Guest guest Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 Before I say this I want to make it known I am not advocating milk drinking. Okay... Advantages of cow milk products: - filling and satisfying -vitamin B12 - abundant protein - abundant calcium - satisfies longing for "creamy" foods Disadvantages - can cause mucus in some individuals (I never had this problem) - if not organic, is most probably filled with hormones and antibiotics - Can be too much protein for some people - Calcium benefit maybe offset by protein - Mostly taken from a nursing mother cow : ( (worst problem here IMO) - Milking cows treated very poorly without any care I know there are substitutes...but not exact substitutes. I am just saying lets not pretend there are no nutritional benefits to animal foods...or others will lose credibility in us for not admitting it. Kristina In a message dated 1/12/05 5:33:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, writes: Message: 19 Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:55:55 -0000 "heartwerk" <heartworkRe: Ghandi's vegetarianismKristinaOf course I have read (and own) some of 'their books' and meditate on a weekly basis with a Hare Krishna friend - so please do not preach to me. Just because I read something doesn't mean I believe it though. One doesn't need to believe any religious writing to know that stealing milk from a cow is wrong. Would you like to tell me which nutrient/s we need from milk that we cannot obtain in a more healthy form from a plant. Would you also please tell me the benefits of drinking milk rather than obstaining from it, and also the disadvantages to our bodies of drinking milk.Jo , lv2breathe@a... wrote:> > Jo> > Me thinks you are quick to condemn before investigation. > > Have you ever read any of their books? Do you have idea of what they are > saying? Before you do...it is wise to not assume it is false.> > There are many things in this universe we don't know about that we must stay > open to.> > I am sorry to say this...but so many vegans are so attached on vegan dogma > they can't bend. I don't think it's for us as individuals or a as movement to > be this way. We must not automatically condemn something we know nothing > about just because it does not fall in with our line of thinking. > > Or others just turn us off...for good reason.> > Kristina> > In a message dated 1/11/05 2:13:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > writes:> > Message: 20 > Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:25:47 -0000> "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...>> Re: Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism> > I really can't believe that would be the case - and we really don't need > milk past the breastfeeding stage. Cow's milk is totally wrong for us anyway.> > Jo> - > lv2breathe@a... > > Cc: Lv2breathe@a... > Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:17 PM> Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism> > > No, of course not. It is a sad sight to see us taking away the milk that > belongs to a calf.> > I don't have much personal experience from cows at all. The Hari Krishna's > do...and according to the book...the cows did not have to be impregnated to > give the milk because it was given with "love". The cow was treated kindly > and wanted to give.> > That is not to say when I go to a Hari Krishna restaurant I assume all the > dairy products are pure in this...I do not. I would not be surprised if the > cows that supplied it were not happy cows. I am just saying that there may > have been a time and place where this was true. It maybe very well true that a > cow will produce milk for us if treated kindly and with love. > > > Kristina> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2005 Report Share Posted January 12, 2005 , lv2breathe@a... wrote: > > I know there are substitutes...but not exact substitutes. I am just saying > lets not pretend there are no nutritional benefits to animal foods...or > others will lose credibility in us for not admitting it. > > Kristina > This is very true and agreed. All our opponents are waiting for us to make one mistake. Then they blow it up and question the credibility of everything else that we say. The meat industry does this indirectly thru the media as often as possible. Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 The balance of protein and calcium in milk is not correct for humans. Because of this calcium is actually leached from the bones. It is probably because of the increase in milk consumption over the last two (maybe three?) generations that there is now an 'epidemic' of osteoporosis in the western world. I don't think satisfying a longing can actually come into the nutritional benefits of a food. With regard to the mucus production - doctors now seem to think that it does affect everyone and recommend not consuming milk and milk products while suffering from a cold. Jo , lv2breathe@a... wrote: > > Before I say this I want to make it known I am not advocating milk drinking. > > Okay... > > Advantages of cow milk products: > > - filling and satisfying > -vitamin B12 > - abundant protein > - abundant calcium > - satisfies longing for " creamy " foods > > Disadvantages > > - can cause mucus in some individuals (I never had this problem) > - if not organic, is most probably filled with hormones and antibiotics > - Can be too much protein for some people > - Calcium benefit maybe offset by protein > - Mostly taken from a nursing mother cow : ( (worst problem here IMO) > - Milking cows treated very poorly without any care > > I know there are substitutes...but not exact substitutes. I am just saying > lets not pretend there are no nutritional benefits to animal foods...or > others will lose credibility in us for not admitting it. > > Kristina > > > In a message dated 1/12/05 5:33:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > writes: > > Message: 19 > Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:55:55 -0000 > " heartwerk " <heartwork@c...> > Re: Ghandi's vegetarianism > > > Kristina > > Of course I have read (and own) some of 'their books' and meditate on > a weekly basis with a Hare Krishna friend - so please do not preach > to me. Just because I read something doesn't mean I believe it > though. One doesn't need to believe any religious writing to know > that stealing milk from a cow is wrong. Would you like to tell me > which nutrient/s we need from milk that we cannot obtain in a more > healthy form from a plant. Would you also please tell me the > benefits of drinking milk rather than obstaining from it, and also > the disadvantages to our bodies of drinking milk. > > Jo > > , lv2breathe@a... wrote: > > > > Jo > > > > Me thinks you are quick to condemn before investigation. > > > > Have you ever read any of their books? Do you have idea of what > they are > > saying? Before you do...it is wise to not assume it is false. > > > > There are many things in this universe we don't know about that we > must stay > > open to. > > > > I am sorry to say this...but so many vegans are so attached on > vegan dogma > > they can't bend. I don't think it's for us as individuals or a as > movement to > > be this way. We must not automatically condemn something we know > nothing > > about just because it does not fall in with our line of thinking. > > > > Or others just turn us off...for good reason. > > > > Kristina > > > > In a message dated 1/11/05 2:13:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > writes: > > > > Message: 20 > > Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:25:47 -0000 > > " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> > > Re: Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism > > > > I really can't believe that would be the case - and we really > don't need > > milk past the breastfeeding stage. Cow's milk is totally wrong > for us anyway. > > > > Jo > > - > > lv2breathe@a... > > > > Cc: Lv2breathe@a... > > Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:17 PM > > Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism > > > > > > No, of course not. It is a sad sight to see us taking away the > milk that > > belongs to a calf. > > > > I don't have much personal experience from cows at all. The Hari > Krishna's > > do...and according to the book...the cows did not have to be > impregnated to > > give the milk because it was given with " love " . The cow was > treated kindly > > and wanted to give. > > > > That is not to say when I go to a Hari Krishna restaurant I assume > all the > > dairy products are pure in this...I do not. I would not be > surprised if the > > cows that supplied it were not happy cows. I am just saying that > there may > > have been a time and place where this was true. It maybe very > well true that a > > cow will produce milk for us if treated kindly and with love. > > > > > > Kristina > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 We are not talking to 'opponents' on this list - there are none here to hear our discussion, so let's not kid ~ourselves~ that milk is a good idea. Jo , rvijay07@m... wrote: > > , lv2breathe@a... wrote: > > > > I know there are substitutes...but not exact substitutes. I am just saying > > lets not pretend there are no nutritional benefits to animal foods...or > > others will lose credibility in us for not admitting it. > > > > Kristina > > > > This is very true and agreed. All our opponents are waiting for us to make one mistake. Then they blow it up and question the credibility of everything else that we say. The meat industry does this indirectly thru the media as often as possible. > > Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Milk isn't either a very good source of calcium as its low in magnesium and you need enough magnesium to absorb the calcuim so for people that drink "milk for the calcium" actually very little is absorbed, - everybody is being sold a big lie by the Dairy industry, Jo - heartwerk Thursday, January 13, 2005 7:43 AM Re:Advantages and disadvantages of cows milk The balance of protein and calcium in milk is not correct for humans. Because of this calcium is actually leached from the bones. It is probably because of the increase in milk consumption over the last two (maybe three?) generations that there is now an 'epidemic' of osteoporosis in the western world. I don't think satisfying a longing can actually come into the nutritional benefits of a food.With regard to the mucus production - doctors now seem to think that it does affect everyone and recommend not consuming milk and milk products while suffering from a cold.Jo , lv2breathe@a... wrote:> > Before I say this I want to make it known I am not advocating milk drinking.> > Okay...> > Advantages of cow milk products:> > - filling and satisfying> -vitamin B12> - abundant protein> - abundant calcium> - satisfies longing for "creamy" foods> > Disadvantages> > - can cause mucus in some individuals (I never had this problem)> - if not organic, is most probably filled with hormones and antibiotics> - Can be too much protein for some people> - Calcium benefit maybe offset by protein> - Mostly taken from a nursing mother cow : ( (worst problem here IMO)> - Milking cows treated very poorly without any care> > I know there are substitutes...but not exact substitutes. I am just saying > lets not pretend there are no nutritional benefits to animal foods...or > others will lose credibility in us for not admitting it.> > Kristina> > > In a message dated 1/12/05 5:33:22 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > writes:> > Message: 19 > Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:55:55 -0000> "heartwerk" <heartwork@c...>> Re: Ghandi's vegetarianism> > > Kristina> > Of course I have read (and own) some of 'their books' and meditate on > a weekly basis with a Hare Krishna friend - so please do not preach > to me. Just because I read something doesn't mean I believe it > though. One doesn't need to believe any religious writing to know > that stealing milk from a cow is wrong. Would you like to tell me > which nutrient/s we need from milk that we cannot obtain in a more > healthy form from a plant. Would you also please tell me the > benefits of drinking milk rather than obstaining from it, and also > the disadvantages to our bodies of drinking milk.> > Jo > > , lv2breathe@a... wrote:> > > > Jo> > > > Me thinks you are quick to condemn before investigation. > > > > Have you ever read any of their books? Do you have idea of what > they are > > saying? Before you do...it is wise to not assume it is false.> > > > There are many things in this universe we don't know about that we > must stay > > open to.> > > > I am sorry to say this...but so many vegans are so attached on > vegan dogma > > they can't bend. I don't think it's for us as individuals or a as > movement to > > be this way. We must not automatically condemn something we know > nothing > > about just because it does not fall in with our line of thinking. > > > > Or others just turn us off...for good reason.> > > > Kristina> > > > In a message dated 1/11/05 2:13:38 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > writes:> > > > Message: 20 > > Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:25:47 -0000> > "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...>> > Re: Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism> > > > I really can't believe that would be the case - and we really > don't need > > milk past the breastfeeding stage. Cow's milk is totally wrong > for us anyway.> > > > Jo> > - > > lv2breathe@a... > > > > Cc: Lv2breathe@a... > > Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:17 PM> > Re:Ghandi's vegetarianism> > > > > > No, of course not. It is a sad sight to see us taking away the > milk that > > belongs to a calf.> > > > I don't have much personal experience from cows at all. The Hari > Krishna's > > do...and according to the book...the cows did not have to be > impregnated to > > give the milk because it was given with "love". The cow was > treated kindly > > and wanted to give.> > > > That is not to say when I go to a Hari Krishna restaurant I assume > all the > > dairy products are pure in this...I do not. I would not be > surprised if the > > cows that supplied it were not happy cows. I am just saying that > there may > > have been a time and place where this was true. It maybe very > well true that a > > cow will produce milk for us if treated kindly and with love. > > > > > > Kristina> >To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Kristina wrote: > Advantages of cow milk products: > - filling and satisfying> -vitamin B12> - abundant protein> - abundant calcium> - satisfies longing for "creamy" foods Too much calcium can be bad. It could lead to calcification. Also, calcium is one the components that make up plaque (source: World book Encyclopedia). Plaque builds up in arteries and leads to heart disease. For me, I will get my calcium from food sources like cruciferous vegetables, beans, and nuts. They don't contain as much calcium as cow's milk. By the way, human milk contains less calcium than calcium rich vegetables. Human milk does not have as near as much calcium than cow's milk. Cow's milk is made for baby cows. Greg Meet the all-new My – Try it today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 , " heartwerk " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > We are not talking to 'opponents' on this list - there are none here > to hear our discussion, so let's not kid ~ourselves~ that milk is a > good idea. > > Jo Agreed there are no opponents here. Overall, most here know that milk is bad. For everything there are minor benefits, most of these are in the short term. So, if someone brings it up then we call all just take a look and discuss the related facts. That is all. In this regard, which of these two does this group think is worse ? If someone is poor and has no/very little food, drinking milk for the short term or starving ? There is not as much bad Karma associated with milk as with meat it appears to me. The answers may help to learn something helpful. Thanks in advance. Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Vijay I think that there are a very few places where people would have to have either milk or meat because there is not enough plant protein available to them. I think if the choices are drink milk/eat meat or die, then I would rather not die - but it would probably only be short-term. Of course, I once saw a film about a plane crash where the survivors eat the people who had died - possibly the best option they had. Jo - <rvijay07 Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:33 PM Re:Advantages and disadvantages of cows milk > > > , " heartwerk " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > > > We are not talking to 'opponents' on this list - there are none here > > to hear our discussion, so let's not kid ~ourselves~ that milk is a > > good idea. > > > > Jo > > > Agreed there are no opponents here. Overall, most here know that milk is bad. For everything there are minor benefits, most of these are in the short term. So, if someone brings it up then we call all just take a look and discuss the related facts. That is all. > > In this regard, which of these two does this group think is worse ? If someone is poor and has no/very little food, drinking milk for the short term or starving ? There is not as much bad Karma associated with milk as with meat it appears to me. The answers may help to learn something helpful. > > Thanks in advance. > > Vijay To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 either Survive er Alive(two different versions) about the 1972 crash of a south american rugby er soccer team into the Andes my dad took me to go see it at the drive in...sheesh..i was..wot..9? no wonder i turned out the way i did wahahah they also took me t o see the exorcist blackula and phantasm Jo Cwazy Jan 13, 2005 10:10 AM Re: Re:Advantages and disadvantages of cows milk VijayI think that there are a very few places where people would have to haveeither milk or meat because there is not enough plant protein available tothem. I think if the choices are drink milk/eat meat or die, then I wouldrather not die - but it would probably only be short-term. Of course, Ionce saw a film about a plane crash where the survivors eat the people whohad died - possibly the best option they had.Jo-<rvijay07Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:33 PM Re:Advantages and disadvantages of cows milk>>> , "heartwerk" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> >> > We are not talking to 'opponents' on this list - there are none here> > to hear our discussion, so let's not kid ~ourselves~ that milk is a> > good idea.> >> > Jo>>> Agreed there are no opponents here. Overall, most here know that milk isbad. For everything there are minor benefits, most of these are in the shortterm. So, if someone brings it up then we call all just take a look anddiscuss the related facts. That is all.>> In this regard, which of these two does this group think is worse ? Ifsomeone is poor and has no/very little food, drinking milk for the shortterm or starving ? There is not as much bad Karma associated with milk aswith meat it appears to me. The answers may help to learn something helpful.>> Thanks in advance.>> Vijay>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2005 Report Share Posted January 13, 2005 Even back in the day, my doctor told my mom not to feed me dairy to help with my asthma. I could really tell the difference, too. sara , " heartwerk " <heartwork@c...> wrote: > > The balance of protein and calcium in milk is not correct for > humans. Because of this calcium is actually leached from the bones. > It is probably because of the increase in milk consumption over the > last two (maybe three?) generations that there is now an 'epidemic' > of osteoporosis in the western world. > > I don't think satisfying a longing can actually come into the > nutritional benefits of a food. > > With regard to the mucus production - doctors now seem to think that > it does affect everyone and recommend not consuming milk and milk > products while suffering from a cold. > > Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Me too. Used to sit up many nights never sleeping, unable to breathe. Finally threw away my last inhaler after over 7 years of no attacks. I am so happy. sara , " Adam Vore " <FirmAbs6pk@s...> wrote: > me too... before I went vegan I had an asthma attack every week or so... REALLY BAD... after I went vegan I think I have had one asthma attack and it was because I got the flu. I actually dont even own an inhaler anymore because I've gotten so much better. > > ~Adam > - > > Even back in the day, my doctor told my mom not to feed me dairy to > help with my asthma. I could really tell the difference, too. > sara > > , " heartwerk " <heartwork@c...> > wrote: > > > > The balance of protein and calcium in milk is not correct for > > humans. Because of this calcium is actually leached from the > bones. > > It is probably because of the increase in milk consumption over > the > > last two (maybe three?) generations that there is now > an 'epidemic' > > of osteoporosis in the western world. > > > > I don't think satisfying a longing can actually come into the > > nutritional benefits of a food. > > > > With regard to the mucus production - doctors now seem to think > that > > it does affect everyone and recommend not consuming milk and milk > > products while suffering from a cold. > > > > Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote: >Of course, I once saw a film about a plane crash where the >survivors eat the people who had died - possibly the best option >they had. Was this the movie " Alive? " I read the book when I was a teenager and it haunted me. It's an amazing story and it's really impossible (for me) to say what one would do give those same circumstances. http://members.aol.com/porkinsr6/alive.html My daughter's friends often tease her and say something along the lines of " if you were stuck on an island with no food but there was a chicken would you eat it or not? " She always says " I'd eat whatever the chicken has been eating to stay alive " Of course in the case of this plane crash it was the frozen Andes mountains. nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2005 Report Share Posted January 15, 2005 I'm afraid I can't remember what it was called, or any details. It was on the telly several years ago. Jo > > Was this the movie " Alive? " I read the book when I was a teenager > and it haunted me. It's an amazing story and it's really impossible > (for me) to say what one would do give those same circumstances. > http://members.aol.com/porkinsr6/alive.html > > My daughter's friends often tease her and say something along the > lines of " if you were stuck on an island with no food but there was > a chicken would you eat it or not? " She always says " I'd eat > whatever the chicken has been eating to stay alive " Of course in > the case of this plane crash it was the frozen Andes mountains. > > nancy To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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