re: Lyman, taste for fat

[Guest guest]

I've known Howard for years (being his webmaster, editor, and special projects

dude). Over the past few years he's totally adopted a " no-added fat " vegan

diet, with minimal sodium and sugar. Howard's a self-proclaimed " hard core "

animal rights vegan.

 

I believe Dr. Campbell follows the same type of diet (I've quoted him from an

interview on my blog). I didn't read the final " China Study " but did

read/comment on a near-final draft. My biggest take away from the book, is that

animal protein facilitates (enables) cancers. Granted the research was done

with mice, it seems solid when coupled with the sociological dietary studies he

did.

 

As to the craving for fat, Dr. Esselstyn was correct (at least in my case) that

you lose that taste/craving for fat after around 14 weeks or so (person

dependent). I was skeptical, but it actually happened.

 

I would suggest caution on avocados, though. Avocados have around 20 grams of

fat each. As such, that posted salad dressing recipe probably had between 30

and 40 grams of fat.

 

Since Ornish, Esselstyn, Campbell, et. al., recommend 14 to 20 grams of fat per

day....

 

In general, Essy recommends minimizing tofu, avocados, and nuts. If you've

heart disease, he's definitely against nuts and avocados. In his book, tofu is

used primarily for occasional desserts, with a greater focus on beans.

 

FYI, Mark

http://www.soulveggie.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

 

>I would suggest caution on avocados, though. Avocados have around

>20 grams of fat each. As such, that posted salad dressing recipe

>probably had between 30 and 40 grams of fat.

 

Maybe not. At least when I made it, I used (and said I used) about 2

very small avocados. I buy them at a produce

store that has really fabulous prices, in general. They charge for

baby avocados by the pound and they

end up being MUCH cheaper than big avocados would be for the same

amount of edible part.

So, I probly used the equivalent of 1 avocado.

However, someone following the recipe might use 2 medium or large

avocados, OR they might use

1 large avocado (to compensate for not have 2 small ones). How much

avocado to use is really up to the

person making it though -- so someone could use a lot more or a lot less.

 

The salad dressing recipe was very clearly noted as " includes

avocados " . It is in the SUBJECT LINE.

Personally, I think that is plenty prominent to make that information.

But perhaps you can suggest some improvement on that?

 

Certainly caution is okay -- but this is already a FAT FREE VEGAN list, so

people here are clearly selecting to hear about FF VEGAN food.

I guess you can post warnings about each recipe that includes

avocados or nuts etc.

But perhaps there is some more general " fix " to this so that you

don't need to post a caution on each

individual recipes.

What would you like to see in the recipe besides " includes avocado " ?

 

 

>Since Ornish, Esselstyn, Campbell, et. al., recommend 14 to 20 grams

>of fat per day....

 

You're right, of course, that all these folks recommend limited

amounts --- AND Furhman certainly also

recommends EATING some high-fat food (e.g. nuts, flaxseed). (I expect

the others do too..... I know they

ALLOW some, but am not recalling if they recommend it vs. just allow.)

Even Furhman's " most restricted " plan allows for 2 oz a day of

avocado, and I think it is 1 oz a day of nuts.

 

I think the dressing I posted actually falls within this (most

restrictive Furhman) guideline.... (the quantity

I made lasted for about 4 or 5 salads). I just made a new batch

last night and used up maybe 1/8 of it

on today's salad.)

 

If one is being really purist, I guess I could " improve " the recipe

by stating the exact quantities

of ingredients (but I don't actually cook that way). I DO expect

that anyone who is trying to

ELIMINATE avocados or trying to be exacting about how much will do

that -- by not making it,

or by measuring exactly how much they are using and eating.

 

If I were being purist, I could also look up the Ornish and McDougall

guidelines -- I know they

differ as to who allows a few olives vs. some nuts, etc. I haven't

tried to follow any of these diets

" purely " for many years, and have the general ideas down pat (for

decades now), so I have simply

forgotten over time what they allow/disallow for avocado.

 

 

>In general, Essy recommends minimizing tofu, avocados, and nuts.

 

Yes, all of them recommend RELATIVELY SMALL amounts of fat -- and

PLANT fat rather than animal.

 

>If you've heart disease, he's definitely against nuts and avocados.

 

Sure, and I'd really recommend no nuts and avocado to someone who has

active heart disease.

 

And for me? I don't have heart disease, although I've been reading

these books (that focus a lot on

heart disease) for > 20 years. No doubt it is a serious problem for

huge populations, but it is NOT

a problem for me. I have very low cholesterol and very-low-normal

BP. (I actually have not had my

cholesterol measured in many years, but when I have had it measured,

I have always met Pitikin's

guideline of max cholesterol of 100+your age.)

 

For many people that is a huge consideration -- I'm sure that many

people on this list have plenty of

arterial plaque to reverse. But I'm also very aware that NOT

EVERYONE needs to, since I'm among

those who do not need to. And, much as I'm all for " public health "

and education, I also get a bit

bored with the heart disease topic -- it's simply not my issue.

 

For me, limiting higher-fat plants is a temporary thing while I lose

some pounds.

I do not think that avocados or nuts or seeds are generally negative

for health. I also love coconut

milk. I am also intentionally eating flaxseed every day (even while

losing weight).

 

Finally, it's all personal choice. I don't choose ONLY what I think

is healthiest, and believe

that most people do not. I don't. And I could certainly suggest

improvements to the diet

guidelines of Ornish, McDougall etc. We all pick our own levels of

what's acceptable

or where to draw the bar. (They could be greatly improved by

eliminating UNsoaked and

UNsprouted grains and seeds, and by intentionally including probiotic

foods and wild

foods. And requiring several varieties of mushrooms, esp the

" medicinal " ones might

also be good enough to make it part of the generalized plan.)

 

best,

Moria