Coffee, Sugar, Bananas?

July 17, 2005

Hi Peter,

Message received, zero distortion...

>this is a list for

> vegans to have discussions in an environment where we don't have to

put up

> with the usual day-to-day challenges to our choices from non-vegans.

I am

> pleased that you are trying to find answers, but please remember

that posts

> should be restricted to ones which aren't going to be anathema to

vegan

> views

I've honestly not meant to offend anyone - and I sincerely apologize

if I have. I thank you for the challenging discussion. I find that

these types of difficult dialogs really force me to examine my

beliefs, and in so doing I come to learn where my reasoning becomes

mere emotion or passive acceptance of the popular norm. It is in

passionate conversation with those of novel perspective where I've

experienced the greatest personal growth. However, in respect for

your feelings and in deference to your status as discussion moderator,

I promise to leave the topic alone. I still have many more questions

for you (and the group!) on this subject, and perhaps someday, maybe

once I've demonstrated my sincerity as a group member, we can pick

this subject back up? If not, then so be it...

Onto another hopefully less controversial topic.... During college,

I had the good fortune of having a fascinating professor for one of my

lower level biology courses. He integrated a world-perspective into

his curriculum that challenged my young viewpoint, and really made me

understand the complexity of the world economy and its impact on

environmental issues.

What I remember most was that he discussed the devastating loss of

rainforest consequent to Western demands for middle-grade beef,

coffee, bananas, and sugar. He demonstrated that the US market was

the ultimate destination for the bulk of these products. For the

South American countries producing these goods, prime agricultural

real estate, better used to grow sustenence crops for the citizens of

these countries, was instead used to produce " luxury crops " for export

to the US and other world powers. Sadly, rainforest acreage is being

claimed at an alarming rate to be utilized for domestic food

production in these economically struggling countries, despite its

inferior utility for crop production.

For me, this was brand new information. I had never before understood

my coffee, banana, or sugar consumption to be a driving force behind

the destruction of rainforest, serving as habitat for untold numbers

of irreplacable species of life.

Among my new-found vegetarian acquaintences, this doesn't seem to be

widely-known or well-understood information. It seems however, from

my to-date brief interactions, that vegans - or maybe it's just you

Peter ;o) - are a more globally and environmentally conscience group?

How does anyone feel about the implication of consumption of these

products, since they would seem to fall inside vegan guidelines? I've

never been a fan of bananas, so giving those up entirely was not

difficult. Coffee was harder - but I managed - and now I am a strict

herbal and green tea drinker (and have no idea how tea production

might be damaging the planet). Sugar continues to defy me... though

my consumption is limited nearly to that in ready-made products.

Does anyone have any thoughts or additional insights to add?

Still attempting to walk lightly on this earth,

Fairy Realm Girl

July 17, 2005

Hi Fairy Realm Girl

> I've honestly not meant to offend anyone - and I sincerely apologize

> if I have. I thank you for the challenging discussion. I find that

> these types of difficult dialogs really force me to examine my

> beliefs, and in so doing I come to learn where my reasoning becomes

> mere emotion or passive acceptance of the popular norm. It is in

> passionate conversation with those of novel perspective where I've

> experienced the greatest personal growth. However, in respect for

> your feelings and in deference to your status as discussion moderator,

> I promise to leave the topic alone.

Thanks - it's really just because most vegans have to put up with this sort

of conversation with everyone who finds out we are vegan, and wants to try

to " trip us up " ... after you've had that conversation 25 times, it gets a

bit laborious to go over it all again. Having said that, please do use the

resources on the net to find out more about the issues, and always question

the reason why those people have those views... many are related to money!

> For me, this was brand new information. I had never before understood

> my coffee, banana, or sugar consumption to be a driving force behind

> the destruction of rainforest, serving as habitat for untold numbers

> of irreplacable species of life.

Most people never do realise it (or at least choose to ignore it!)

> Among my new-found vegetarian acquaintences, this doesn't seem to be

> widely-known or well-understood information. It seems however, from

> my to-date brief interactions, that vegans - or maybe it's just you

> Peter ;o) - are a more globally and environmentally conscience group?

I'm always nervous of suggesting that vegans are any sort of cohesive group

with anything in common beyond diet! Although, in general, I have found

vegans to be much more politically aware than vegetarians and omnivores. I

find it interesting, for instance, that a large number of the local Dissent

group are vegan - many of them not for animal rights reasons at all, but

purely political.

> How does anyone feel about the implication of consumption of these

> products, since they would seem to fall inside vegan guidelines? I've

> never been a fan of bananas, so giving those up entirely was not

> difficult. Coffee was harder - but I managed - and now I am a strict

> herbal and green tea drinker (and have no idea how tea production

> might be damaging the planet). Sugar continues to defy me... though

> my consumption is limited nearly to that in ready-made products.

There are " fair trade " versions of most of these products - it's a matter of

taking some time to find out the details of the products you buy. I don't

drink coffee, so beyond mentioning " fair trade " , and recommending avoidance

of Nescafe, I can't say much else. (And to clarify, fair trade is usually

environmentally friendly as well, due to its nature). I refuse to give up

bananas, but do make sure I buy ones which have been produced to fair trade

ethics, thereby minimising the environmental and human / animal costs. I

don't have a particularly sweet tooth, so don't generally use sugar - but

when I do, I avoid Tate & Lyle for reasons which I can't remember now (I

think they may use some animal product in their whitening process).

In terms of food, there is also the big questions of organic, and locally

produced.... organically produced vegetables are less harmful to the

environment, and local produce doesn't have the environmental cost of

transportation, so all worth thinking about.

BB

Peter

July 17, 2005

There are places other than rainforests that produce bananas so it's best to

buy from there (can't think which places at present - probably somehwere

like Jamaica). I'm not sure if you can get them in the States though as you

have different trade rules to England. I hadn't realised about the coffee

production though. I buy fairtrade organic decaffeinated. The jar says it

is 100% Arabica beans - so does that mean it comes from an Arab land??? It

does say in the description that the way it is produced helps protect the

land, the people and the wildlife - so hopefully that is okay. The sugar we

use, from Tesco, is produced in Mauritius, so I think that is okay too.

Jo

> Hi Peter,

>

> Message received, zero distortion...

>

> >this is a list for

> > vegans to have discussions in an environment where we don't have to

> put up

> > with the usual day-to-day challenges to our choices from non-vegans.

> I am

> > pleased that you are trying to find answers, but please remember

> that posts

> > should be restricted to ones which aren't going to be anathema to

> vegan

> > views