Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 >> ... I think that vegetarianism and veganism are equally noble choices, and are both really great for the world, animals and people. One is not better than the other, and giving that any credence is divisive within our own community. ------- While the good intentions of many vegetarians and vegans may be equally noble, the impact on the world, animals, and people is not. And it's not a difference of degree, it's a difference of kind. Pointing this out can be divisive, but glossing over it is naive or disingenuous. And it's a difference that matters. Vegetarians, like omnivores, choose to eat both plant and animal products. Vegans choose to eat plant products only. There's no great difference (for the world, animals, or people) between an omnivore that gets 50% (just an example) of their calories from meat, eggs, and dairy vs a vegetarian that gets 50% of their calories from eggs and dairy. Some find vegetarianism a helpful transitory stage between omnivore and vegan. Replacing meat with plants (perhaps lowering their consumption of animal products from 50% to 30%) would indeed be a positive step. Replacing meat with more eggs and dairy would not. Let's not pretend a goal of consuming animal products, whether meat, eggs, and/or dairy, is equivalent to a goal of consuming plant products. - Alan , " Lorraine " <ldemi wrote: > > Hi, > Well, I'd say don't beat yourself up about whatever decision you make > for your kids. It's your decision, based on your situation, and you and > your partner are the parents, not anyone else. :-) So, that said, I > think that vegetarianism and veganism are equally noble choices, and are > both really great for the world, animals and people. One is not better > than the other, and giving that any credence is divisive within our own > community - or within your own worrying process, in this case. :-) > heehee. We all make our own decisions, and each decision is the right > one for that person/family. You are teaching your kids great things by > deciding their diets to be vegetarian, and they will soon learn that all > people have slightly different diets (i.e., due to allergies, > preferences, lactose intolerance, gluten sensitivity, family decisions, > etc., etc.). They may choose veganism on their own, and at the very > least, I'm sure with both of their parents being veg*ns, they'll at > least feel very comfortable with vegetarianism. And I don't think you > should feel guilty about any diet choices you are making, and nothing > you've written is lame (as your message said) - anything you're choosing > is way better than the standard mainstream diet. I think you're doing a > stellar job! > > Happy birthday to your 1-year-old and have a wonderful pregnancy!!!! > Lorraine > > > On > Behalf Of wlwarren24 > Monday, December 14, 2009 9:46 PM > > 1 year old - vegan or lacto-ovo? > > > This is my first posting and I'm seeking counsel from those who have > been there before... I'm a 3 year vegan (20 years veggie) and DH is a > long-time veggie too. > > I was a happy, educated, confident pregnant vegan and for myself fully > committed for life. I am however torn about my son who turned 1 > yesterday. Originally I thought he would be raised vegan, but I've > recently felt uncomfortable with that decision and have pretty much > decided that he'll eat some eggs and dairy. At home probably not much. > > Ack. I'm not sure what I am looking for here -- I guess I am just > wondering if there are others out there who would be willing to share > their experiences, decisions made, regrets, concerns, challenges as they > made the determination of whether to raise thier kids lacto-ovo or > vegan. > > I think my discomfort is rooted in two things: > - feeling bad about making him be so " different " > - feeling concerned about nutrition (yes, yes I know it can be done well > and ultimately more nutritious, but I have not been making the > quinoa/kale smoothies that I thought I would - no time!) > > That seems so lame as I write it, but there it is. > > Thanks for any insight, thoughts, etc you have to offer. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I just wanted to thank everyone for sharing your stories. Although I did not post this question, I am so glad that it was posted! I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences elisa , leena <leena wrote: > > I was not planning on weighing in on this, since I have very limited > computer time, but perhaps my experience will be useful to you too. > Let me preface it by saying that how you choose to do this is a very > personal decision that has to work for your family. The challenges are > definitely different if both parents are not vegan. > > I have a very full plate. I have an 8 yr old, a 6 yr old, and a 4 yr > old. My 6 yr old son has cerebral palsy, and uses a wheelchair. > Because of his disability he is still in diapers. He cannot walk or > crawl, or sit up. His speech is labored. He has many doctor > appointments a month, and has many medical issues. The three of them > go to 3 different schools. But they have all been vegan from birth, > and we maintain a strictly vegan household. I could not have it any > other way, because not causing suffering is not a dietary choice in > our house (like, say, not eating tons of junk food) but instead it is > a family value, as meaningful as not being racist, or not being > violent to people. > > The suffering of dairy cows is arguably the worst suffering of any > food animal. I have friends who grew up on small dairy farms who went > vegan simply because the sound of the mothers on the day they took the > calves away was too much to bear. This does not even touch on the > factory farmed dairy cows. I will not go into this further since most > of us on this list are already familiar with the horrors of the dairy > industry. Is it easy to raise 3 kids vegan, especially with the > additional burden and limitations of my son's disability? No, it is > not. But I am not about to teach my kids that it is okay to > compromise non-violence to animals because it makes some extra work > for us. > > Yes, I have to plan ahead for food that will be served at social > functions. I produce yummy replacements for birthday parties, school > functions, church events. I volunteer to bring muffins for the whole > 3rd grade at the holiday party so that my daughter can partake. I have > to pack lunches every day. But I try to treat these all as outreach > opportunities. I have made cupcakes for the girl scout troop that > received " best cupcake ever " compliments from non-vegan kids. > > I am not a super mom. My house could be a lot cleaner and better > decorated. I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, and very little on > the computer. We have many rescued pets as well, which also take up a > lot of my time. But my kids have excellent diets, are used to eating > a variety of vegetables, grains, beans. My disabled son needs almost > double the calories as a typical kid his size because of the high > muscle tone of cerebral palsy, and so my husband and I work our > behinds off getting high calorie vegan foods into him every day. But > all 3 of my kids understand that we do not harm animals, we don't > force cows to give up their babies so that we can take their milk, we > don't spend one dollar of our money to pay someone else to torture a > sentient being for our palate. > > I will certainly let my kids choose to be not vegan once they are old > enough to have money in their pocket and be out with their friends > alone. I don't intend to " force " anything on them. But if you could > hear my 8 year old explain to a friend why she is vegan, you would not > wonder what choice she will make. I don't think there is anything > wrong with having a strong ethical value and sticking with it. I am > grateful to have a husband that shares my views and supports us in > this effort. We try to go to Farm Sanctuary yearly, and expose the > kids and ourselves to regular reminders as to why we have chosen a > path that is indeed sometimes not very convenient. But we make a lot > of choices as a family that are less than convenient, simply because > they are the right thing to do for our family, the planet, and those > we share it with. However, I have learned a lot of tricks and ideas > over the years to make it less inconvenient, and I am happy to share > those. > > That is just my 2 cents - hope it is helpful! > > Leena > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 My oldest child is in school and they have lots of unheathy treats. The PTO sells ice cream and other snacks during lunch , kids bring in cupcakes for birthdays, they sell cookies/candy at every minor holiday I could keep going but why....sigh. I do give the teacher a box of vegan candy as they give skittles as a treat in the classroom, I also give the teacher a box of vegan rice crispies for when others send in treats. I know my daughter does not always make healthy choices. She has a big sweet tooth and would never go without.  But I am trying to help her lean toward those vegan choices. She is still in elementary school though..  Laura Ballinger Morales ________________________________ Marla Rose <marla Sun, December 20, 2009 5:14:34 PM Re: Re: 1 year old - vegan or lacto-ovo?  My experience is that as the children age, it becomes a little more complicated as you have less control. At some point, unless you plan on keeping your child under close watch every moment, they are on their own. You have to have some degree of trust in your abilities to have modeled a great example and faith in your child to make the right decision. I think a lot of how easy or difficult it is has to do with how important it is to your child to fit in. My son, like Missie's, takes pride in being different and doesn't give a whit about have the exact same thing as the other kids. He's 7 1/2 now. What I do find is that he only is perturbed if other children get a treat and he doesn't, which is understandable. Thankfully, his school has a no-cupcake/birthday cake policy so that makes things much easier. I have told his teacher to let me know on the rare occasions when they get treats because it is very important for me that he is also able to enjoy and participate. It's important not only because it's fair to him, but we want to show everyone else that the vegan life is not one of deprivation. Marla > > I must say that I am finding it inspiring to hear the stories of people > who are doing veganism with their children (outside of the house as well > as in). It is encouraging to me! We have mostly heard from people young > children who have done this. Is there anyone on the list that has raised > their child vegan and is at high school age by now (or close to it)? > What has that journey been like? I know that when the kids are 4 or 5 or > even elementary school age it is easier to monitor and make > substitutions on what they are eating. But how is it by the time they > get to high school? Easier since they can make some of the choices and > substitutions themselves or harder? > > Thanks for sharing everyone, these are great conversations. While I had > already said that I do let my kids have the birthday cake to avoid > problems, I am also an ethical vegan, so it's not something that I am > ever comfortable with. It is nice to know that veganism is working out > well for others. It gives me hope! But I do think my daughter is leaning > toward veganism all on her own now, simply because of the things I > teacher on a regular basis and because she sees how and what I eat. > > JB > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg. org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg. org/family. This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Our son was allowed to make his own choices from the beginning of our transition to veganism. One year in elementary school I sent packaged vegan cookies in a tupperware type container to his teacher to keep on hand for when there were birthday treats. And I also told her he was free to choose if he wanted to have what the other children were having instead of what I had sent. Sometimes he did and sometimes not but the trend over time was to refrain from the non vegan food. We would have a conversation about it and the animals and how it was okay if he felt like being part of the crowd right at that moment, that it's not easy to be vegan in a non vegan world and that his Dad and I didn't have to make those choices when we were kids so we could teach each other how to figure out the best path to being a vegan kid. He also knew that if the class had a treat and nothing vegan for him was available we would go buy something special after school. And usually he chose inari sushi or something less decadent than cake or cookies. In 5th grade (different school) he had a rough patch with some mean boys teasing him at lunch, sticking BBQ meat in his water bottle straw etc. The teacher on lunch duty came down hard on them. He was bullied some that year and we wondered if being vegan was the seed that started it all- but it could have been over any different trait or fact of his life. But the school was very responsive once we saw more clearly that things had escalated beyond " normal " . I think his experience added to his compassion for others that might get ostracized from time to time. Now in 7th grade his social situation is much better. Occasionally someone will tell him he's going to get sick and die b/c he doesn't eat meat, but that's rare, most kids just accept his veganism as part of who he is. He goes to a creative arts school and when the High school kids help out with theater productions they all think he's really cool for being vegan. Any pain he experiences socially for being vegan still feels very familiar to me - even tho I wasn't a vegan kid. I remember being teased for having red hair, for having a weird name, not having the coolest clothes, on and on. We all have to walk the gauntlet and figure out the pros/cons of conforming and being true to who we are and who is REALLY a friend and who is not. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 >Let's not pretend a goal of consuming animal products, whether meat, eggs, and/or dairy, is equivalent to a goal of consuming plant products. > >- Alan Thanks for pointing this out as gently as possible. It was not easy to hear these types of comments when we were ovo/lacto and I'm sure it's not easy to read them on this list. One additional comment on the original circumstance - which was the possibility of one parent allowing the child to have some occasional cheese. It takes roughly 10 lbs of milk to make 1 lb of cheese. So the impact from cheese consumption is an order of magnitude higher than fluid milk and much higher than it may appear from looking at the meal or snack on your plate. If one were to allow the occasional non vegan birthday cupcake, the total amount of egg & milk (and therefore net " impact " ) in each one is fairly low, even though the cupcake looks huge to a small child. By comparison, choosing the 1 oz cube of cheddar cheese or 1 oz piece of string cheese from the party tray takes up a lot less space on the plate, is 100% animal derived and then concentrated, and so represents a much bigger " impact " . I would guess that the cupcake has a bigger emotional and social payoff for the child. Although there are those that propose that the casomorphins from the cheese and it's subsequent opioid effect may have a long term payoff for the cheese consumers. Others don't think there is enough in there to make cheese " addictive " to humans. Either way, I know it was A LOT harder for us to stop eating cheese than it was to stop eating meat and it sure felt like an addiction. Then once we were off of it, we had a very profound reaction to any accidental exposure to cheese. Our son was moderately lactose intolerant starting around age 3 and this was part of the reason we started exploring transitioning to vegan. Eating a bunch of cheese at a party or at preschool " spoke " to him via his stomach pretty dramatically afterward. So I was able to remind him that his tummy was complaining to his tongue that allowed the cheese to be in his belly to cause the distress. Also, if lactose intolerance is a factor now or becomes one as a child (or adult) ages, keep in mind that food manufacturers can label a cheese " lactose free " if it contains less than .5 grams of lactose per serving. Most cheese products probably comes right under the cutoff per serving. The serving size is usually 1 oz - which is roughly a 1 " x1 " x1 " cube. A handful of cubes could easily add up to several grams of lactose. Last I checked all Kraft block cheese is labeled " lactose free " but definitely contains lactose. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 Wow, now that's what I call thinking it through! Awhile back I posted a concept I made up called Plant Quotient (PQ) that aims at the same sort of thing that I think you are talking about (with you going a step further in tracing back the processing and concentration of animal products), trying to be mindful about how our food choices relate to our goals for ethical behavior. In case you weren't on the group at that time, I have reposted it below. -------- What's your PQ? That's " Plant Quotient " . PQ = Calories Consumed from Plants / Total Calories Consumed For those of us who are ethical vegetarians and vegans, calculating our PQ may be a useful self-assessment tool to see where we are, to see how far we've come, and to see how far we have to go to meet our goal. We could even plot changes over a period of time to see if we are trending up or down, or perhaps we have " plateaued " . A score of zero would suggest somebody eats no plants. On the other end of the specturm, the score of one (or 100%) would suggest somebody eats an entirely plant-based diet. Although the PQ, as I formulated it above, is concerned only with what we eat, I think it provides a meaningful way of assessing our progress toward the goal of causing the least harm possible to animals as we nourish our bodies. In contrast, labeling ourselves as carnivores, omnnivores, vegetarians, and vegans seems to lead to unproductive bickering over the definition of these terms. And these labels are not necessarily indicative of progress in our journey, as you can see from the example, below. Charting my own journey might have looked something like this: 1) I started out with a PQ of around 33% (this is when people called me an omnivore). I was getting about a third of my calories from plants, and the rest from animal sources. 2) Then (while still being called an omnivore) I started subsituting plants for animals in my diet, and my PQ increased steadily over several years to around 70%. 3) For a few years I plateaued at 70% simply because I lacked the incentive to put a little extra effort into investigating new food options, and to plan ahead for the inconvenience of eating out at the home of friends/family or in restaurants.. 4) Then I got the push I needed when my first daughter was born and I didn't want her to eat meat on account of me feeding it to her, and I didn't want to be a hyprocrite. I stopped eating meat (people called me a vegetarian), but I replaced it with extra dairy and eggs. In fact, I'd say I even replaced some of the plant sources of food I had previously eaten with more dairy and eggs. At that point, although I went from being called an omnivore to being called a vegetarian, my PQ actually dropped to around 60%. 5) Then I realized (as I was loading up on dairy) that I'm actually partially lactose intolerant, so I cut out dairy (but not eggs). I replaced milk, yogurt, and cheese with soy alternatives, and my PQ jumped up to 90%. 6) Finally, I replaced eggs with tofu scramble, egg replacers, etc. I also replaced honey with rice syrup and agave nectar, and started buying unrefined sugar. My PQ moved up to somewhere around 99%, and people began calling me vegan. 7) Since then, I have started reading product labels more carefully to avoid animal products lurking where I hadn't expected to find them ... and my PQ is inching up toward my goal of 100%. So, that's been my journey. Not that I expect this to catch on (I'll be happily surprised if it does!), but in theory at least, I believe measuring and discussing our PQs would help us understand our own and each other's individual journeys better, and that could enable us to better help the animals by helping ourselves and each other. - Alan , Danita <danitamark wrote: > > >Let's not pretend a goal of consuming animal products, whether meat, eggs, and/or dairy, is equivalent to a goal of consuming plant products. > > > >- Alan > > Thanks for pointing this out as gently as possible. It was not easy to hear these types of comments when we were ovo/lacto and I'm sure it's not easy to read them on this list. > > One additional comment on the original circumstance - which was the possibility of one parent allowing the child to have some occasional cheese. > > It takes roughly 10 lbs of milk to make 1 lb of cheese. So the impact from cheese consumption is an order of magnitude higher than fluid milk and much higher than it may appear from looking at the meal or snack on your plate. > > If one were to allow the occasional non vegan birthday cupcake, the total amount of egg & milk (and therefore net " impact " ) in each one is fairly low, even though the cupcake looks huge to a small child. > > By comparison, choosing the 1 oz cube of cheddar cheese or 1 oz piece of string cheese from the party tray takes up a lot less space on the plate, is 100% animal derived and then concentrated, and so represents a much bigger " impact " . > > I would guess that the cupcake has a bigger emotional and social payoff for the child. Although there are those that propose that the casomorphins from the cheese and it's subsequent opioid effect may have a long term payoff for the cheese consumers. Others don't think there is enough in there to make cheese " addictive " to humans. > > Either way, I know it was A LOT harder for us to stop eating cheese than it was to stop eating meat and it sure felt like an addiction. Then once we were off of it, we had a very profound reaction to any accidental exposure to cheese. > > Our son was moderately lactose intolerant starting around age 3 and this was part of the reason we started exploring transitioning to vegan. Eating a bunch of cheese at a party or at preschool " spoke " to him via his stomach pretty dramatically afterward. So I was able to remind him that his tummy was complaining to his tongue that allowed the cheese to be in his belly to cause the distress. > > Also, if lactose intolerance is a factor now or becomes one as a child (or adult) ages, keep in mind that food manufacturers can label a cheese " lactose free " if it contains less than .5 grams of lactose per serving. Most cheese products probably comes right under the cutoff per serving. The serving size is usually 1 oz - which is roughly a 1 " x1 " x1 " cube. A handful of cubes could easily add up to several grams of lactose. Last I checked all Kraft block cheese is labeled " lactose free " but definitely contains lactose. > > D > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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