Paradigm shift; Tender Greens; Satiation (WAS: Waste as byproduct; Metabolic recapture and recycling; Leaching of alkaline-forming minerals (WAS: Use urine??? (WAS: A painful lesson))

June 15, 2007

Caron,

That you are having this conversation at all suggests, at least to me, that

you are light years ahead of most parents and most people. You are correct,

I had disconnected one part of your writing from another. Sometimes I see an

opportunity to share an idea or a perception, and I take that opportunity.

People who believe you are being too hard on them are misguided, though

perhaps well intended. (And perhaps not; they may be trying to make

themselves feel good.) I meant no criticism of you personally.

I am, however, suggesting a significant paradigm shift, away from treating

anything, and toward something else. I won't elaborate again here. And I am

suggesting that you stop seeking out the opinions of so many people.

Everyone has an absolute right to hold any opinion he/she chooses. At the

same time, the opinions of 10,000 uninformed people are of no constructive

use.

Regarding food choices, I suggest to you that you read Doug Graham's book,

The 80/10/10 Diet, as that is what your son . and you . and all of us .

should be eating. By this, I mean that our design processes fruits and

tender greens best, and all other things a distant second-best (or worse).

Oh, that reminds me, someone asked what I mean by " tender greens " . I mean

greens with soft leaves that do not taste particularly bitter. Common

examples include lettuces, many wild greens, and to an extent. young, tender

green sprouts.

Regarding sprouts, though, try this experiment. Go out and buy a big bag of

sunflower sprouts. Get up one morning and make those sprouts your first meal

of the day. Eat them alone (or with water, or water beforehand is okay). Pay

attention to what you experience in your mouth. Notice how your satiation

mechanism actually works.

You can repeat this experiment with many foods. I usually suggest beginning

with sunflower sprouts, because the perceived changes in the mouth are quite

dramatic for most people.

Best,

Elchanan

_____

rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

Caron

Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:13 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] Waste as byproduct; Metabolic recapture and

recycling; Leaching of alkaline-forming minerals (WAS: Use urine??? (WAS: A

painful lesson)

Hi Elchanan,

Thanks for the explanation re the ammonia and urine. Very informative.

As for my wagging my son's tail, the actual point of my original post was,

" I know this is bad for him, so don't let him eat it, he ate it anyway, and

now HE knows it's bad, because of this rash which is a direct, and very

visible (and painful) result of what he ate. " I had read and listened to

your information about symptoms, and from my own experiences, knowledge and

imagination, came to the conclusion that it is true. My son unknowingly

proved it in real time. THAT was my only intention of posting what I did, to

share an anecdote. A few quotes from the story I told:

" Unfortunately, the lesson was my son's, but I hope he learned it well. " and

" I feel soooo sorry for it [should have read " him " ], because it looks so

painful, specially around his mouth. I really hope he learned from this

(I've been reinforcing that it's because he ate the chips), and never

touches the junk again. " I didn't ask how to treat it, or suggest that it

was too much for him to bear, just that it was a hard lesson for a little

guy.

In response, I had a couple of people say I was too hard on him in my

response, a couple of people say I reacted appropriately, and a few others

suggest ways of alleviating his discomfort. I wasn't looking for parenting

tips - I know I'm not perfect, which is why I'm learning, both from his

responses (good or bad), from the results I get (good or bad), and from

other people's experiences and results, and allowing my parenting style to

evolve, which still keeping consistancy, or explaining any changes to avoid

confusion and thus rebelion, but that wasn't my purpose in posting. I wasn't

looking for remedies, though I did appreciate those who posted, taking the

time to do so, as I have my own remedies, and I usually let symptoms run

their course - not out of cruelty, or wanting him to learn his own hard

lesson (though in this case it was a benefit), but because I know that

interference often makes the situation worse, or directly intervenes with

what the body is trying to do. I've copped a lot of flack from people for

allowing a fever to run its course, while continuing to breastfeed him, and

monitoring his reactions, because without the fever, the body cannot fight

whatever infection is present - as soon as they start to bring the fever

down, they have to prescribe antibiotics, to get rid of the infection. I

know the dangers that can result from a high fever, which is why I watch

closely for any adverse effects, but the dangers from antibiotics just as

real, and I'd rather avoid them all. He's also allergic to paracetamol (the

active ingredient in tylenol), which is invariably the drug of choice for

reducing fevers.

I AM still concerned about his other symptoms, and HAVE figured out that the

cause of them is what we're eating, which is why I've been trying to find

out WHAT exactly we should be eating. I know what I need to learn, but

trying to find the answers is difficult at best. Which is why I'm still

asking. " tender greens " and " sweet fruits " means very little to me, as I've

never heard them refered to by these terms. It's like explaining that a ball

is a ball - no doubt, but it doesn't tell me what it is, or what to do with

it, or how. I know everyone here is as busy as I am, if not more so, we all

have lives. I also know that all this is second nature to most of you, you

know what you're talking about. But I don't. As far as I've learned, veges

are potatoes and pumpkin, salad is a side, and all fruits are sweet, in that

they have sugar; I've also learned that we need milk for strong bones and

teeth, meat is the main part of the meal, and essential for getting protein.

I -know- my perceptions are incorrect, and I -know- what I don't know.

Reinforcing that is fine, but at the same time, I'd appreciate being

informed of what IS correct, or at least being told where I can find the

information for myself, without having to spend hours wading through

erronous information put out by people who just want to sell the product

they have (which is also valid, but I'm looking for health, not gadgets).

I do appreciate the time you've all taken to answer me.

Caron

-

Elchanan

rawfood@ <rawfood%40> .com

Friday, June 15, 2007 12:54 AM

[Raw Food] Waste as byproduct; Metabolic recapture and recycling;

Leaching of alkaline-forming minerals (WAS: Use urine??? (WAS: A painful

lesson)

Hi Caron,

All living organisms are designed to recapture and recycle as much material

as they can reuse. So whatever is eliminated is either

(a) unusable material, which is typically acidic, or

(b) alkaline-forming material added by the body to reduce the acidity of the

unusable material.

The amount of alkaline-forming material added is in direct proportion to the

amount of damage the acid waste would do if it were not (relatively)

neutralized. In other words, the stronger, the more toxic, the waste

byproduct, the greater the quantity of alkaline material added.

When we eat and live very healthfully, the waste byproduct is typically mild

.... you can tell this because urination always feels comfortable. When we

eat and live unhealthfully, the waste byproducts is typically more strongly

acidic ... you can tell this because urination may burn a bit, or feel

somewhat irritating.

In the former case (predominantly healthful diet and lifestyle), the body

need not add much alkaline-forming material to the urine. This is a " good

thing " , as that material is part of the body ... it comes primarily from our

bones, as well as from other structures.

In the latter case (predominantly less healthful diet and lifestyle), the

body commits alkaline-forming material almost continually, in order to

protect its own tissues from acid burns prior to and during elimination.

Over time, this leaching process depletes the body, in response to which all

the treatment-oriented types recommend different ways to infuse minerals

back into the body. But if one simply adopts a healthful diet and lifestyle,

the body replenishes itself ... and none of the other " treatments " works

particularly well. How can you know this? Just go and find someone who

actually claims that his/her treatment reinfuses minerals into the bone

structures of your system.

I imagine that the reason Neal's comment about byproducts seemed confusing

to you is that ALL " waste " products are byproducts of something. For

example, when humans drink a case of soda or beer, part of the " waste "

product consists of empty bottles and/or cans, cardboard packaging, and the

like. In a metabolic context, many byproducts can be reused; these are

typically recaptured and recycled by the organism (whether human or

otherwise). And those byproducts that cannot be reused by THAT organism are

released back into Nature (eliminated), where they become food and raw

material for other, smaller organisms (typically bacteria, molds, fungi, and

the like).

Ammonia is a rather strong alkaline-forming material manufactured by the

body primarily in the presence of acid overload. For more information about

ammonia in the body, please see posts # 16196 and 29499.

I'll discuss skin some other time.

And as I wrote in some post yesterday, as I recall, your child has many

symptoms ... why this focus on a little rash or skin irritation? Seems to me

a bit like the tail wagging the dog, so to speak.

Best,

Elchanan

_____

rawfood@ <rawfood%40> .com

[rawfood@ <rawfood%40> .com] On

Behalf Of

Caron

Wednesday, June 13, 2007 11:15 PM

rawfood@ <rawfood%40> .com

Re: [Raw Food] Use urine??? (WAS: A painful lesson)

- Elchanan

2. Urine is predominantly acidic ... of course it would burn the skin, and

particularly the very thin and delicate skin of someone quite young.

Compare the texture of a sunflower sprout with that of a full-grown

sunflower green. Get the picture?

This is what I've seen in my boy, and why I was very hesitant to use it. I

have zero knowledge or experience with using urine to heal or clean, but tea

tree oil is known for its anti-something properties (some say anti fungal,

some say anti bacterial, I can never remember which, but it does work), and

zinc is known for healing, but both give my boy 3rd degree burns, which is

far worse than any rash he's had, or even any wound he's had, so there's

obviously no way I'd use them again. It's like using a medication with a

list of side effects longer than my arm - why use a " cure " that's worse than

the original illness??

Anyway, I've been thinking about skin, and how different his is to mine (eg,

my face is sensitive, but my arms are less so, and my feet the complete

opposite, whereas when he was born, the skin on his feet was the same as

anywhere else on his body, and even now, the only difference is a slight

dryness compared to the rest, and staining from walking on dirt barefoot.

And I wondered, are we humans more like marsuipials (kangaroos, koalas, etc)

just missing our pouches? One of those weird, random thoughts I have at odd

moments...

3. Urine contains the collected aggregate of all that the body finds of no

use whatsoever -- the sum total of our metabolic waste + nonmetabolic

foreign matter the body is able to release now -- along with some alkalizing

components to prevent acid burns on the way out. Why anyone would

administer urine to the body is beyond me. Also, the alkalizing components

are only noticeable in quantity when the urine is highly acidic.

I haven't investigated the chemical composition of urine, though my studies

and my medical history have told me that extras like protein, sugar, and so

on, are not good to have. However, my thinking was similar to yours, which

is why Neal's statement that it's not a waste product but a byproduct threw

me for a loop. I know the kidneys filter the blood, and just assumed that

the stuff that was filtered out was sent out with the urine, but then

started wondering if maybe it goes out into the bowel. I have no idea, but

it's now on my list of things to study. I feel a need to retake my anatomy

and physiology, and biochemistry classes, from the point of view of raw food

being ideal. I have a feeling I'd understand things much better.

4. The presence of ammonia, a strong alkaline substance, directly indicates

that the underlying waste product is HIGHLY acidic. The body makes ammonia

in noticeable quantities only when this is so.

Can you please expand on this? This is something I've been trying to get my

head around since he started getting those burns, and there's quite a few

other mums in the nappy group who have had similar problems with their

babies. The common assumptions include: food allergies, bacteria in the

nappies, dehydration, and age of infant (it usually occurs shortly before

the child is out of night nappies, but this happens at different ages, so my

guess is that the correlation is between the burns and tt'ing, not age and

burns). I'm sure there's more to it though, and would love to understand it

better.

Thanks Elchanan,

Caron

June 15, 2007

Hi Elchanan,

I do understand what you're saying, no worries there, and I'm not taking offense

at what you say. I think we're pretty much on the same track with the concepts

of symptoms and health - I know I have plenty of one and little of the other -

as well as treatments, though at this point, I'm seeing a proper diet as the

ultimate treatment, so that's what I'm trying to get to. I appreciate you

sharing your perceptions, as they've given me a lot to think about over the past

few weeks, and helped me redefine my thinking on a few things, or at least

understand it better.

I will look for the book, do you know offhand if it's available in Australia? I

did a quick search of online stores of major bookshops here, and found only

" Postharvest: an Introduction to the Physiology and Handling of Fruit,

Vegetables and Ornamentals by RON WILLS; BARRY MCGLASSON; DOUG GRAHAM & OTHERS " ,

which I believe is a university textbook. I'll have another look in the morning,

it's way past my bedtime. Does the 80-10-10 book have more information as to

what foods to eat? I'm looking for a nice, dumbed down list, that I can tick off

with my fruit'n'vege order each week.

Re satiation, I did try this last week sometime, got a bowlful of a particular

food, and ate it piece by piece, and when I had a few pieces left, I got this

sudden, horrid taste in my mouth, dry and sharp at the back of my tongue. It

wasn't that I'd gotten a bad piece, as the next piece tasted the same, after

rinsing my mouth with water. I've never noticed it before, it was great. I enjoy

" proving " things like that for myself, so thanks. Now to prove to myself that I

can eat a raw diet, and completely eliminate all my health problems ;o)

Thanks again. I'm off to bed, it's 2am.

Caron

-

Elchanan

rawfood

Saturday, June 16, 2007 12:45 AM

[Raw Food] Paradigm shift; Tender Greens; Satiation (WAS: Waste as

byproduct; Metabolic recapture and recycling; Leaching of alkaline-forming

minerals (WAS: Use urine??? (WAS: A painful lesson))