Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 By the way, I was simply answering questions posed by Jayelle about our evolution process and not on a campaign, but you have made some leaps of assumptions that I have only swallowed a bunch of crap put out by someone else. So to that I respond: I did not stereotype dairy " farmers " , as a matter of fact I did not even mention dairy " farmers " whatsoever. Nearly all of the dairy and egg products that are in your market, and I mean the vast majority, come from factory farms. Owned and managed by large corporations even if they appear to be run by small farmers. Take a look at the numbers in each of those places, thousands and thousands, and it is clear that they are not " farmers. " I stereotyped " farm factories, " and I have been there and seen for myself. I was married to two dairy farmers, with small herds and my father in law was also a dairy farmer and the dairy cows were treated as animals, and they called it animal husbandry and dictated how the animals were to be treated. Now the term used is " animal science " and the animals are simply commodities with no regard for their natural needs or well being. Factory farms are where the dairy herds are now being raised and on the factory farms where layer hens are being raised and tortured. I stand by my statement. The horrible abuse and brutality that goes on in these places is well documented and I have seen it first hand as it is an area I work in. Those diary farmers that you know, 2 here and 1 in Canada do not supply even the a tiny fraction of the milk and eggs sold here or in Canada. The small farmer trying to scratch out a living are a treasure, but they make little impact on the brutality that is occurring on the farm factories. (Only we can do that by refusing to buy from the markets and only frequenting the small farmer such as you mention). There are very, very few family owned farms such as you mention though. Farm factories certainly don't use bulls, but use artificial insemination. Bulls are too slow. Dairy cows are kept perpetually pregnant, their babies are taken from them right after birth or maybe a couple of days later. Dairy cows from farm factories have a high rate of mastitis. Their udders often so over grown from the forced milk production, both in terms of genetic modification or hormones, that the udders drag on the ground. Although we see " happy cow " commercials on TV it is far from the truth. They live unnatural lives. The average dairy cow lives for about 3-5 years until their milk production declines and then they are slaughtered and their bodies turned into hamburger. That is where most of your hamburger comes from. Now they are moving to keeping them in stalls all day long to decrease their feed needs such as they do pigs. The hope is that they will give even more milk at lower costs. The normal everyday dairy cow will live for 20-25 years. Last summer I traveled I-5 from Oregon down to the southern tip of CA and all along the freeway were these " happy " cows. They weren't in those grassy meadows that they show us on TV, but in lots with mounds such as you see in the feed lots, and they were attempting to stay out of the sun under small scruffy trees and out of the foul manure mud by getting up on the little hills provided. The stench was overwhelming. As one approaches the Grape Vine further south the factory farms make the air so disgusting that breathing is difficult from the ammonia put out by these overcrowded and under cared for factory farms. Workers in these places suffer high rates of respiratory ailments. The male baby chicks cannot lay eggs nor are they used for breeding and it is not economically feasible to raise them as they have no use to the system. Only the females are kept. Layer hens are not bred there, but they are purchased from businesses that specialize in providing laying hens to the factories. The males are killed as they cannot be raised for eating chickens. They are rarely killed humanely since it cost more in time and resources despite any laws that are in place. (What the law does essentially is to say if whatever is occurring is accepted practice then it is legal). Layer hens are bred, (genetically manipulated), to lay more eggs and eating chickens are bred to grow faster and larger so the two are not interchangeable. Since males from layer hens haven't been developed to be the larger chickens they have no value in a system whose main goal is to make money. Many stores, under pressure, are providing " free range " eggs for their customers who are refusing to buy eggs from chickens held in battery cages. However, there are no regulations that define " free range " and it is a useless term. You have thousands and thousands of chickens in barns, crowded, and their access to the outdoors is limited since the openings are tiny little openings and only opened for a certain number of hours a day. If the poor chicken can find the opening amidst all of the other chickens they are lucky. Even this avenue to the sun is being curtailed now out of fear of the spread of avian flu. You can't get into this places anymore for the most part since they do not want the public to know what conditions the animals are living in. Now they are using the excuse that people will bring in diseases to the chickens. The ban was occurring long before the avian flu threat. Disease can spread in those places due to the overcrowded conditions. There are laws in most places now protecting the factories from the press under penalties of law. You think all of those films that you speak of are computer generated and just made up? Shock value? They should shock you! I would encourage you to do your own research, there are plenty of resources on the net. There is plenty of factual proof and pictures to back those facts up. And if you are so inclined I will see that you get a personal eye view of these farm factories where the vast majority of your milk and eggs come from. linda " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it. " Mohandas Gandhi linda's albums: womyn47 - " AJ " <coolcook > Sorry but I have to say something here. you might not like that vegetarians > are sterotyped.. thats fine but u just stereotyped all dairy farmers in the > same breath. > > Unless you have seen it for yourself, stood right there and watched, not > those shock value documentaries. > I know 2 dairy farmers in canada and 1 in the states who use their cows for > milk only the calfs are not sent for veal, they still feed from the > mother.Until it is weaned. Then their children take over and raise it until > its old enough to breed which is done naturally as well. Then it is passed > from farm to farm breeding at will. The bull is happy and so are the cows. > All 3 farms none of these 3 dairy farms mistreat their animals in anyway. > Their barns are so clean u could eat off the floors (not that I would want > to). My kids and I love to go there. > You are talking mass producing dairy farms, not everyday dairy farms. > > As far as baby chickens of layer hens being grinded up..then explain to me > where the next generation of layer hens come from? If it was true there > would be none left.Not all chicken farms do that either. > thats my 2 cents. > > AJ > Don't just read about it ......experience it. > > > > > - > " linda " <lindai81 > > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:46 AM > OT: Fat vegetarians, becoming veggier, " tastes > like chicken " > > > > Would you like to define " fat? " Or thin for that matter? Chubby? Define. > It > > is ludicrous that anyone would comment on the stereotype of all > vegetarians > > and vegans being thin. And you don't talk about how long you have been > > chubby? Nor do you say how old you are? Are there any health issues? Is > your > > family " chubby. " Those all impact the size we are regardless of being > > vegetarian or vegan for that matter. Reread the statistics...it just says > > that overweight issues plague veggies less often...doesn't say that all > > veggies are thin. Same goes for a lot of other things....guess what? There > > are vegetarians and vegans that are diabetic too, get cancer, have > strokes, > > have heart attacks. Being vegetarian/vegan is no guarantee of long and > > healthy life, but it is a life that doesn't add to the misery of other > > sentient beings and it does mean that we are probably healthier over all > of > > those that eat meat. I am a vegan, and before that I was a vegetarian for > > many years. As I got older I gained weight nevertheless. Now I suppose > maybe > > the outside world would say I am chubby. But that is the outside world. I > am > > older, I have a metabolic disturbance (lol). I don't eat junk food, I get > > heavy duty daily exercise, but that is a natural one, not the gym. Chalk > up > > the jerks that ridicule you about being heavier than they think > appropriate > > and a vegetarian and tell them to screw off. Honest to goddess, some > people > > have got the common sense of wall board. I do know what you are talking > > about though, so sometimes I will say " I'm the only fat vegan you will > ever > > meet. " Stops them in their tracks. (I am given to hyperbole) Relax, accept > > yourself, do what you can and enjoy and leave the jerks to jerkdom. Pisses > > me off when people treat others like that. > > > > That being said I have known a lot of vegetarians that are so skitterish > > about not getting enough protein in their diets that they put cheese or > eggs > > or milk or cream into nearly everything they eat. Those are very high > > calorie and absolutely are really not needed. You get all you need in the > > nutritional area without those things. > > > > I am a vegan for the moral and ethical issues that I see so I don't use > > anything made from animals or animal by-products. I know that I can't > avoid > > everything since even glue that is found in everything and furniture > > processes will use animal by-products but I have found replacements for > > anything that I need and if I can't I do without. I also won't use > anything > > that was tested on animals and that gets a bit tricky. But it wasn't a > slow > > conversion...it just smacked me in the face one day and from that moment > on > > I was sickened with what I knew I had been doing all of my life. Dairy > > products and eggs were once a part of my nutrition, until I saw and > learned > > about the terrible abuses that dairy cows and chickens go through, and > about > > the fact that the male calf of the dairy cow goes to become veal and all > of > > the baby chickens of layer hens are immediately killed sometimes by > sending > > them through a grinder alive. So, my becoming more aware of the costs in > > terms of humaneness I couldn't keep on...so that was my evolution. > > > > As for attempting to mimic foods that I once enjoyed I don't. I just try > > anything new and accept or reject it on whether or not my tongue likes it. > I > > enjoyed meat until I understood that meat is not meat...it is another > living > > being that loves breathing, the sun, being with their kind and just enjoys > > being alive. If I won't eat you why would I eat a another being? I think > > that for some giving up cheese, if they go vegan, is the hardest thing for > > them to do. > > linda > > > > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you > do > > it. " > > Mohandas Gandhi > > > > linda's albums: womyn47 > > > > - > > " Jayelle " <jayelle3 > > > > > > > > I have three topics on my mind that relate to vegetarianism, so I'm > > > sharing them all. > > > > > > 1. Is anyone else here a fat vegetarian? I'm losing weight, but that's > > > because I'm moving more and not eating as much junk as I have in the > > > past. And then people get surprised that I'm vegetarian because I'm > > > chubby. It's actually one of the reasons I don't talk about it much, > > > because I don't want to be ridiculed. > > > > > > A few days ago, my mom reminded me that the pandas I love are chubby > > > vegetarians (wish I could be as cute and confident as Mei Xiang, the > > > National Zoo's mama panda!), and so was the Buddha. Meanwhile, my > > > omnivore wife's weight hovers around 95 pounds! > > > > > > 2. I've been getting slowly more interested in whole foods and how my > > > food is made, and less interested in animal products of any kind. I eat > > > vegetarian for health reasons, but lately, I've felt a bit grossed out > > > at the idea of putting leather on my feet. I'm also looking out for > > > cheese that says " microbial rennet " or " no animal rennet " or " suitable > > > for vegetarians " --I used to not really care about how the cheese was > > > made. How have others' tastes and views on these matters evolved? > > > > > > 3. Let's say there's a carnivorous thing you've never liked, such as, > > > in my case, chicken of any kind, scrambled eggs, and tuna salad. Would > > > you try a veggie version of these things, if it purported to have a > > > similar taste and texture? I've given Quorn a chance and liked it > > > okay--it also makes my beloved happy--but the idea of scrambled tofu or > > > vegetarian tuna salad makes me literally queasy. > > > > > > There's gotta be some discussion here! > > > > > > Blessed be, > > > > > > Jayelle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 You didn't answer her questions u attacked her questions like u were gnawing on a bone. Well excuse the hell out of me I consider dairy produces, dairy farmers ....you didn't once mention farm factories or maybe im wrong or maybe you are...I grew up on a farm and I think I know more about it then you do. I slaughtered the animals for food and sold them. I shoveled the crap and didn't just didn't write about it. If you were married to a dairy farmers you also profitted buy it, all farms can be cruel in some way or the other. I also worked a maple lodge farms " chickens " and saw them caged and slaughted on the spot. I know how it all works. So I don't need any help seeing it I lived it. I don't agree on all that goes on with animal rights but i also I don't need a speech on what happens and how it happens your not the only one informed on the subject. If you don't like what i said, I really don't care, You rambled on about things we already know and are dealing with in our own way. It was your way of attacking someone who asked 3 simple questions. end of story, end of subject for me. - " linda " <lindai81 Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:01 PM Dairy, egg/ assumptions > By the way, I was simply answering questions posed by Jayelle about our > evolution process and not on a campaign, but you have made some leaps of > assumptions that I have only swallowed a bunch of crap put out by someone > else. So to that I respond: > > I did not stereotype dairy " farmers " , as a matter of fact I did not even > mention dairy " farmers " whatsoever. Nearly all of the dairy and egg products > that are in your market, and I mean the vast majority, come from factory > farms. Owned and managed by large corporations even if they appear to be run > by small farmers. Take a look at the numbers in each of those places, > thousands and thousands, and it is clear that they are not " farmers. " I > stereotyped " , " and I have been there and seen for myself. I > was married to two dairy farmers, with small herds and my father in law was > also a dairy farmer and the dairy cows were treated as animals, and they > called it animal husbandry and dictated how the animals were to be treated. > Now the term used is " animal science " and the animals are simply commodities > with no regard for their natural needs or well being. Factory farms are > where the dairy herds are now being raised and on the factory farms where > layer hens are being raised and tortured. I stand by my statement. The > horrible abuse and brutality that goes on in these places is well documented > and I have seen it first hand as it is an area I work in. Those diary > farmers that you know, 2 here and 1 in Canada do not supply even the a tiny > fraction of the milk and eggs sold here or in Canada. The small farmer > trying to scratch out a living are a treasure, but they make little impact > on the brutality that is occurring on the farm factories. (Only we can do > that by refusing to buy from the markets and only frequenting the small > farmer such as you mention). There are very, very few family owned farms > such as you mention though. Farm factories certainly don't use bulls, but > use artificial insemination. Bulls are too slow. Dairy cows are kept > perpetually pregnant, their babies are taken from them right after birth or > maybe a couple of days later. Dairy cows from farm factories have a high > rate of mastitis. Their udders often so over grown from the forced milk > production, both in terms of genetic modification or hormones, that the > udders drag on the ground. Although we see " happy cow " commercials on TV it > is far from the truth. They live unnatural lives. The average dairy cow > lives for about 3-5 years until their milk production declines and then they > are slaughtered and their bodies turned into hamburger. That is where most > of your hamburger comes from. Now they are moving to keeping them in stalls > all day long to decrease their feed needs such as they do pigs. The hope is > that they will give even more milk at lower costs. The normal everyday > dairy cow will live for 20-25 years. Last summer I traveled I-5 from Oregon > down to the southern tip of CA and all along the freeway were these " happy " > cows. They weren't in those grassy meadows that they show us on TV, but in > lots with mounds such as you see in the feed lots, and they were attempting > to stay out of the sun under small scruffy trees and out of the foul manure > mud by getting up on the little hills provided. The stench was overwhelming. > As one approaches the Grape Vine further south the factory farms make the > air so disgusting that breathing is difficult from the ammonia put out by > these overcrowded and under cared for factory farms. Workers in these places > suffer high rates of respiratory ailments. > > The male baby chicks cannot lay eggs nor are they used for breeding and it > is not economically feasible to raise them as they have no use to the > system. Only the females are kept. Layer hens are not bred there, but they > are purchased from businesses that specialize in providing laying hens to > the factories. The males are killed as they cannot be raised for eating > chickens. They are rarely killed humanely since it cost more in time and > resources despite any laws that are in place. (What the law does essentially > is to say if whatever is occurring is accepted practice then it is legal). > Layer hens are bred, (genetically manipulated), to lay more eggs and eating > chickens are bred to grow faster and larger so the two are not > interchangeable. Since males from layer hens haven't been developed to be > the larger chickens they have no value in a system whose main goal is to > make money. Many stores, under pressure, are providing " free range " eggs for > their customers who are refusing to buy eggs from chickens held in battery > cages. However, there are no regulations that define " free range " and it is > a useless term. You have thousands and thousands of chickens in barns, > crowded, and their access to the outdoors is limited since the openings are > tiny little openings and only opened for a certain number of hours a day. If > the poor chicken can find the opening amidst all of the other chickens they > are lucky. Even this avenue to the sun is being curtailed now out of fear of > the spread of avian flu. You can't get into this places anymore for the most > part since they do not want the public to know what conditions the animals > are living in. Now they are using the excuse that people will bring in > diseases to the chickens. The ban was occurring long before the avian flu > threat. Disease can spread in those places due to the overcrowded > conditions. There are laws in most places now protecting the factories from > the press under penalties of law. You think all of those films that you > speak of are computer generated and just made up? Shock value? They should > shock you! I would encourage you to do your own research, there are plenty > of resources on the net. There is plenty of factual proof and pictures to > back those facts up. And if you are so inclined I will see that you get a > personal eye view of these farm factories where the vast majority of your > milk and eggs come from. > linda > > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do > it. " > Mohandas Gandhi > > linda's albums: womyn47 > > - > " AJ " <coolcook > > > Sorry but I have to say something here. you might not like that > vegetarians > > are sterotyped.. thats fine but u just stereotyped all dairy farmers in > the > > same breath. > > > > Unless you have seen it for yourself, stood right there and watched, not > > those shock value documentaries. > > I know 2 dairy farmers in canada and 1 in the states who use their cows > for > > milk only the calfs are not sent for veal, they still feed from the > > mother.Until it is weaned. Then their children take over and raise it > until > > its old enough to breed which is done naturally as well. Then it is passed > > from farm to farm breeding at will. The bull is happy and so are the cows. > > All 3 farms none of these 3 dairy farms mistreat their animals in anyway. > > Their barns are so clean u could eat off the floors (not that I would want > > to). My kids and I love to go there. > > You are talking mass producing dairy farms, not everyday dairy farms. > > > > As far as baby chickens of layer hens being grinded up..then explain to me > > where the next generation of layer hens come from? If it was true there > > would be none left.Not all chicken farms do that either. > > thats my 2 cents. > > > > AJ > > Don't just read about it ......experience it. > > > > > > > > > > - > > " linda " <lindai81 > > > > Wednesday, May 17, 2006 11:46 AM > > OT: Fat vegetarians, becoming veggier, > " tastes > > like chicken " > > > > > > > Would you like to define " fat? " Or thin for that matter? Chubby? Define. > > It > > > is ludicrous that anyone would comment on the stereotype of all > > vegetarians > > > and vegans being thin. And you don't talk about how long you have been > > > chubby? Nor do you say how old you are? Are there any health issues? Is > > your > > > family " chubby. " Those all impact the size we are regardless of being > > > vegetarian or vegan for that matter. Reread the statistics...it just > says > > > that overweight issues plague veggies less often...doesn't say that all > > > veggies are thin. Same goes for a lot of other things....guess what? > There > > > are vegetarians and vegans that are diabetic too, get cancer, have > > strokes, > > > have heart attacks. Being vegetarian/vegan is no guarantee of long and > > > healthy life, but it is a life that doesn't add to the misery of other > > > sentient beings and it does mean that we are probably healthier over all > > of > > > those that eat meat. I am a vegan, and before that I was a vegetarian > for > > > many years. As I got older I gained weight nevertheless. Now I suppose > > maybe > > > the outside world would say I am chubby. But that is the outside world. > I > > am > > > older, I have a metabolic disturbance (lol). I don't eat junk food, I > get > > > heavy duty daily exercise, but that is a natural one, not the gym. Chalk > > up > > > the jerks that ridicule you about being heavier than they think > > appropriate > > > and a vegetarian and tell them to screw off. Honest to goddess, some > > people > > > have got the common sense of wall board. I do know what you are talking > > > about though, so sometimes I will say " I'm the only fat vegan you will > > ever > > > meet. " Stops them in their tracks. (I am given to hyperbole) Relax, > accept > > > yourself, do what you can and enjoy and leave the jerks to jerkdom. > Pisses > > > me off when people treat others like that. > > > > > > That being said I have known a lot of vegetarians that are so skitterish > > > about not getting enough protein in their diets that they put cheese or > > eggs > > > or milk or cream into nearly everything they eat. Those are very high > > > calorie and absolutely are really not needed. You get all you need in > the > > > nutritional area without those things. > > > > > > I am a vegan for the moral and ethical issues that I see so I don't use > > > anything made from animals or animal by-products. I know that I can't > > avoid > > > everything since even glue that is found in everything and furniture > > > processes will use animal by-products but I have found replacements for > > > anything that I need and if I can't I do without. I also won't use > > anything > > > that was tested on animals and that gets a bit tricky. But it wasn't a > > slow > > > conversion...it just smacked me in the face one day and from that > moment > > on > > > I was sickened with what I knew I had been doing all of my life. Dairy > > > products and eggs were once a part of my nutrition, until I saw and > > learned > > > about the terrible abuses that dairy cows and chickens go through, and > > about > > > the fact that the male calf of the dairy cow goes to become veal and all > > of > > > the baby chickens of layer hens are immediately killed sometimes by > > sending > > > them through a grinder alive. So, my becoming more aware of the costs in > > > terms of humaneness I couldn't keep on...so that was my evolution. > > > > > > As for attempting to mimic foods that I once enjoyed I don't. I just try > > > anything new and accept or reject it on whether or not my tongue likes > it. > > I > > > enjoyed meat until I understood that meat is not meat...it is another > > living > > > being that loves breathing, the sun, being with their kind and just > enjoys > > > being alive. If I won't eat you why would I eat a another being? I > think > > > that for some giving up cheese, if they go vegan, is the hardest thing > for > > > them to do. > > > linda > > > > > > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you > > do > > > it. " > > > Mohandas Gandhi > > > > > > linda's albums: womyn47 > > > > > > - > > > " Jayelle " <jayelle3 > > > > > > > > > > > I have three topics on my mind that relate to vegetarianism, so I'm > > > > sharing them all. > > > > > > > > 1. Is anyone else here a fat vegetarian? I'm losing weight, but > that's > > > > because I'm moving more and not eating as much junk as I have in the > > > > past. And then people get surprised that I'm vegetarian because I'm > > > > chubby. It's actually one of the reasons I don't talk about it much, > > > > because I don't want to be ridiculed. > > > > > > > > A few days ago, my mom reminded me that the pandas I love are chubby > > > > vegetarians (wish I could be as cute and confident as Mei Xiang, the > > > > National Zoo's mama panda!), and so was the Buddha. Meanwhile, my > > > > omnivore wife's weight hovers around 95 pounds! > > > > > > > > 2. I've been getting slowly more interested in whole foods and how my > > > > food is made, and less interested in animal products of any kind. I > eat > > > > vegetarian for health reasons, but lately, I've felt a bit grossed out > > > > at the idea of putting leather on my feet. I'm also looking out for > > > > cheese that says " microbial rennet " or " no animal rennet " or " suitable > > > > for vegetarians " --I used to not really care about how the cheese was > > > > made. How have others' tastes and views on these matters evolved? > > > > > > > > 3. Let's say there's a carnivorous thing you've never liked, such as, > > > > in my case, chicken of any kind, scrambled eggs, and tuna salad. > Would > > > > you try a veggie version of these things, if it purported to have a > > > > similar taste and texture? I've given Quorn a chance and liked it > > > > okay--it also makes my beloved happy--but the idea of scrambled tofu > or > > > > vegetarian tuna salad makes me literally queasy. > > > > > > > > There's gotta be some discussion here! > > > > > > > > Blessed be, > > > > > > > > Jayelle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.