Guest guest Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 OK, excuse my ignorance here, but aren't octaves EIGHT notes? " Oct " is an abbreviated prefix for eight, isn't it? Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " John Davis " <mcxg46 Re: Peter, the moderator Tue, 20 May 2003 13:30:12 +0100 Hi Peter, I seem to have four emails on the same subject to reply to, so I hope you'll forgive me if I indulge in a little snipping, and put those from you together... > With only 13 distinct notes in an octave (i.e. 13 different notes which can > be played at once), and generally only 6 or 7 maximum different notes played > together sounding anything other than horrific Perhaps I wasn't clear, in which case apologies. I was not talking about so many different and separate melodies, but rather distinct lines (melodic, harmonic, rhythmic). I've gone into detail about this in a reply to Jo's email, so rather than repeat myself, can you take a look at that? >.... why do you feel there is > an advantage of having 15 distinct lines over 10? Advantage? None at all. I don't think it is in some way better to have more lines, or more complexity of form. It is just something a piece can have, or not have. Ironically, I've spent many hours in the past arguing against complexity of form, claiming that this detracts from the melodic aspects of a work. I love folk (and country) precisely for its lack of complexity of form, which allows the melody to take centre stage. I don't think complexity of form is good in and of itself, and I don't even think it good from a subjective viewpoint. But I do think classical music is possessed of more complexity of form than any other western genre. > By the way, something which I think would help us all understand where you > are coming from - which progressive metal groups are you referring to? Flower Kings, Dream Theater, Yes, LTE, that kind of thing. Not my favourite rock groups (Led Zeppelin, Queen, and - yes I'll admit it - Meat Loaf), but those I thought were considered the more musically complex. > Incidentally, could you explain what you mean by " form " - this seems to be > some sort of term that you've started using a lot because you've hooked onto > the fact that I don't know what it means. From the way you've used it so > far, my current guess is that it is a term used by those who know a lot > about music theory to baffle us mere mortals. Sorry, it wasn't meant to confuse. I was using it to try and distinguish it from other aspects such as virtuosity of line, melodic content, etc. And also to try and get away from any kind of qualititive implication - a piece isn't good or bad, better or worse, because of complexity of form. And if you work as an arranger, I'm sure you know as much or more about this as me anyway. But to clarify... By form I meant the harmonic and temporal structure of a work. So a simple form might be a verse/chorus or ABA structure with a single melodic theme, using the most basic of chords, say, first, fourth, fifth, and remaining in a single key. Most folk and pop music falls happily into these simple forms with very little varation, and, in my opinion, anything more often detracts from the melodic content anyway. But by way of contrast, a classical work will pass through many different keys, making use of scores of different forms, and many musical themes, which are not only used but also developed. And more than that, often not merely use these techniques but play with them, confounding your expectations, breaking rules they have established, drawing themes out from earlier themes. > > I have heard, and enjoy, a lot of prog rock. I'm sitting next to a CD rack > > containing about a dozen Yes albums, four or five Dream Theatre > > albums... > > Shame you couldn't copy their name correctly off one of the CDs then :-) Yea, well, if they'd have spelt it right in the first place...! > Perhaps a practical perspective would be more helpful. One of my " hobbies " > is arranging and performing music in styles other than that in which it was > written - as such, I have arranged numerous classical pieces for performance > in a heavy rock style, and numerous progressive metal songs (and other > metal, but that's a different kettle of fish) for performance by orchestra > and choir. I can tell you, classical into rock is a piece of cake - prog > metal to classical is far harder to catch all the underlying subtlety of the > piece. This is something I have no experience of, so cannot really comment. But that said (says he, about to comment), I do know that the complexity of form doesn't really have much to do with how easy it is to transpose into a different arrangement. The genius is in the creation of the form in the first place. I can study Bach, and I can even follow some of his strands of thought. But not in a thousand years could I ever come up with music even remotely as complex. In the same way, I can take a great folk melody and then add a harmonic structure, counter-melody, etc. But I couldn't have written the melody in the first place. John - " Peter " <Snowbow Monday, May 19, 2003 6:17 PM Re: Peter, the moderator > Hi John > > > Rather than number of instruments, you could try considering the number of > > distinct lines playing at once. An average prog track may have up to ten > or > > so, though usually no more than five or six. An average symphony will > > probably have at least fifteen or twenty. Now this is not 'proof' of > > complexity on its own, but is certainly one factor. > > With only 13 distinct notes in an octave (i.e. 13 different notes which can > be played at once), and generally only 6 or 7 maximum different notes played > together sounding anything other than horrific.... why do you feel there is > an advantage of having 15 distinct lines over 10? > > By the way, something which I think would help us all understand where you > are coming from - which progressive metal groups are you referring to? > > BB > Peter > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 Hi Danielle, Eight tones (or seven, if you don't count the eighth which is the same as the first but up an octave). But there are semi-tones between most of these tones, which bring the count to 12 (or13 if you count the octave note). Or, if you want to include quarter tones as in Chinese Opera, there are about 26... John - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:48 AM Re: octaves > > OK, excuse my ignorance here, but aren't octaves EIGHT notes? " Oct " is an > abbreviated prefix for eight, isn't it? > > Danielle > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " John Davis " <mcxg46 > > > Re: Peter, the moderator > Tue, 20 May 2003 13:30:12 +0100 > > Hi Peter, > > I seem to have four emails on the same subject to reply to, so I hope you'll > forgive me if I indulge in a little snipping, and put those from you > together... > > > With only 13 distinct notes in an octave (i.e. 13 different notes which > can > > be played at once), and generally only 6 or 7 maximum different notes > played > > together sounding anything other than horrific > > Perhaps I wasn't clear, in which case apologies. I was not talking about so > many different and separate melodies, but rather distinct lines (melodic, > harmonic, rhythmic). I've gone into detail about this in a reply to Jo's > email, so rather than repeat myself, can you take a look at that? > > >.... why do you feel there is > > an advantage of having 15 distinct lines over 10? > > Advantage? None at all. I don't think it is in some way better to have more > lines, or more complexity of form. It is just something a piece can have, or > not have. Ironically, I've spent many hours in the past arguing against > complexity of form, claiming that this detracts from the melodic aspects of > a work. I love folk (and country) precisely for its lack of complexity of > form, which allows the melody to take centre stage. I don't think complexity > of form is good in and of itself, and I don't even think it good from a > subjective viewpoint. But I do think classical music is possessed of more > complexity of form than any other western genre. > > > By the way, something which I think would help us all understand where > you > > are coming from - which progressive metal groups are you referring to? > > Flower Kings, Dream Theater, Yes, LTE, that kind of thing. Not my favourite > rock groups (Led Zeppelin, Queen, and - yes I'll admit it - Meat Loaf), but > those I thought were considered the more musically complex. > > > Incidentally, could you explain what you mean by " form " - this seems to > be > > some sort of term that you've started using a lot because you've hooked > onto > > the fact that I don't know what it means. From the way you've used it so > > far, my current guess is that it is a term used by those who know a lot > > about music theory to baffle us mere mortals. > > Sorry, it wasn't meant to confuse. I was using it to try and distinguish it > from other aspects such as virtuosity of line, melodic content, etc. And > also to try and get away from any kind of qualititive implication - a piece > isn't good or bad, better or worse, because of complexity of form. And if > you work as an arranger, I'm sure you know as much or more about this as me > anyway. But to clarify... > > By form I meant the harmonic and temporal structure of a work. So a simple > form might be a verse/chorus or ABA structure with a single melodic theme, > using the most basic of chords, say, first, fourth, fifth, and remaining in > a single key. Most folk and pop music falls happily into these simple forms > with very little varation, and, in my opinion, anything more often detracts > from the melodic content anyway. But by way of contrast, a classical work > will pass through many different keys, making use of scores of different > forms, and many musical themes, which are not only used but also developed. > And more than that, often not merely use these techniques but play with > them, confounding your expectations, breaking rules they have established, > drawing themes out from earlier themes. > > > > I have heard, and enjoy, a lot of prog rock. I'm sitting next to a CD > rack > > > containing about a dozen Yes albums, four or five Dream Theatre > > > albums... > > > > Shame you couldn't copy their name correctly off one of the CDs then :-) > > Yea, well, if they'd have spelt it right in the first place...! > > > Perhaps a practical perspective would be more helpful. One of my > " hobbies " > > is arranging and performing music in styles other than that in which it > was > > written - as such, I have arranged numerous classical pieces for > performance > > in a heavy rock style, and numerous progressive metal songs (and other > > metal, but that's a different kettle of fish) for performance by > orchestra > > and choir. I can tell you, classical into rock is a piece of cake - prog > > metal to classical is far harder to catch all the underlying subtlety of > the > > piece. > > This is something I have no experience of, so cannot really comment. But > that said (says he, about to comment), I do know that the complexity of form > doesn't really have much to do with how easy it is to transpose into a > different arrangement. The genius is in the creation of the form in the > first place. I can study Bach, and I can even follow some of his strands of > thought. But not in a thousand years could I ever come up with music even > remotely as complex. In the same way, I can take a great folk melody and > then add a harmonic structure, counter-melody, etc. But I couldn't have > written the melody in the first place. > > John > > - > " Peter " <Snowbow > > Monday, May 19, 2003 6:17 PM > Re: Peter, the moderator > > > > Hi John > > > > > Rather than number of instruments, you could try considering the number > of > > > distinct lines playing at once. An average prog track may have up to > ten > > or > > > so, though usually no more than five or six. An average symphony will > > > probably have at least fifteen or twenty. Now this is not 'proof' of > > > complexity on its own, but is certainly one factor. > > > > With only 13 distinct notes in an octave (i.e. 13 different notes which > can > > be played at once), and generally only 6 or 7 maximum different notes > played > > together sounding anything other than horrific.... why do you feel there > is > > an advantage of having 15 distinct lines over 10? > > > > By the way, something which I think would help us all understand where > you > > are coming from - which progressive metal groups are you referring to? > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 Hi Danielle > OK, excuse my ignorance here, but aren't octaves EIGHT notes? " Oct " is an > abbreviated prefix for eight, isn't it? There's eight whole tones (basically, think of doh-re-me, etc.) - but there are also five sharps / flats (think black keys on a piano) :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release 19/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2003 Report Share Posted May 22, 2003 Got it. Eight notes, and five half-tones, if you will... " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Peter " <Snowbow Re: octaves Wed, 21 May 2003 16:14:21 +0100 Hi Danielle > OK, excuse my ignorance here, but aren't octaves EIGHT notes? " Oct " is an > abbreviated prefix for eight, isn't it? There's eight whole tones (basically, think of doh-re-me, etc.) - but there are also five sharps / flats (think black keys on a piano) :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release 19/05/03 _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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