Guest guest Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Sure, any effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being unethical. However, illegal and destructive means are also viewed as unethical by the ambivalent, and they're the people that really need to be convinced. There are many cases when meat eaters will actually support animal rights causes. It is quite likely that the atrocity of foie gras production is one of those causes where omnivores will be willing to help. But, they won't give that support if they feel the opposition is even more unethical than the cause. Numbers will more easily win this battle than weapons. --Brian - " kath vegan " <veganreveille Sunday, August 17, 2003 1:37 AM [sfBAVeg] on means and ends... <snip> > > " [A]ny effective means is automatically judged by the opposition as being > unethical. " > --Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals, 1971) <snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 > > animal_avenger [lorax] > Actually, it doesn't matter what you think, as people who are > willing to risk their safety and freedom probably don't care what > the SFBAVEG social club thinks about their actions. The only reason > I forwarded those alerts to this list was so that otherwise useless > people could make some phone calls to protest foie gras. Bryan, aka animal_avenger, I do not know you but it upsets me that you choose to verbally lash out at this community with such anger and disrespect just because folks disagree with you. Is that how you typically react when folks don't agree with you? I find it ironic that you are you so willing to express your opinions to us, but not so willing to listen to the contradictory opinions of others. You hold members of " the SFBAVEG social club " in such low opinion, yet you deign to post to our mailing list when it suits your purpose. I respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that we may not all agree. In those situations, I expect people to communicate without resorting to name calling (i.e. " otherwise useless people " ). That type of counter-productive behaviour is not acceptable and not welcome within our community. If you cannot tolerate and accept hearing opinions contrary to your own, perhaps this community and its resources are not appropriate for you. Although we have over 1200 registered members in the Bay Area Vegetarians community, veg folks are still an extremely small minority of the general population. The purpose of our community is to support and network with each other, not to create divisiveness within our own community, which seems to be the only purpose of your previous email. Are we not all on the same side -- for the animals? Each in our own way?? Bay Area Vegetarians (in the last 6 months) - generated hundreds of letters for the animals at Veg Fair and other letter writing parties - done educational outreach on factory farming at We the Planet, SF Pride Festival - sponsored educational talks by Dr. Michael Greger to the local community and SF City College, including a fundraiser for Dr. Greger - provides a supportive community for the local veg folks - enables many other vegetarian and animal rights groups to use our " SFBAVEG " mailing list to support their activities and outreach Sincerely, Tammy Bay Area Vegetarians founder, SFBAVEG List Owner, and an otherwise useless person Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 although i personally support direct action, your attitude sounds remarkably similar to " either you're with us, you're with the terrorists " . On 08/17/03, animal_avenger <lorax wrote: > Actually, it doesn't matter what you think, as people who are > willing to risk their safety and freedom probably don't care what > the SFBAVEG social club thinks about their actions. The only reason > I forwarded those alerts to this list was so that otherwise useless > people could make some phone calls to protest foie gras. > > Anyone who is " ambivalent " about foie gras is just as culpable as > those who produce it, completely devoid of morality, and pointless > to worry about " alienating. " > > If any of the sideline critics we have heard from would lift a > single finger to do ANYTHING to stop this horrible practice, I would > be shocked. People who criticize the tactics of others never have > anything productive to offer other than their bitter, holier-than- > though excuses. The animals don't need your excuses. > > I've been knocking on doors all summer talking to people about the > horrors of foie gras, tabling in downtown San Francisco, working > with activists in NY to succesfully get a bill introduced which will > ban the practice there, coordinating a letter drive to the Attorney > General here in California against the farm here, and I could go on. > > As someone actually working on this campaign, I can state that the > direct action done by others in no way hurts our efforts. In fact, > as consciousness about this issue increases, I would expect more > such actions to take place, as more and more people are becoming > horrified when they hear how foie gras is made. > > It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the negative feelings > generated in the handful of people who read the Sonoma News is > unacceptable when the overall result was the physical shutting down > of a restaurant that sells and promotes foie gras to wine country > tourists. > > Anyone who thinks otherwise should reevaluate if you actually care > about animals or are just here to pretend you care about something > and to meet members of the opposite sex. > > -b BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find > support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for more > veggie info.... > > Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ (/) and More! > > http://www.bayareaveg.org/ > > BAV Message board (discussions and carpool posts) > http://www.generationv.org/forum > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hello everyone, I must say that I was grateful to the person who provided phone numbers of the parties, involved in foie gras business. I was also grateful to those people for their action. I am personally involved only in leafleting, letter writing and calling activity, but i appreciate the courage of those who do risk their freedom and even lives to attract attention to the horrible reality of animal torture. I think that everyone does what he or she can, the diversity only helps. Lidia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Dear B, Just because some people do not share your opinion doesn't mean that it's okay for you to insult this entire group. You have no idea what the members of this group do or don't do to save animals. You do not know why the members of this group have joined this group and it's not okay for you to make judgements about why they belong to this group. To react the way you did by making rude comments about members of this group is very childish and you should do the right thing and apologize and then maybe we can all work together to save animals. Warren B wrote: " Actually, it doesn't matter what you think, as people who are willing to risk their safety and freedom probably don't care what the SFBAVEG social club thinks about their actions. The only reason I forwarded those alerts to this list was so that otherwise useless people could make some phone calls to protest foie gras. Anyone who is " ambivalent " about foie gras is just as culpable as those who produce it, completely devoid of morality, and pointless to worry about " alienating. " If any of the sideline critics we have heard from would lift a single finger to do ANYTHING to stop this horrible practice, I would be shocked. People who criticize the tactics of others never have anything productive to offer other than their bitter, holier-than- though excuses. The animals don't need your excuses. I've been knocking on doors all summer talking to people about the horrors of foie gras, tabling in downtown San Francisco, working with activists in NY to succesfully get a bill introduced which will ban the practice there, coordinating a letter drive to the Attorney General here in California against the farm here, and I could go on. As someone actually working on this campaign, I can state that the direct action done by others in no way hurts our efforts. In fact, as consciousness about this issue increases, I would expect more such actions to take place, as more and more people are becoming horrified when they hear how foie gras is made. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the negative feelings generated in the handful of people who read the Sonoma News is unacceptable when the overall result was the physical shutting down of a restaurant that sells and promotes foie gras to wine country tourists. Anyone who thinks otherwise should reevaluate if you actually care about animals or are just here to pretend you care about something and to meet members of the opposite sex. -b " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'd like to suggest that no one spend anymore time responding to 'b' for his/her remarks. His e-mail reveals larger, deeper issues than can be addressed on this list, and no one should take what he said personally. You've all made good points, tho'. Time to move on and discuss issues relevant to the list, don't you think? Marcy - <biguyskrsf <lorax; <sfBAVeg > Monday, August 18, 2003 7:42 PM Re: [sfBAVeg] Re: Yet Another Viewpoint on Stopping Foie Gras > Dear B, > > Just because some people do not share your opinion doesn't mean that it's > okay for you to insult this entire group. You have no idea what the members of > this group do or don't do to save animals. You do not know why the members of > this group have joined this group and it's not okay for you to make judgements > about why they belong to this group. > To react the way you did by making rude comments about members of this group > is very childish and you should do the right thing and apologize and then > maybe we can all work together to save animals. > > Warren > > B wrote: > > " Actually, it doesn't matter what you think, as people who are > willing to risk their safety and freedom probably don't care what > the SFBAVEG social club thinks about their actions. The only reason > I forwarded those alerts to this list was so that otherwise useless > people could make some phone calls to protest foie gras. > > Anyone who is " ambivalent " about foie gras is just as culpable as > those who produce it, completely devoid of morality, and pointless > to worry about " alienating. " > > If any of the sideline critics we have heard from would lift a > single finger to do ANYTHING to stop this horrible practice, I would > be shocked. People who criticize the tactics of others never have > anything productive to offer other than their bitter, holier-than- > though excuses. The animals don't need your excuses. > > I've been knocking on doors all summer talking to people about the > horrors of foie gras, tabling in downtown San Francisco, working > with activists in NY to succesfully get a bill introduced which will > ban the practice there, coordinating a letter drive to the Attorney > General here in California against the farm here, and I could go on. > > As someone actually working on this campaign, I can state that the > direct action done by others in no way hurts our efforts. In fact, > as consciousness about this issue increases, I would expect more > such actions to take place, as more and more people are becoming > horrified when they hear how foie gras is made. > > It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the negative feelings > generated in the handful of people who read the Sonoma News is > unacceptable when the overall result was the physical shutting down > of a restaurant that sells and promotes foie gras to wine country > tourists. > > Anyone who thinks otherwise should reevaluate if you actually care > about animals or are just here to pretend you care about something > and to meet members of the opposite sex. > > -b " > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2003 Report Share Posted August 19, 2003 Violent tactics can easily backfire, and then we'll have public opinion against us. I suppose the worse case scenario I've ever heard of is when animal rights activists started putting poison in Mars candy bars in the UK about 12 years ago. It put the movement back several years. Ghandi freed an entire nation with no violent tactics, why can't we learn from that? tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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