Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hey Brian, I 100% endorse your comment about violent actions NOT being the way to go on the foie gras issue(or any other issue), not least because it alienates other potential supporters of the animal rights cause. " Kath Vegan " talks about violence being " effective " , but is that really true? Are there really any examples where acts of terrorism have achieved anything other than more violence? Doesn't " An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind " ?? And how does that help the animals? At AR2003 in LA a couple of weeks ago there were some really great speakers on the subject of how to get the animal rights message across EFFECTIVELY. The overwhelming consensus was that aggression is NOT an effective way of getting the results we want. Joanna sfBAVeg [sfBAVeg ] Monday, August 18, 2003 12:29 AM sfBAVeg [sfBAVeg] Digest Number 665 BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for more veggie info.... Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ (/) and More! http://www.bayareaveg.org/ BAV Message board (discussions and carpool posts) http://www.generationv.org/forum ------ There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. on means and ends... " kath vegan " <veganreveille 2. CA pro-hunting programs 8/29 Santa Rosa Fish & Game meeting " Tammy " <govegan 3. letter writing " Tammy " <govegan 4. Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " Brian Jensen " <live2cycle 5. Two August Promotions, Monday Gourmet Vegetarian Dinners in Palo Alto " Gerard T. Lum " <gerardtl 6. " Robo-ducks " & the Fish & Game Commission, Part 2 eric <afa 7. Re: Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " animal_avenger " <lorax 8. I need advice on Flax Seed Oil " Mary Mack " <msmarymack 9. RE: Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " Tammy " <govegan ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:37:58 -0500 " kath vegan " <veganreveille on means and ends... " If you don't want foie gras to be sold you can demonstrate in front of the store, you can write letters to the editor, you can do many things. But to destroy a historical building, to attack a family's home, to do this at night and to be proud of your actions - this is very difficult for me to understand. " -- Didier Jaubert (avid foie gras seller, Sonoma News, Aug 15, 2003) " [A]ny effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical. " --Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals, 1971) Foie gras producers are interested in profit, not dialogue. Lectures to everyone about which tactics are " acceptable " to help end this atrocity sound exactly like the words coming from those perpetrating it, and play right into their hands. These tactical blanket statements are meaningless. The effectiveness of a tactic depends upon the situation. I'm not downplaying the importance of public outreach on foie gras, as I have found the public to be incredibly supportive of this issue and outreach is vital in exposing it. However, when one of two foie gras farms in the entire country decides to open a restaurant as an avenue for more exposure and profit for their sickening business, no amount of public sympathy could have impeded on their ability to do this more than the actions posted. We need to be flexible and be adaptable to the situation if we are going to stop the holocaust that surrounds us. This has compelled me to type in the following passages from Rules for Radicals to share: " That perennial question, 'Does the end justify the means?' is meaningless as it stands; the real and only question regarding the ethics of means and ends is, and always has been, 'Does this _particular_ end justify this _particular_ means?'...To say that corrupt means corrupt the ends is to believe in the immaculate conception of ends and principles. The real arena is corrupt and bloody....he who fears corruption fears life. " The practical revolutionary will understand Goethe's 'conscience is the virtue of observers and not of agents of action'; in action, one does not always enjoy the luxury of a decision that is consistent both with one's individual conscience and with the good of mankind. The choice must always be for the latter. Action is for mass salvation and not for the individual's personal salvation. He who sacrifices the mass good for his personal conscience has a peculiar conception of 'personal salvation'; he doesn't care enough for people [or animals in this case] to be 'corrupted' for them.... " [T]he judgment of ethics of means is dependent upon the political position of those sitting in judgment. If you actively opposed the Nazi occupation and joined the underground Resistance, then you adopted the means of assassination, terror, property destruction, the bombing of tunnels and trains, kidnapping, and the willingness to sacrifice innocent hostages to the end of defeating the Nazis. Those who opposed the Nazi conquerors regarded the Resistance as a secret army of selfless, patriotic idealists, courageous beyond expectation and willing to sacrifice their lives to their moral convictions. To the occupation authorities however, these people were lawless terrorists, murderers, saboteurs, assassins, who believed that the end justified the means, and were utterly unethical according to the mystical rules of war. Any foreign occupation would so ethically judge it's opposition.... " The means-and-ends moralists, constantly obsessed with the ethics of the means used by the Have-Nots against the Haves, should search themselves as to their real political position. In fact, they are passive--but real--allies of the Haves. " _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:45:42 -0700 " Tammy " <govegan CA pro-hunting programs 8/29 Santa Rosa Fish & Game meeting California legislative update 8/16/03Hi all, Here is information (from Fund for Animals) about another Fish and Game Commission meeting on 8/29 to discuss the " Albert Taucher Preserving Hunting and Sport Fishing Opportunities Policy (named after a pro-hunting ex-Commissioner) which requires the Commission to " emphasize programs that ensure and enhance hunting and fishing opportunities. These activities shall be integrated into all Department programs. " Tammy ------------------------- CALIFORNIA FISH & GAME COMMISSION HEARINGS: Thursday, August 28, 10 am, Flamingo Resort Hotel / Conference Center, 2777 - 4th St, Santa Rosa. The Commission will adopt waterfowl hunting regulations. The Fish & Game Department has recommended to the Commission that they ban " robo-ducks, " mechanized decoys with twirling wings that attract birds to hunters resulting in much higher killing rates. Live decoys (birds tied down so they can't fly away) have been banned for years for biological and ethical reasons. " Robo-ducks " should be banned for the same reasons. Several Commissioners, particularly Commissioner Mike Flores (an avid archery hunter), are adamantly opposed to a ban. Friday, August 29, 8:30 am, City Council Chambers, Santa Rosa City Hall, 100 Santa Rosa Ave, Santa Rosa. The Commission will review their Albert Taucher Preserving Hunting and Sport Fishing Opportunities Policy (named after a pro-hunting ex-Commissioner) which requires the Commission to " emphasize programs that ensure and enhance hunting and fishing opportunities. These activities shall be integrated into all Department programs. " The Commission should be " emphasizing " and " integrating " wildlife conservation, not killing. Under this policy, the Commission supports pro-hunting bills such as AB 396 (opens up private land to hunters by paying landowners) and votes for more hunting at every opportunity. Write: California Fish & Game Commission, 1416 - 9th St, Sacramento, CA. 95814. Tell the Commissioners to ban " robo-ducks " and drop their Albert Taucher Policy. Please come to the hearings in Santa Rosa. THE FUND FOR ANIMALS INC. Fort Mason Center, San Francisco, California 94123 415/474-4020 fax: 415/474-5323 e-mail: vhandley National Office: 200 W. 57th St., New York, NY 10019 Cleveland Amory, Founder Virginia Handley, California Coordinator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Dear Animal-Avenger, You totally lost my vote. If your mission is to turn people off the cause of animal rights, congratulations, you are going the right way about it. Your attitude is responsible for ensuring that Animal Rights remains a minority issue. You will never gain mainstream support for the cause of animal rights with your war-mongering. In the meantime, please go find another soapbox to stand on. Joanna sfBAVeg [sfBAVeg ] Monday, August 18, 2003 12:29 AM sfBAVeg [sfBAVeg] Digest Number 665 BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for more veggie info.... Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ (/) and More! http://www.bayareaveg.org/ BAV Message board (discussions and carpool posts) http://www.generationv.org/forum ------ There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. on means and ends... " kath vegan " <veganreveille 2. CA pro-hunting programs 8/29 Santa Rosa Fish & Game meeting " Tammy " <govegan 3. letter writing " Tammy " <govegan 4. Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " Brian Jensen " <live2cycle 5. Two August Promotions, Monday Gourmet Vegetarian Dinners in Palo Alto " Gerard T. Lum " <gerardtl 6. " Robo-ducks " & the Fish & Game Commission, Part 2 eric <afa 7. Re: Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " animal_avenger " <lorax 8. I need advice on Flax Seed Oil " Mary Mack " <msmarymack 9. RE: Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras " Tammy " <govegan ______________________ ______________________ Message: 1 Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:37:58 -0500 " kath vegan " <veganreveille on means and ends... " If you don't want foie gras to be sold you can demonstrate in front of the store, you can write letters to the editor, you can do many things. But to destroy a historical building, to attack a family's home, to do this at night and to be proud of your actions - this is very difficult for me to understand. " -- Didier Jaubert (avid foie gras seller, Sonoma News, Aug 15, 2003) " [A]ny effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical. " --Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals, 1971) Foie gras producers are interested in profit, not dialogue. Lectures to everyone about which tactics are " acceptable " to help end this atrocity sound exactly like the words coming from those perpetrating it, and play right into their hands. These tactical blanket statements are meaningless. The effectiveness of a tactic depends upon the situation. I'm not downplaying the importance of public outreach on foie gras, as I have found the public to be incredibly supportive of this issue and outreach is vital in exposing it. However, when one of two foie gras farms in the entire country decides to open a restaurant as an avenue for more exposure and profit for their sickening business, no amount of public sympathy could have impeded on their ability to do this more than the actions posted. We need to be flexible and be adaptable to the situation if we are going to stop the holocaust that surrounds us. This has compelled me to type in the following passages from Rules for Radicals to share: " That perennial question, 'Does the end justify the means?' is meaningless as it stands; the real and only question regarding the ethics of means and ends is, and always has been, 'Does this _particular_ end justify this _particular_ means?'...To say that corrupt means corrupt the ends is to believe in the immaculate conception of ends and principles. The real arena is corrupt and bloody....he who fears corruption fears life. " The practical revolutionary will understand Goethe's 'conscience is the virtue of observers and not of agents of action'; in action, one does not always enjoy the luxury of a decision that is consistent both with one's individual conscience and with the good of mankind. The choice must always be for the latter. Action is for mass salvation and not for the individual's personal salvation. He who sacrifices the mass good for his personal conscience has a peculiar conception of 'personal salvation'; he doesn't care enough for people [or animals in this case] to be 'corrupted' for them.... " [T]he judgment of ethics of means is dependent upon the political position of those sitting in judgment. If you actively opposed the Nazi occupation and joined the underground Resistance, then you adopted the means of assassination, terror, property destruction, the bombing of tunnels and trains, kidnapping, and the willingness to sacrifice innocent hostages to the end of defeating the Nazis. Those who opposed the Nazi conquerors regarded the Resistance as a secret army of selfless, patriotic idealists, courageous beyond expectation and willing to sacrifice their lives to their moral convictions. To the occupation authorities however, these people were lawless terrorists, murderers, saboteurs, assassins, who believed that the end justified the means, and were utterly unethical according to the mystical rules of war. Any foreign occupation would so ethically judge it's opposition.... " The means-and-ends moralists, constantly obsessed with the ethics of the means used by the Have-Nots against the Haves, should search themselves as to their real political position. In fact, they are passive--but real--allies of the Haves. " _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ______________________ ______________________ Message: 2 Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:45:42 -0700 " Tammy " <govegan CA pro-hunting programs 8/29 Santa Rosa Fish & Game meeting California legislative update 8/16/03Hi all, Here is information (from Fund for Animals) about another Fish and Game Commission meeting on 8/29 to discuss the " Albert Taucher Preserving Hunting and Sport Fishing Opportunities Policy (named after a pro-hunting ex-Commissioner) which requires the Commission to " emphasize programs that ensure and enhance hunting and fishing opportunities. These activities shall be integrated into all Department programs. " Tammy ------------------------- CALIFORNIA FISH & GAME COMMISSION HEARINGS: Thursday, August 28, 10 am, Flamingo Resort Hotel / Conference Center, 2777 - 4th St, Santa Rosa. The Commission will adopt waterfowl hunting regulations. The Fish & Game Department has recommended to the Commission that they ban " robo-ducks, " mechanized decoys with twirling wings that attract birds to hunters resulting in much higher killing rates. Live decoys (birds tied down so they can't fly away) have been banned for years for biological and ethical reasons. " Robo-ducks " should be banned for the same reasons. Several Commissioners, particularly Commissioner Mike Flores (an avid archery hunter), are adamantly opposed to a ban. Friday, August 29, 8:30 am, City Council Chambers, Santa Rosa City Hall, 100 Santa Rosa Ave, Santa Rosa. The Commission will review their Albert Taucher Preserving Hunting and Sport Fishing Opportunities Policy (named after a pro-hunting ex-Commissioner) which requires the Commission to " emphasize programs that ensure and enhance hunting and fishing opportunities. These activities shall be integrated into all Department programs. " The Commission should be " emphasizing " and " integrating " wildlife conservation, not killing. Under this policy, the Commission supports pro-hunting bills such as AB 396 (opens up private land to hunters by paying landowners) and votes for more hunting at every opportunity. Write: California Fish & Game Commission, 1416 - 9th St, Sacramento, CA. 95814. Tell the Commissioners to ban " robo-ducks " and drop their Albert Taucher Policy. Please come to the hearings in Santa Rosa. THE FUND FOR ANIMALS INC. Fort Mason Center, San Francisco, California 94123 415/474-4020 fax: 415/474-5323 e-mail: vhandley National Office: 200 W. 57th St., New York, NY 10019 Cleveland Amory, Founder Virginia Handley, California Coordinator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 > I too object to such signature lines. I would like to know what > would happen if the rest of us put PRO-CHOICE signature lines on our > emails? I wonder too. In a just world, we would be safe to do so. In the real world, *we* would be considered to be using inflammatory slogans. On this list, I imagine that it all depends on PT ;=) whom I am sure has the whole situation neatly in hand. However, just once in my life on this list, at the very least, I will join you and add another ;=) Thanks! Best, Pat -- --PRO-CHOICE, AND PROUD!!!!! -- " Solidarity is running the same risks. " - Che Guevara ( " La solidarieta' significa correre gli stessi rischi. " ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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