases. What is important is to

think about all the issues and processes that have brought that meat

to your plate, research them, and make your own conclusions. The same

with fair trade coffee or buying fresh mangos in February.

> Many of the concerns that vegetarians have can be adequately

addressed whilst still eating meat (quantity of red meat eaten at a

time, organic meat, ethically slaughtered etc.) but arguments such

as " meat tastes good " or " its difficult because everyone else eats

meat " are weak arguments.

> Posted by Ringpeace on June 12, 2007 1:10 PM.

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> So what are we saying? Meat tastes nice. Badly cooked vegan

food isn't nice. And this seems to be about the sum of it. Not born

of a eureka moment then.

> As Dennis admits, becoming vegan meant little more than

appearing 'radical'; we should not be surprised therefore that, faced

with seafood, the ethics are straight out the window. Indeed if all

our ethical stances were based on the contentless notion of simply

wanting to be radical, rather then having arrived at a standpoint out

of an ethical urge or consideration then of course we would abandon

them when push came to shove. Or in Dennis' case, in front of the

barbeque.

> There is an absolutely ethical relationship between humans and

animals - we know that animals suffer because we suffer. Our moments

of clarity should come when we stand face to face with a live animal,

not when looking at 'beautiful seafood'.

> This article is dishonest because it treats animals as food

rather than as living beings and because it treats veganism as a

fashion or fad rather than an ethical position.

> (And of course no discussion of vegetarianism would be complete

without someone asking the absurd question 'what would we do with all

the animals?' (thanks LizMacau), based on the problem of everyone

becoming vegetarian simultaneously rather than gradually. Instead of

asking such odd and crazy questions, we ought to be debating how it

can ever be ethical to kill and eat a living being without absolute

necessity.)

> Posted by weshouldtalk on June 12, 2007 1:41 PM.

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> Well said Ringpeace.

> It's a peculiar thing how so many people's morals seem to decay as

they age. Or perhaps it's simply that the relevance of one's morals

seem to diminish in proportion to one's spending power. The author

seems to be suggesting that vegetarianism is fine for poor students,

but something that one moves " beyond " once one can afford to buy

organic meat (which is at least as inefficient a means of producing

food as " inorganic " meat).

> Presumably, by extension, it's also ok to contribute to the

overfishing of marine species, to fly to barbados for one's annual

holidays, oh and hang recycling and energy efficiency - after all the

Chinese and Indians are going to overtake us in a few years...

>

> Posted by SeanD on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM.

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> LizMacau - in response to your " what would we do with all the

animals? "

> Duh - they're only bred for meat and dairy so most of 'em wouldn't

exist in the first place. They certainly wouldn't be multiplying

unhindered and rampaging across the country (as most of the non-

veggies I had the misfortune to sit next to at dinner parties about

20 years ago used to love to claim).

> I really really fancy a Twix but can't have one til October or

something in case it's the first step on a slippery slope to foie

gras.

> Posted by ohplease on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM.

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> ksquared: Eva Batt ... yes! I used to swear by Eva Batt. There

was a lot of stuffing things like marrows, peppers etc with rice and

grains, as I recall.

> I wasn't a vegan for 10 years in order to appear radical - I

really believed in the rights of animals and agreed that humans

shouldn't see them as food. I changed my mind - I do now see them as

food.

> My morals haven't decayed with age, I just don't believe that I'm

making the world a better place by cooking like Eva Batt. There are a

lot more important issues in the world than animal rights.

> ohplease - I can recommend foie gras, it's delicious

> Posted by JonDennis on June 12, 2007 2:42 PM.

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> There are a lot of reasons why one shouldnt eat meat - not just

the pain to animal thing, but also the numerous dubious

production/manufacturing/employment conditions within the meat

industry, contribution to pollution through chemical use and

subsequent road/air miles for transportation to a supermarket or

ethical deli near you - apart from the first bit, sounds alot like

what happens with most fruit and veg tho hey?

> Eating meat is something that most people could argue til the

cows come home(to be slaughtered) most probably whilst sat at a

dinner tabel having consumed a lovely omnivorian meal. Its all about

eating ion moderation, sourcing as ethical as possible retailers and

coming up with brilliant arguments(possibly based on your health) as

to why you personally continue to eat meat.

> I eat meat because its nice and I like it and my hair falls out

if I dont.

> Posted by crabbers on June 12, 2007 3:52 PM.

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> " There are a lot more important issues in the world than

animals rights " -perhaps so, but there are also less important ones,

and I'm not aware that taking a stance on animal rights at a dietary

level prevents one from engaging with these other " more important "

issues. In short, it's not an either/or situation.

> I respect a person's right to choose their own diet. I believe

strongly that whether one is a vegan, vegetarian or omnivore, one

should make every effort to buy ethically produced food. Mr Dennis

appears to do this- good for him (not sure about the recommendation

of foie gras though...)

> However, I think it's somewhat unfortunate that this article

appears to be contrasting a meat-inclusive diet with bland, badly

cooked vegan fare. An omnivorous diet can also be sludgy and

unimaginative. It all depends how you do it.

> As a vegetarian myself who gave up eating meat in spite of

enjoying the taste, I have to agree that because something gives us

pleasure is not in itself a good enough reason to indulge in it. We

in the industrialised West don't need meat to survive or for optimum

health; it therefore has to be regarded as not a necessity but as a

habit, a luxury, on the same ethical level as sport hunting and non-

medical testing on animals. It isn't a " them or us " situation, and I

personally can't justify killing another living creature unless it's

really a direct choice between my survival and theirs.

> Posted by Argenta on June 12, 2007 3:58 PM.

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> Meat is murder! I know that yet i still eat it.

> conclusion- I don't care (enough)

> simple as that.

> There are enough things for me to fret about in my little life

than worrying over every aspect of what i eat. I generally try to get

good organic meat, that's enough for me.

> The health/nutrition point of view is more important to me than

the 'ethics' of what i'm eating; having a varied diet, cooking from

scratch etc. I tried being a vegetarian for a while in my uni days,

but my health suffered (anaemia- I know you can get it from veggies

but this kind of iron is much harder to absorb than the meat kind -

'heme iron' and 'non heme')- i concluded i just wasn't suited to a

non meat diet.

> Vegetarians/vegans: PLEASE don't preach to meat eaters! I very

much doubt you are perfect either. (eg: i know a vegan who smokes

like a chimney!, and another who spits...)

>

>

> Posted by Asia1976 on June 12, 2007 4:01 PM.

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> @Sean D

> Morals don't decay with age; experience informs us that the world

is not as black & white as we thought it was.

> Anyway, vegetarianism / veganism (or lack of) is driven by

personal beliefs, opinions, peccadilloes or dietary requirements, not

morals in a universal sense.

>

> Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 4:05 PM.

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> hmm .. but I care more about my own nutrition and pleasure than

I do about an animals life. There is no equivalence between an animal

and a human. As you would eat blackberries from a hedge, I would eat

rabbits from a field, just with a bit of cooking. In fact, if we were

stuck up the Andes with nothing to eat, my fellow guardian readers,

you might start looking tastier than you really are.

> Misguided ethics are another false religion, as you grow out of

loving baby Jesus, you will grow out of having this strange prejudice

against eating animals. Its like praying 5 times a day, it doen't

make you a better person, it just means you are doing something

irrational to make yourself feel better.

> I too was a vegetarian once, but you grow out of these phases,

thank Dawkins

> Posted by soldierpalmer on June 12, 2007 4:21 PM.

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> It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more

selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate

their boring jobs and they stop thinking about how they can give and

instead think about what they can get.

> It's the same reason that people shift to the right of the

political spectrum as they get older. They've had to slave through

years of the boredom and unpleasantness that life presents them with

and begin to demand their reward for it.

> Having lived in both India and China I know that animal free food

can be absolutely delicious. In China you can eat Tofu that has the

same texture as whichever meat the chef chooses to mimic (as opposed

to that terrible gooey mess they call tofu in the UK). In the UK

there simply isn't enough demand to create real innovation in the

vegetarian food market, although I think this is slowly changing with

more and more supermarket shelf space going to companies like

Cauldron.

> Meat eaters aren't morally bankrupt, they're simply as selfish as

middle managers who complain that taxes are too high. An opinion I

fully expect to hold in 10 years or so.

> And besides, the whole argument will be academic in 20 years time

when it's economically viable to make meat in laboratories.

> Posted by TomSS on June 12, 2007 4:30 PM.

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> I was a veggie for about 8 years and a vegan for 4 of those. I

became veggie for the same reasons most people do- the ethical reason

as well as the cruelty issue. I found that while I was a vegan I had

loads of energy, but like someone else's post, I didn't really enjoy

eating, and my favourite secret pleasures were almost always stuff I

wasn't supposed to be eating- chips from a chipper with onion rings,

or milk chocolate, and they were alsao really bad for me. I did (and

do) love lentils though.

> I fell off the vegan wagon quite dramatically, and it was on the

continent as well. My better half is Spanish, and the first time we

went to visit her family they (didn't know/didn't want to know/tried

to ignore the fact that..) I was vegan. Now, Im Irish, which means we

always eat whats put in front of us, no matter how scary it might

be.So I did, and that was it. I couldn't go back to veganism after

four courses (and three hours!) of fish and meat, which, by the way,

was absolutely yum.

> With reference to the other posts here, Guinness is the best way

I found to avoid anaemia, and vegetarianism is great, its the meat

eaters who obsess about not eating meat, and then scoff all the salad

at barbecues.

> But hey, eating meat ethically can be just as much fun and flavour

as not eating it. I think some meat eaters should just give eating

vegetables and pulses a try, ironically, like they do on the

continent. (although none of the people who post here seem to be part

of that meat and meat only brigade)I think that a balance in both

portions and meat/veg is needed.

> oh, and I too know a vegan who spits, picks his nose, is

thoroughly disgusting at dinner parties (talking about slaughtered

flesh etc) and hates fair trade ( " why should I pay more cos they're

poor! " ), so its not all black and white...

> And chorizo is lovely, by the way.

> Posted by keetredkid on June 12, 2007 5:02 PM.

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> @TomSS

> And, why oh why, is eating meat selfish?

> Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 5:46 PM.

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> Too many " meat tastes nice, so I eat it " posts for comfort. I

also fail to see how " organic " meat is slaughtered any more humanely

than " inorganic " . This is not a self-gratification issue, it is a

straight forward ethical one. Choose to eat meat and you choose to

support scenes such as the one in the photo - a pig hanging from

chains. Go see a slaughter house, go watch geese being force fed

corn, and then rave about the choice cuts and marvellous foie gras.

I'm glad that some meat lovers feel so strongly about their own

health that they have opted out of the normal production chain, but a

little more thought about the live animal's health and welfare might

be appropriate as well. " Organic " doesn't necessarily mean a cage-

free or free roaming life style, nor does it mean humane slaughter

necessarily (if such a thing exists). You can also argue that an

animal's life is not as sacred as a humans, or that " dominion over "

means you can do what you like with an animal, but

> that still doesn't justify the abnormal life of caged chickens and

veal calves, nor the inhumane aspects of the slaughterhouse.

> I know about killing animals. My wife and I run an equine rescue

here in the States, and have had to experience the euthanizing of

some of our rescues. Done humanely this is not a production line

process, and there is a universal empathy across the other horses

when it takes place, however much we hide what is going on. I do wish

that you " I eat meat because it tastes good " people would find out a

bit more about the chain of events that leads to that filet mignon on

your plate; but maybe that would take away the pleasure and that is

what self-gratification is all about isn't it!

> Oh, and by the way, I can make a vegitarian chilli con carne that

can knock your socks off, and yes my mouth still waters at the

thought of a real bacon butty, I just relish the thought instead of

the act.

>

> Posted by whitebird on June 12, 2007 5:48 PM.

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> " It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more

selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate

their boring jobs and... "

> These are signs of selflesness, silly-billy. Once you have kids

you stop existing for yourself. Once you get a mortgage you're tied

down. No drastic career changes or sudden whimsical trips possible.

You get stuck in a boring job you hate because you have obligations

to others and not only to yourself (although I remember having far

worse jobs when I was young).

> Anyway, meat is excellent, very tasty.

> In moral terms it's better too. At least all those dead animals

are going to good use. Better than just killing off and leaving to

rot all the herds of wild cows and sheep, chickens and rats that

would otherwise invade out veggie-future grain fields. What a cruel

waste that would be! Maybe we could just fence them out and not

directly kill them though, eh? Starve them to death, deny them their

birthright. Animal rights, don't deny our grainfields to our rat

brothers and sisters.

> Posted by farofa on June 12, 2007 11:41 PM.

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> @Whitebird.

> 1. 'Ethical choice' - only within your own personal ethical

framework, & not that of the society in which I live. Don't confuse

universal ethics with personal beliefs - in my world it is considered

unethical to mistreat animals, but ethical to kill them to eat (in

general of course).

> 2. The pig's not alive when hanging from the chains.

> 3. I'm very glad that you're euthanising those horses humanely.

Comparing that with killing for food production is hardly helpful

however.

> Just don't preach to me from the pulpit of your own beliefs, & I

won't trouble you with mine.

> Posted by HughTower on June 13, 2007 10:21 AM.

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> In the comments above, meat eating is compared unfavourably

with driving an SUV, long haul flying & even snorting cocaine. And

apparently, meat eaters care not a bit about energy efficiency or

recycling. Yet one vegatarian bemoans the fact that meat eaters might

avoid overtly vegetarian food " for fear of being brainwashed by a

radical cult " . I wonder why?

> Posted by Dan73 on June 13, 2007 11:56 AM.

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>

>

>

> Peter H

>

>

>

>

> The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email

address from your Internet provider.

>

[Guest guest]

one of those articles that i get part way thru before i have to get up and walk away before i start screaming.............

 

Peter VV Jun 13, 2007 2:07 PM Re: Re: An ode to pork

 

 

 

 

I hope this doesnt upset any of you, I just thought it interesting, if a little sad....

Try and read the comments...

By Jon Dennis / vegetarian 12:05am

 

Jay Rayner's spot on in his approach to vegetarian food. As a fairly recent covert to meat eating, I now spend many a lunchtime wolfing down what I regard as the best sandwich in London, Brindisa's chorizo in a toasted crusty roll with skinned red peppers, rocket and olive oil.

I've just been shopping for some pork steaks which I'm looking forward to cooking tonight as per the recipe in Thursday's Guardian. And last week on my birthday, for a treat I went for lunch at the carnivores' temple St John, a stone's throw from London's Smithfields meat market.

Roasted bone marrow, anyone?

So, I enjoy my meat. But it was not always so. In my 20s, I was a vegan. For 10 long years I eschewed the pleasures of the (animal) flesh. After growing up on a traditional diet of meat-and-two-veg, I'd become a vegetarian at 18.

On holiday with some art student friends, I discovered it was possible to eat what seemed then to be interesting food without eating animals. For me it was a short journey from vegetarian to vegan, which seemed ethically more consistent and had added radical kudos. This was the 80s, when meat was usually poor quality factory-farmed and as leftie students kicking against Thatcher's Britain, the personal was always political.

Returning to university, I taught myself a repertoire of sludgy vegan meals, usually involving tins of tomatoes or kidney beans. Since anyone cooking anything was a novelty, nights chez JD proved popular, and pretty soon most of my friends had also taken up the vegan cudgels.

Leaving university to pursue a career in music, the rest of my band were vegan, as were our road crew. We even had our footwear supplied by the non-leather shop Vegetarian Shoes. Two of the band attempted (and failed) to set up a vegan co-op along the lines of the one Jay Rayner describes in Vauxhall.

But when my band split up (musical and non-musical differences, but none that were dietary) and I got a "proper" job in journalism, I began to find it much harder to avoid eating dairy produce. A few years followed as a vegetarian, feeling guilty about softening my position and increasingly longing for meat and fish.

I had several moments of clarity. One came at a wedding meal in Sitges in Catalonia. My fellow guests, dozens of them, tucked in to the most beautiful seafood I had ever seen, while I picked listlessly at a particularly depressing salad. Similar experiences followed on subsequent holidays, and I realised that my veggie days were numbered.

I was sick of the boring recipes in my cookbooks. There was Vegan Cooking For One - a particularly grim tome. Another - Cooking With Stones, after a veggie restaurant in Wiltshire - featured drawings of right-on 80s types with superior sneers. This came to represent everything I didn't want to be. I was reading Nigel Slater, Jamie Oliver, and I wanted to experience what they were offering.

And it came to pass. When my now-wife (and then a vegetarian) and I planned a weekend to Whitstable, there was no way we weren't going to try the local specialities - oysters. I'd never had them before.

A whole new world opened up. As a kid, seafood meant battered cod, boil-in-the-bag haddock or crab paste. No wonder I gave it up. Now I was able to buy fresh fish from foodie havens such as Borough Market in London. With the aid of a Rick Stein book, I learned how to deal with the slippery blighters and cooked dishes I'd never dreamed I'd eat.

That was about four years ago. Within a year or so I was eating meat again. I think it was inadvertently eating roast potatoes cooked in goose fat that did it. I'm still learning how to cook different cuts of meat, and since I climbed off my moral high horse I've loved every minute.

But ... what about the ethics? I no longer wish to live by the moral code of an 18-year-old living in the 80s. I still want to eat ethically. I seek out quality ingredients that cause the minimum of harm to the environment. I'm still working out how to do that, along with everybody else.

Most days I still don't eat any meat. What I refuse to do is eat the sludgy bland veggie stodge that was a staple for me and my mates in the 80s.

Jay, I'm with you.

 

Comments

 

I've enjoyed both this post and the article by Jay.

One thing I have always wondered: if the "you shouldn't eat meat because it cruel" vegetarian brigade got their way and made us a nation of strict vegetarians, what would we do with all the animals? I suppose we'd have to kill them as we certainly couldn't have them eating all our veggie supplies -- and we'd need all that pasture land to plant more veggies, wouldn't we? So, mass slaughter would be the name of the game!

I'm not vegetarian but I do cook and eat a lot of vegetarian dishes and I entirely agree that they do not have to be bland -- there is so much one can do with vegetables to make them really great, just the other night I cooked a ton of ratatoulli and it was great in this sweltering heat we have at the moment (I'm in Macau, southern China).

I'm an event organiser and just recently we had a group which included a vegetarian Indian family -- the client had not informed us of any special diet requirements. The lady running the hotel catering the lunch, although Chinese by race, was born and brought up in India. Within 20 minutes she had saved the day by producing three different Southern Indian vegetarian dishes -- so appetising that the meat eaters on the same table were all begging a taste. It's rare to find a restaurant capable of handling a situation like this without resorting to rice or salad.

On the opposite side of the coin there was another group at the same hotel last week with a vegetarian and again we hadn't been informed. The group organiser just said "oh! don't bother about him, he can just pick at the salads" -- my fiend once again rustled up a tasty dish especially for him. He was thrilled.

The other thing that always gets me is people who claim to be vegetarian and then order fish! Since when was fish a vegetable? Surely they should just call themselves non meat eaters -- but no, most of them seem to think that there is some odd virtue in using the word "vegetarian".

A good read, John, thank you.

Cheers!LizPosted by LizMacau on June 12, 2007 6:13 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Some indian-vegetarian restaurants show how delightfully tasty vegetarian food can be.

But the article brings up a very important point; vegetarians, AVOID the continent! Or you will be seduced! Posted by woodframe on June 12, 2007 9:21 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Nice post but I'd contend that Beppes on West Smithfield does the best sandwich in London (and possibly the world). There's even one without meat.Posted by SimonJeffery on June 12, 2007 11:16 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

I haven't eaten meat for 24 years, despite living in Germany for the last 14. I agree, it certainly is more difficult to be veggie when you live on the Continent. Not because of the likelihood of seduction: in Germany I'm hardly likely to be tempted by meatballs, or a hunk of ham served with a slice of bread, or even an enormous sausage pertly sticking out of a dry breadbun. It's the suspicious looks, the warnings that I will surely die if I don't come to my senses and, above all, the need to fit in.

On the other hand, I frequently find the non-meat stuff tends to disappear first at barbecues and buffets, perhaps because people like to try new things, or maybe it's the bright colours. Just don't call it vegetarian, or they will avoid it out of fear of being brainwashed by a radical cult.Posted by FionaLanfer on June 12, 2007 11:29 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

I've gone the other way - back to the non-meat eating ways of my teenage years after subsequent years of meat-eating. I still eat fish though, and I find I'm wavering, mainly over chorizo, and mainly over Brindisa's chorizo. I'm going to Borough market on Friday and if I cave in, I'm holding JD personally responsible.Posted by SusanSmillie on June 12, 2007 11:49 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

In the last year, I waved twenty years of being a vegetarian good bye. I changed to eating meat because of persistant anaemia (and before everyone tells me that you can get sufficient iron from a vegatarian diet, I know that you should be able to to, but somehow whatever I ate, I still didn't) and did it grudgingly.

But it has been a total food revelation - meat is utterly, utterly delicious. Eating out or round friends houses is not only easier but it is tastier and more enjoyable.

I'd not really had much interest in food - I ate heathily but just found eating boring. It doesn't matter how many herbs or spices are used, there is nothing on earth as tasty as cured meat or food cooked using animal fats.

And I'm surprised by my conversion. I was never militantly against meat, I just didn't know how delicious it could be.Posted by ChairmanMeow on June 12, 2007 11:50 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

I'm another ex-vegan who now eats dairy, fish and the occasional bacon sarnie. I just can't make the arguments for veganism seem to have the power that they did for me when I was 18. Ageing and deradicalisation, I guess. But I make myself feel better by considering that it's not really an all or nothing thing with food - every day your choices can have an impact - positive or negative - on the lives of other people and animals. It's figuring out what those impacts are that's not easy...

And on the subject of vegan cookery books, who remembers Eva Batt?Posted by ksquared on June 12, 2007 12:52 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Meat tastes nice - so what?Vegetarians have chosen not to eat meat because they have thought about the implications that go beyond their own desires of gratification. Self gratification is not always the best way to judge the merits of an action (eating McDonalds, driving SUVs, wearing fur coats, snorting lines of coke etc.). Taste is such a misleading and transient aspect of sustenance anyway (McDonalds, Sunny Delight, Turkey Twizzlers etc.).

Nobody has a monopoly on the truth and neither vegetarians nor meat eaters are 100% right in all cases. What is important is to think about all the issues and processes that have brought that meat to your plate, research them, and make your own conclusions. The same with fair trade coffee or buying fresh mangos in February.

Many of the concerns that vegetarians have can be adequately addressed whilst still eating meat (quantity of red meat eaten at a time, organic meat, ethically slaughtered etc.) but arguments such as "meat tastes good" or "its difficult because everyone else eats meat" are weak arguments.Posted by Ringpeace on June 12, 2007 1:10 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

So what are we saying? Meat tastes nice. Badly cooked vegan food isn't nice. And this seems to be about the sum of it. Not born of a eureka moment then.

As Dennis admits, becoming vegan meant little more than appearing 'radical'; we should not be surprised therefore that, faced with seafood, the ethics are straight out the window. Indeed if all our ethical stances were based on the contentless notion of simply wanting to be radical, rather then having arrived at a standpoint out of an ethical urge or consideration then of course we would abandon them when push came to shove. Or in Dennis' case, in front of the barbeque.

There is an absolutely ethical relationship between humans and animals - we know that animals suffer because we suffer. Our moments of clarity should come when we stand face to face with a live animal, not when looking at 'beautiful seafood'.

This article is dishonest because it treats animals as food rather than as living beings and because it treats veganism as a fashion or fad rather than an ethical position.

(And of course no discussion of vegetarianism would be complete without someone asking the absurd question 'what would we do with all the animals?' (thanks LizMacau), based on the problem of everyone becoming vegetarian simultaneously rather than gradually. Instead of asking such odd and crazy questions, we ought to be debating how it can ever be ethical to kill and eat a living being without absolute necessity.) Posted by weshouldtalk on June 12, 2007 1:41 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Well said Ringpeace.It's a peculiar thing how so many people's morals seem to decay as they age. Or perhaps it's simply that the relevance of one's morals seem to diminish in proportion to one's spending power. The author seems to be suggesting that vegetarianism is fine for poor students, but something that one moves "beyond" once one can afford to buy organic meat (which is at least as inefficient a means of producing food as "inorganic" meat). Presumably, by extension, it's also ok to contribute to the overfishing of marine species, to fly to barbados for one's annual holidays, oh and hang recycling and energy efficiency - after all the Chinese and Indians are going to overtake us in a few years...Posted by SeanD on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

LizMacau - in response to your "what would we do with all the animals?"Duh - they're only bred for meat and dairy so most of 'em wouldn't exist in the first place. They certainly wouldn't be multiplying unhindered and rampaging across the country (as most of the non-veggies I had the misfortune to sit next to at dinner parties about 20 years ago used to love to claim).

I really really fancy a Twix but can't have one til October or something in case it's the first step on a slippery slope to foie gras.Posted by ohplease on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

ksquared: Eva Batt ... yes! I used to swear by Eva Batt. There was a lot of stuffing things like marrows, peppers etc with rice and grains, as I recall.

I wasn't a vegan for 10 years in order to appear radical - I really believed in the rights of animals and agreed that humans shouldn't see them as food. I changed my mind - I do now see them as food.

My morals haven't decayed with age, I just don't believe that I'm making the world a better place by cooking like Eva Batt. There are a lot more important issues in the world than animal rights.

ohplease - I can recommend foie gras, it's deliciousPosted by JonDennis on June 12, 2007 2:42 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

There are a lot of reasons why one shouldnt eat meat - not just the pain to animal thing, but also the numerous dubious production/manufacturing/employment conditions within the meat industry, contribution to pollution through chemical use and subsequent road/air miles for transportation to a supermarket or ethical deli near you - apart from the first bit, sounds alot like what happens with most fruit and veg tho hey?

Eating meat is something that most people could argue til the cows come home(to be slaughtered) most probably whilst sat at a dinner tabel having consumed a lovely omnivorian meal. Its all about eating ion moderation, sourcing as ethical as possible retailers and coming up with brilliant arguments(possibly based on your health) as to why you personally continue to eat meat.

I eat meat because its nice and I like it and my hair falls out if I dont.Posted by crabbers on June 12, 2007 3:52 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

"There are a lot more important issues in the world than animals rights" -perhaps so, but there are also less important ones, and I'm not aware that taking a stance on animal rights at a dietary level prevents one from engaging with these other "more important" issues. In short, it's not an either/or situation.

I respect a person's right to choose their own diet. I believe strongly that whether one is a vegan, vegetarian or omnivore, one should make every effort to buy ethically produced food. Mr Dennis appears to do this- good for him (not sure about the recommendation of foie gras though...)

However, I think it's somewhat unfortunate that this article appears to be contrasting a meat-inclusive diet with bland, badly cooked vegan fare. An omnivorous diet can also be sludgy and unimaginative. It all depends how you do it.

As a vegetarian myself who gave up eating meat in spite of enjoying the taste, I have to agree that because something gives us pleasure is not in itself a good enough reason to indulge in it. We in the industrialised West don't need meat to survive or for optimum health; it therefore has to be regarded as not a necessity but as a habit, a luxury, on the same ethical level as sport hunting and non-medical testing on animals. It isn't a "them or us" situation, and I personally can't justify killing another living creature unless it's really a direct choice between my survival and theirs. Posted by Argenta on June 12, 2007 3:58 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Meat is murder! I know that yet i still eat it.conclusion- I don't care (enough)simple as that.

There are enough things for me to fret about in my little life than worrying over every aspect of what i eat. I generally try to get good organic meat, that's enough for me.

The health/nutrition point of view is more important to me than the 'ethics' of what i'm eating; having a varied diet, cooking from scratch etc. I tried being a vegetarian for a while in my uni days, but my health suffered (anaemia- I know you can get it from veggies but this kind of iron is much harder to absorb than the meat kind -'heme iron' and 'non heme')- i concluded i just wasn't suited to a non meat diet.

Vegetarians/vegans: PLEASE don't preach to meat eaters! I very much doubt you are perfect either. (eg: i know a vegan who smokes like a chimney!, and another who spits...)Posted by Asia1976 on June 12, 2007 4:01 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

@Sean D

Morals don't decay with age; experience informs us that the world is not as black & white as we thought it was.

Anyway, vegetarianism / veganism (or lack of) is driven by personal beliefs, opinions, peccadilloes or dietary requirements, not morals in a universal sense.Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 4:05 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

hmm .. but I care more about my own nutrition and pleasure than I do about an animals life. There is no equivalence between an animal and a human. As you would eat blackberries from a hedge, I would eat rabbits from a field, just with a bit of cooking. In fact, if we were stuck up the Andes with nothing to eat, my fellow guardian readers, you might start looking tastier than you really are. Misguided ethics are another false religion, as you grow out of loving baby Jesus, you will grow out of having this strange prejudice against eating animals. Its like praying 5 times a day, it doen't make you a better person, it just means you are doing something irrational to make yourself feel better.I too was a vegetarian once, but you grow out of these phases, thank DawkinsPosted by soldierpalmer on June 12, 2007 4:21 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate their boring jobs and they stop thinking about how they can give and instead think about what they can get.

It's the same reason that people shift to the right of the political spectrum as they get older. They've had to slave through years of the boredom and unpleasantness that life presents them with and begin to demand their reward for it.

Having lived in both India and China I know that animal free food can be absolutely delicious. In China you can eat Tofu that has the same texture as whichever meat the chef chooses to mimic (as opposed to that terrible gooey mess they call tofu in the UK). In the UK there simply isn't enough demand to create real innovation in the vegetarian food market, although I think this is slowly changing with more and more supermarket shelf space going to companies like Cauldron.

Meat eaters aren't morally bankrupt, they're simply as selfish as middle managers who complain that taxes are too high. An opinion I fully expect to hold in 10 years or so.

And besides, the whole argument will be academic in 20 years time when it's economically viable to make meat in laboratories.Posted by TomSS on June 12, 2007 4:30 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

I was a veggie for about 8 years and a vegan for 4 of those. I became veggie for the same reasons most people do- the ethical reason as well as the cruelty issue. I found that while I was a vegan I had loads of energy, but like someone else's post, I didn't really enjoy eating, and my favourite secret pleasures were almost always stuff I wasn't supposed to be eating- chips from a chipper with onion rings, or milk chocolate, and they were alsao really bad for me. I did (and do) love lentils though.

I fell off the vegan wagon quite dramatically, and it was on the continent as well. My better half is Spanish, and the first time we went to visit her family they (didn't know/didn't want to know/tried to ignore the fact that..) I was vegan. Now, Im Irish, which means we always eat whats put in front of us, no matter how scary it might be.So I did, and that was it. I couldn't go back to veganism after four courses (and three hours!) of fish and meat, which, by the way, was absolutely yum.

With reference to the other posts here, Guinness is the best way I found to avoid anaemia, and vegetarianism is great, its the meat eaters who obsess about not eating meat, and then scoff all the salad at barbecues. But hey, eating meat ethically can be just as much fun and flavour as not eating it. I think some meat eaters should just give eating vegetables and pulses a try, ironically, like they do on the continent. (although none of the people who post here seem to be part of that meat and meat only brigade)I think that a balance in both portions and meat/veg is needed.

oh, and I too know a vegan who spits, picks his nose, is thoroughly disgusting at dinner parties (talking about slaughtered flesh etc) and hates fair trade ("why should I pay more cos they're poor!"), so its not all black and white...

And chorizo is lovely, by the way.Posted by keetredkid on June 12, 2007 5:02 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

@TomSS

And, why oh why, is eating meat selfish?Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 5:46 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

Too many "meat tastes nice, so I eat it" posts for comfort. I also fail to see how "organic" meat is slaughtered any more humanely than "inorganic". This is not a self-gratification issue, it is a straight forward ethical one. Choose to eat meat and you choose to support scenes such as the one in the photo - a pig hanging from chains. Go see a slaughter house, go watch geese being force fed corn, and then rave about the choice cuts and marvellous foie gras. I'm glad that some meat lovers feel so strongly about their own health that they have opted out of the normal production chain, but a little more thought about the live animal's health and welfare might be appropriate as well. "Organic" doesn't necessarily mean a cage-free or free roaming life style, nor does it mean humane slaughter necessarily (if such a thing exists). You can also argue that an animal's life is not as sacred as a humans, or that "dominion over" means you can do what you like with an animal, but that still doesn't justify the abnormal life of caged chickens and veal calves, nor the inhumane aspects of the slaughterhouse.I know about killing animals. My wife and I run an equine rescue here in the States, and have had to experience the euthanizing of some of our rescues. Done humanely this is not a production line process, and there is a universal empathy across the other horses when it takes place, however much we hide what is going on. I do wish that you "I eat meat because it tastes good" people would find out a bit more about the chain of events that leads to that filet mignon on your plate; but maybe that would take away the pleasure and that is what self-gratification is all about isn't it!Oh, and by the way, I can make a vegitarian chilli con carne that can knock your socks off, and yes my mouth still waters at the thought of a real bacon butty, I just relish the thought instead of the act. Posted by whitebird on June 12, 2007 5:48 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

"It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate their boring jobs and..."

These are signs of selflesness, silly-billy. Once you have kids you stop existing for yourself. Once you get a mortgage you're tied down. No drastic career changes or sudden whimsical trips possible. You get stuck in a boring job you hate because you have obligations to others and not only to yourself (although I remember having far worse jobs when I was young).

Anyway, meat is excellent, very tasty.

In moral terms it's better too. At least all those dead animals are going to good use. Better than just killing off and leaving to rot all the herds of wild cows and sheep, chickens and rats that would otherwise invade out veggie-future grain fields. What a cruel waste that would be! Maybe we could just fence them out and not directly kill them though, eh? Starve them to death, deny them their birthright. Animal rights, don't deny our grainfields to our rat brothers and sisters.Posted by farofa on June 12, 2007 11:41 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

@Whitebird.

1. 'Ethical choice' - only within your own personal ethical framework, & not that of the society in which I live. Don't confuse universal ethics with personal beliefs - in my world it is considered unethical to mistreat animals, but ethical to kill them to eat (in general of course).

2. The pig's not alive when hanging from the chains.

3. I'm very glad that you're euthanising those horses humanely. Comparing that with killing for food production is hardly helpful however.

Just don't preach to me from the pulpit of your own beliefs, & I won't trouble you with mine.Posted by HughTower on June 13, 2007 10:21 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

 

In the comments above, meat eating is compared unfavourably with driving an SUV, long haul flying & even snorting cocaine. And apparently, meat eaters care not a bit about energy efficiency or recycling. Yet one vegatarian bemoans the fact that meat eaters might avoid overtly vegetarian food "for fear of being brainwashed by a radical cult". I wonder why?Posted by Dan73 on June 13, 2007 11:56 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.

Peter H

 

 

 

The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

 

 

When I see the price that you pay

I don't wanna grow up

I don't ever want to be that way

I don't wanna grow up

Seems that folks turn into things

that they never want

[Guest guest]

Ah , so it had the desired effect then................You should have read the comments at the bottom. The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: one of those articles that i get part way thru before i have to get up and walk away before i start screaming............. Peter VV Jun 13, 2007 2:07 PM To:

Re: Re: An ode to pork I hope this doesnt upset any of you, I just thought it interesting, if a little sad.... Try and read the comments... By Jon Dennis / vegetarian 12:05am Jay Rayner's spot on in his approach to vegetarian food. As

a fairly recent covert to meat eating, I now spend many a lunchtime wolfing down what I regard as the best sandwich in London, Brindisa's chorizo in a toasted crusty roll with skinned red peppers, rocket and olive oil. I've just been shopping for some pork steaks which I'm looking forward to cooking tonight as per the recipe in Thursday's Guardian. And last week on my birthday, for a treat I went for lunch at the carnivores' temple St John, a stone's throw from London's Smithfields meat market. Roasted bone marrow, anyone? So, I enjoy my meat. But it was not always so. In my

20s, I was a vegan. For 10 long years I eschewed the pleasures of the (animal) flesh. After growing up on a traditional diet of meat-and-two-veg, I'd become a vegetarian at 18. On holiday with some art student friends, I discovered it was possible to eat what seemed then to be interesting food without eating animals. For me it was a short journey from vegetarian to vegan, which seemed ethically more consistent and had added radical kudos. This was the 80s, when meat was usually poor quality factory-farmed and as leftie students kicking against Thatcher's Britain, the personal was always political. Returning to university, I taught myself a repertoire of sludgy vegan meals, usually involving tins of tomatoes or kidney beans. Since anyone cooking anything was a novelty, nights chez JD proved popular, and pretty soon most of my friends had also taken up the vegan cudgels. Leaving university to pursue a career in music, the rest of my band were vegan, as were our road crew. We even had our footwear supplied by the non-leather shop Vegetarian Shoes. Two of the band attempted (and failed) to set up a vegan co-op along the lines of the one Jay Rayner describes in Vauxhall. But when my band split up (musical and non-musical differences, but none that were dietary) and I got a "proper" job in journalism, I began to find it much harder to avoid eating dairy produce. A few years followed as a vegetarian, feeling guilty about softening my position and increasingly longing for meat and fish. I had several moments of clarity. One came at a wedding meal in Sitges in Catalonia. My fellow guests, dozens of them,

tucked in to the most beautiful seafood I had ever seen, while I picked listlessly at a particularly depressing salad. Similar experiences followed on subsequent holidays, and I realised that my veggie days were numbered. I was sick of the boring recipes in my cookbooks. There was Vegan Cooking For One - a particularly grim tome. Another - Cooking With Stones, after a veggie restaurant in Wiltshire - featured drawings of right-on 80s types with superior sneers. This came to represent everything I didn't want to be. I was reading Nigel Slater, Jamie Oliver, and I wanted to experience what they were offering. And it came to pass. When my now-wife (and then a vegetarian) and I planned a weekend to Whitstable, there

was no way we weren't going to try the local specialities - oysters. I'd never had them before. A whole new world opened up. As a kid, seafood meant battered cod, boil-in-the-bag haddock or crab paste. No wonder I gave it up. Now I was able to buy fresh fish from foodie havens such as Borough Market in London. With the aid of a Rick Stein book, I learned how to deal with the slippery blighters and cooked dishes I'd never dreamed I'd eat. That was about four years ago. Within a year or so I was eating meat again. I think it was inadvertently eating roast potatoes cooked in goose fat that did it. I'm still learning how to cook different cuts of meat, and since I climbed off my moral high horse I've loved every minute. But ... what about the ethics? I no longer wish to live by the moral code of an 18-year-old living in the 80s. I still want to eat ethically. I seek out quality ingredients that cause the minimum of harm to the

environment. I'm still working out how to do that, along with everybody else. Most days I still don't eat any meat. What I refuse to do is eat the sludgy bland veggie stodge that was a staple for me and my mates in the 80s. Jay, I'm with you. Comments I've enjoyed both this post and the article by Jay. One thing I have always wondered: if the "you shouldn't eat meat because it cruel" vegetarian brigade got their way and made us a nation of strict vegetarians, what would we do with all the animals? I suppose we'd have to kill them as we certainly couldn't have them eating all our veggie supplies -- and we'd need all that pasture land to plant more veggies, wouldn't we? So, mass slaughter would be the name of the game! I'm not vegetarian but I do cook and eat a lot of vegetarian dishes and I entirely agree that they do not have to be bland -- there is so

much one can do with vegetables to make them really great, just the other night I cooked a ton of ratatoulli and it was great in this sweltering heat we have at the moment (I'm in Macau, southern China). I'm an event organiser and just recently we had a group which included a vegetarian Indian family -- the client had not informed us of any special diet requirements. The lady running the hotel catering the lunch, although Chinese by race, was born and brought up in India. Within 20 minutes she had saved the day by producing three different Southern Indian vegetarian dishes -- so appetising that the meat eaters on the same table were all begging a taste. It's rare to find a restaurant capable of handling a situation like this without resorting to rice or salad. On the opposite side of the coin there was another group at the same hotel last week with a vegetarian and again we hadn't been informed. The group organiser just said "oh! don't bother about

him, he can just pick at the salads" -- my fiend once again rustled up a tasty dish especially for him. He was thrilled. The other thing that always gets me is people who claim to be vegetarian and then order fish! Since when was fish a vegetable? Surely they should just call themselves non meat eaters -- but no, most of them seem to think that there is some odd virtue in using the word "vegetarian". A good read, John, thank you. Cheers!LizPosted by LizMacau on June 12, 2007 6:13 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this

comment. Some indian-vegetarian restaurants show how delightfully tasty vegetarian food can be. But the article brings up a very important point; vegetarians, AVOID the continent! Or you will be seduced! Posted by woodframe on June 12, 2007 9:21 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Nice post but I'd contend that Beppes on West Smithfield does the best sandwich in London (and possibly the world). There's even one without meat.Posted by SimonJeffery on June 12, 2007 11:16 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. I haven't eaten meat for 24 years, despite living in Germany for the last 14. I agree, it certainly is more difficult to be veggie when you live on the Continent. Not because of the likelihood of seduction: in Germany I'm hardly likely to be tempted by meatballs, or a hunk of ham served with a slice of bread, or even an enormous sausage pertly sticking out of a dry breadbun. It's the suspicious looks, the warnings that I will surely die if I don't

come to my senses and, above all, the need to fit in. On the other hand, I frequently find the non-meat stuff tends to disappear first at barbecues and buffets, perhaps because people like to try new things, or maybe it's the bright colours. Just don't call it vegetarian, or they will avoid it out of fear of being brainwashed by a radical cult.Posted by FionaLanfer on June 12, 2007 11:29 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. I've gone the other way - back to the non-meat eating ways of my teenage years after

subsequent years of meat-eating. I still eat fish though, and I find I'm wavering, mainly over chorizo, and mainly over Brindisa's chorizo. I'm going to Borough market on Friday and if I cave in, I'm holding JD personally responsible.Posted by SusanSmillie on June 12, 2007 11:49 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. In the last year, I waved twenty years of being a vegetarian good bye. I changed to eating meat because of persistant anaemia (and before everyone tells me that you can get sufficient iron from a vegatarian

diet, I know that you should be able to to, but somehow whatever I ate, I still didn't) and did it grudgingly. But it has been a total food revelation - meat is utterly, utterly delicious. Eating out or round friends houses is not only easier but it is tastier and more enjoyable. I'd not really had much interest in food - I ate heathily but just found eating boring. It doesn't matter how many herbs or spices are used, there is nothing on earth as tasty as cured meat or food cooked using animal fats. And I'm surprised by my conversion. I was never militantly against meat, I just didn't know how delicious it could be.Posted by ChairmanMeow on June 12, 2007 11:50 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. I'm another ex-vegan who now eats dairy, fish and the occasional bacon sarnie. I just can't make the arguments for veganism seem to have the power that they did for me when I was 18. Ageing and deradicalisation, I guess. But I make myself feel better by considering that it's not really an all or nothing thing with food - every day your choices can have an impact - positive or negative - on the lives of other people and animals. It's figuring out what those impacts are that's not easy... And on the subject of vegan cookery books, who remembers Eva Batt?Posted by ksquared on June 12, 2007 12:52 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Meat tastes nice - so what?Vegetarians have chosen not to eat meat because they have thought about the implications that go beyond their own desires of gratification. Self gratification is not always the best way to judge the merits of an action (eating McDonalds, driving SUVs, wearing fur coats, snorting lines of coke etc.). Taste is such a misleading and transient aspect of sustenance anyway (McDonalds, Sunny Delight, Turkey Twizzlers etc.). Nobody has a monopoly on the truth and neither vegetarians nor meat eaters are 100% right in all cases.

What is important is to think about all the issues and processes that have brought that meat to your plate, research them, and make your own conclusions. The same with fair trade coffee or buying fresh mangos in February. Many of the concerns that vegetarians have can be adequately addressed whilst still eating meat (quantity of red meat eaten at a time, organic meat, ethically slaughtered etc.) but arguments such as "meat tastes good" or "its difficult because everyone else eats meat" are weak arguments.Posted by Ringpeace on June 12, 2007 1:10 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. So what are we saying? Meat tastes nice. Badly cooked vegan food isn't nice. And this seems to be about the sum of it. Not born of a eureka moment then. As Dennis admits, becoming vegan meant little more than appearing 'radical'; we should not be surprised therefore that, faced with seafood, the ethics are straight out the window. Indeed if all our ethical stances were based on the contentless notion of simply wanting to be radical, rather then having arrived at a standpoint out of an ethical urge or consideration then of course we would abandon them when push came to shove. Or in Dennis' case, in front of the barbeque. There is an absolutely ethical relationship between humans and animals - we know that animals suffer because we suffer. Our moments of clarity should come when we stand face to face with a live animal, not when looking at 'beautiful

seafood'. This article is dishonest because it treats animals as food rather than as living beings and because it treats veganism as a fashion or fad rather than an ethical position. (And of course no discussion of vegetarianism would be complete without someone asking the absurd question 'what would we do with all the animals?' (thanks LizMacau), based on the problem of everyone becoming vegetarian simultaneously rather than gradually. Instead of asking such odd and crazy questions, we ought to be debating how it can ever be ethical to kill and eat a living being without absolute necessity.) Posted by weshouldtalk on June 12, 2007 1:41 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Well said Ringpeace.It's a peculiar thing how so many people's morals seem to decay as they age. Or perhaps it's simply that the relevance of one's morals seem to diminish in proportion to one's spending power. The author seems to be suggesting that vegetarianism is fine for poor students, but something that one moves "beyond" once one can afford to buy organic meat (which is at least as inefficient a means of producing food as "inorganic" meat). Presumably, by extension, it's also ok to contribute to the overfishing of marine species, to fly to barbados for one's annual holidays, oh and hang recycling and energy efficiency - after all the Chinese and Indians are going to overtake us in a few years...Posted by SeanD on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM.

Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. LizMacau - in response to your "what would we do with all the animals?"Duh - they're only bred for meat and dairy so most of 'em wouldn't exist in the first place. They certainly wouldn't be multiplying unhindered and rampaging across the country (as most of the non-veggies I had the misfortune to sit next to at dinner parties about 20 years ago used to love to claim). I really really fancy a Twix but can't have one til October or something in case it's the first step on a slippery slope to foie

gras.Posted by ohplease on June 12, 2007 1:58 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. ksquared: Eva Batt ... yes! I used to swear by Eva Batt. There was a lot of stuffing things like marrows, peppers etc with rice and grains, as I recall. I wasn't a vegan for 10 years in order to appear radical - I really believed in the rights of animals and agreed that humans shouldn't see them as food. I changed my mind - I do now see them as food. My morals haven't decayed with age, I just don't believe that

I'm making the world a better place by cooking like Eva Batt. There are a lot more important issues in the world than animal rights. ohplease - I can recommend foie gras, it's deliciousPosted by JonDennis on June 12, 2007 2:42 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. There are a lot of reasons why one shouldnt eat meat - not just the pain to animal thing, but also the numerous dubious production/manufacturing/employment conditions within the meat industry, contribution to pollution through chemical use and

subsequent road/air miles for transportation to a supermarket or ethical deli near you - apart from the first bit, sounds alot like what happens with most fruit and veg tho hey? Eating meat is something that most people could argue til the cows come home(to be slaughtered) most probably whilst sat at a dinner tabel having consumed a lovely omnivorian meal. Its all about eating ion moderation, sourcing as ethical as possible retailers and coming up with brilliant arguments(possibly based on your health) as to why you personally continue to eat meat. I eat meat because its nice and I like it and my hair falls out if I dont.Posted by crabbers on June 12, 2007 3:52 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. "There are a lot more important issues in the world than animals rights" -perhaps so, but there are also less important ones, and I'm not aware that taking a stance on animal rights at a dietary level prevents one from engaging with these other "more important" issues. In short, it's not an either/or situation. I respect a person's right to choose their own diet. I believe strongly that whether one is a vegan, vegetarian or omnivore, one should make every effort to buy ethically produced food. Mr Dennis appears to do this- good for him (not sure about the recommendation of foie gras though...) However, I think it's somewhat unfortunate that this article appears to be contrasting a meat-inclusive diet with bland, badly cooked vegan

fare. An omnivorous diet can also be sludgy and unimaginative. It all depends how you do it. As a vegetarian myself who gave up eating meat in spite of enjoying the taste, I have to agree that because something gives us pleasure is not in itself a good enough reason to indulge in it. We in the industrialised West don't need meat to survive or for optimum health; it therefore has to be regarded as not a necessity but as a habit, a luxury, on the same ethical level as sport hunting and non-medical testing on animals. It isn't a "them or us" situation, and I personally can't justify killing another living creature unless it's really a direct choice between my survival and theirs. Posted by Argenta on June 12, 2007 3:58 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Meat is murder! I know that yet i still eat it.conclusion- I don't care (enough)simple as that. There are enough things for me to fret about in my little life than worrying over every aspect of what i eat. I generally try to get good organic meat, that's enough for me. The health/nutrition point of view is more important to me than the 'ethics' of what i'm eating; having a varied diet, cooking from scratch etc. I tried being a vegetarian for a while in my uni days, but my health suffered (anaemia- I know you can get it from veggies but this kind of iron is much harder to absorb than the meat kind -'heme iron' and 'non heme')- i

concluded i just wasn't suited to a non meat diet. Vegetarians/vegans: PLEASE don't preach to meat eaters! I very much doubt you are perfect either. (eg: i know a vegan who smokes like a chimney!, and another who spits...)Posted by Asia1976 on June 12, 2007 4:01 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. @Sean D Morals don't decay with age; experience informs us that the world is not as black & white as we thought it was. Anyway, vegetarianism / veganism (or lack of) is

driven by personal beliefs, opinions, peccadilloes or dietary requirements, not morals in a universal sense.Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 4:05 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. hmm .. but I care more about my own nutrition and pleasure than I do about an animals life. There is no equivalence between an animal and a human. As you would eat blackberries from a hedge, I would eat rabbits from a field, just with a bit of cooking. In fact, if we were stuck up the Andes with nothing to eat, my fellow guardian

readers, you might start looking tastier than you really are. Misguided ethics are another false religion, as you grow out of loving baby Jesus, you will grow out of having this strange prejudice against eating animals. Its like praying 5 times a day, it doen't make you a better person, it just means you are doing something irrational to make yourself feel better.I too was a vegetarian once, but you grow out of these phases, thank DawkinsPosted by soldierpalmer on June 12, 2007 4:21 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate their boring jobs and they stop thinking about how they can give and instead think about what they can get. It's the same reason that people shift to the right of the political spectrum as they get older. They've had to slave through years of the boredom and unpleasantness that life presents them with and begin to demand their reward for it. Having lived in both India and China I know that animal free food can be absolutely delicious. In China you can eat Tofu that has the same texture as whichever meat the chef chooses to mimic (as opposed to that terrible gooey mess they call tofu in the UK). In the UK there simply isn't enough demand to create real innovation in the vegetarian food market, although I think this is slowly changing with more and more supermarket shelf space going to companies like

Cauldron. Meat eaters aren't morally bankrupt, they're simply as selfish as middle managers who complain that taxes are too high. An opinion I fully expect to hold in 10 years or so. And besides, the whole argument will be academic in 20 years time when it's economically viable to make meat in laboratories.Posted by TomSS on June 12, 2007 4:30 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. I was a veggie for about 8 years and a vegan for 4 of those. I became veggie for the same reasons most people do- the

ethical reason as well as the cruelty issue. I found that while I was a vegan I had loads of energy, but like someone else's post, I didn't really enjoy eating, and my favourite secret pleasures were almost always stuff I wasn't supposed to be eating- chips from a chipper with onion rings, or milk chocolate, and they were alsao really bad for me. I did (and do) love lentils though. I fell off the vegan wagon quite dramatically, and it was on the continent as well. My better half is Spanish, and the first time we went to visit her family they (didn't know/didn't want to know/tried to ignore the fact that..) I was vegan. Now, Im Irish, which means we always eat whats put in front of us, no matter how scary it might be.So I did, and that was it. I couldn't go back to veganism after four courses (and three hours!) of fish and meat, which, by the way, was absolutely yum. With reference to the other posts here, Guinness is the best way I found to avoid

anaemia, and vegetarianism is great, its the meat eaters who obsess about not eating meat, and then scoff all the salad at barbecues. But hey, eating meat ethically can be just as much fun and flavour as not eating it. I think some meat eaters should just give eating vegetables and pulses a try, ironically, like they do on the continent. (although none of the people who post here seem to be part of that meat and meat only brigade)I think that a balance in both portions and meat/veg is needed. oh, and I too know a vegan who spits, picks his nose, is thoroughly disgusting at dinner parties (talking about slaughtered flesh etc) and hates fair trade ("why should I pay more cos they're poor!"), so its not all black and white... And chorizo is lovely, by the way.Posted by keetredkid on June 12, 2007 5:02 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. @TomSS And, why oh why, is eating meat selfish?Posted by HughTower on June 12, 2007 5:46 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Too many "meat tastes nice, so I eat it" posts for comfort. I also fail to see how "organic" meat is slaughtered any more humanely than "inorganic". This is not a self-gratification issue, it is a straight forward ethical one. Choose to eat meat and you choose to support scenes such as the one in the photo - a pig hanging from chains. Go see a slaughter house, go watch geese being force fed corn, and then rave about the choice cuts and marvellous foie gras. I'm glad that some meat lovers feel so strongly about their own health that they have opted out of the normal production chain, but a little more thought about the live animal's health and welfare might be appropriate as well. "Organic" doesn't necessarily mean a cage-free or free roaming life style, nor does it mean humane slaughter necessarily (if such a thing exists). You can also argue that an animal's life is not as sacred as a humans, or that "dominion over" means you can do what you like with

an animal, but that still doesn't justify the abnormal life of caged chickens and veal calves, nor the inhumane aspects of the slaughterhouse.I know about killing animals. My wife and I run an equine rescue here in the States, and have had to experience the euthanizing of some of our rescues. Done humanely this is not a production line process, and there is a universal empathy across the other horses when it takes place, however much we hide what is going on. I do wish that you "I eat meat because it tastes good" people would find out a bit more about the chain of events that leads to that filet mignon on your plate; but maybe that would take away the pleasure and that is what self-gratification is all about isn't it!Oh, and by the way, I can make a vegitarian chilli con carne that can knock your socks off, and yes my mouth still waters at the thought of a real bacon butty, I just relish the thought instead of the act. Posted by

whitebird on June 12, 2007 5:48 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. "It's an unfortunate fact of life that people become more selfish as they get older. People start families, get mortgages, hate their boring jobs and..." These are signs of selflesness, silly-billy. Once you have kids you stop existing for yourself. Once you get a mortgage you're tied down. No drastic career changes or sudden whimsical trips possible. You get stuck in a boring job you hate because you have obligations to others and not only to yourself (although I

remember having far worse jobs when I was young). Anyway, meat is excellent, very tasty. In moral terms it's better too. At least all those dead animals are going to good use. Better than just killing off and leaving to rot all the herds of wild cows and sheep, chickens and rats that would otherwise invade out veggie-future grain fields. What a cruel waste that would be! Maybe we could just fence them out and not directly kill them though, eh? Starve them to death, deny them their birthright. Animal rights, don't deny our grainfields to our rat brothers and sisters.Posted by farofa on June 12, 2007 11:41 PM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. @Whitebird. 1. 'Ethical choice' - only within your own personal ethical framework, & not that of the society in which I live. Don't confuse universal ethics with personal beliefs - in my world it is considered unethical to mistreat animals, but ethical to kill them to eat (in general of course). 2. The pig's not alive when hanging from the chains. 3. I'm very glad that you're euthanising those horses humanely. Comparing that with killing for food production is hardly helpful however. Just don't preach to me from the pulpit of your own beliefs, & I won't trouble you with mine.Posted by HughTower on June 13, 2007 10:21 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. In the comments above, meat eating is compared unfavourably with driving an SUV, long haul flying & even snorting cocaine. And apparently, meat eaters care not a bit about energy efficiency or recycling. Yet one vegatarian bemoans the fact that meat eaters might avoid overtly vegetarian food "for fear of being brainwashed by a radical cult". I wonder why?Posted by Dan73 on June 13, 2007 11:56 AM. Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment. Peter H The all-new Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. When I see the price that you pay I don't wanna grow up I don't ever want to be that way I don't wanna grow up Seems that folks turn into things that they never want Peter H

 

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