More on B12/raw veganism

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for asking why I don't concern myself with the B12 non-issue. There are

literally hundreds of reasons, but rather than go into explanations I think

it might be best to just paste some comments that were made on another raw food

forum recently by Robert, since he has such an incredible skill for

understanding and imparting the fundamental points.

 

Robert wrote:

" Since our nutrients that we use normally come in complete packages, and our

bodies require them in that form, it is the case that nutritional deficiencies

never occur alone. B12 is part of the B-vitamin complex, and is found wherever

those vitamins are found. Our bodies have low needs for b12. Our stomach

secretes Intrinsic Factor in the stomach which is required to join with b12 for

absorption purposes lower down in the intestines where it is normally

produced by bacteria in our guts. When we are not entirely healthy and our

stomachs secretive abilities are diminished we may have troubles creating enough

Intrinsic Factor(IF) for b12 absorption. Acids in the stomach can inhibit the

secretion of IF as well. Of course, IF is also dependent on other substances

produced within the body, and if these are lacking, then it may show up as a b12

problem as well.

 

The solution, of course, is to resolve the underlying habits that give rise to

the metabolism problems that predispose oneself to the symptoms supposedly

associated with b12 lack. To correctly diagnose oneself as b12 deficient, one

would have to test our systems for their abilities to properly digest, absorb,

and assimilate b12, and we would have to determine and eliminate as

possibilities all those other shortages and bodily conditions that predispose a

person

to not being able to use b12. Very few people in the country bother to do this,

yet they are quick to agree that they have b12 deficiencies if it so suits

them.

 

By and large, a person who goes onto a raw food diet will often experience many

difficult changes in their body, many of which are aggravated by the

continuance in such simple bad habits as overeating, eating frozen foods, eating

spices, miscombining foods, drinking stimulative substances such as coffee

and teas and alcohol from time to time, eating too many dried foods, bingeing,

and many others. On top of this, the body will have difficulties obtaining

enough nutrients at first from raw foods due to the low concentration of

nutrients in raw foods and the protective membranes the body has built up in

various locations of the body (such as in the intestines, stomach, blood

vessels) that were necessary when the person ate predominantly of over-rich and

concentrated cooked foods, with all their high levels of toxic matter. It takes

time for a body to reassert normalcy of function.

 

In going raw, many people have to acknowledge this compromised state of their

bodies by eating a transition diet that does not so drastically change the

conditions under which their body has adapted itself to get its needed nutrients

from the food it is given. So some people will still eat a bit of meat from

time to time, others will continue eating some cooked starches, others steamed

veggies. Over time, as these people slowly improve their overall health, and

as they persevere in steadily improving their diet, they will find that they can

free themselves from all poor eating habits, which includes the eating of

meat and dairy. It is the case that meat eaters are the main ones diagnosed as

having b12 " deficiencies " . B12 is needed in only extremely low doses by the

body, measured in less than micrograms, and its very easy for us to store

reserves that can last us for years.

 

There are so many things to consider besides b12 deficiency in determining the

source of someone's problems, some of which I already mentioned above, and

more of which include the amount of time one has been raw, how much one follows

other healthy habits in their life (such as getting adequate sleep,

sunshine, fresh air, water, etc), how many years one has eaten a cooked food

diet, the predominance of various types of foods in their former diet, what

other types of supplements one takes, what types of drugs one takes if they do,

the type of other ingredients that are in supplements containing b12, the

amount of exercise one gets, and many more. Sometimes it just takes a little

perseverance to allow a body to get over a certain stage of adjustment, and the

problems sort themselves out on their own.

 

As is always the case, it is sometimes best to proceed cautiously, while ever

slowly striving for improvement and this, as others suggested, may be the best

thing for you in terms of your diet. I would not be in any great rush to blame

your symptoms on a b12 deficiency when it has not yet been adequately shown

that other factors were not responsible for your problems. To do so would be to

lay blame where it is not due, which leads to misleading conclusions about

causes of symptoms. It is only wise to conclude that something is true (such as

b12 deficiency) when all other factors have been considered and eliminated

as causes.

 

There are innumerable substances that have not yet been isolated in foods due to

their low concentrations in foods, especially raw foods, and to the

difficulty in developing techniques to isolate them. There are no doubt many

substances in our foods that our bodies have very little need for, even less

need than for b12, and so these substances will undoubtedly occur in minute

quantities in our foods and in our selves. There have been no tests conducted to

determine the effects of so-called deficiencies of these substances and how the

levels of these unknown substance relate to the b12 and other nutrient

issues.

 

For this reason and the others addressed, plus others that I haven't discussed

here, it is wiser to say, if one has not properly addressed all the

considerations that would allow a true determination of b12 deficiency, that one

DOES NOT KNOW the true or complete reason for their symptoms, symptoms

which may or may not be consistent with true vit b12 deficiency (if that can be

determined), instead of just assuming they are correct in concluding it was

a b12 issue. "

 

Beyond this, Robert expounds extensively on the following thread about how B12

testing is, and most likely always will be, fatally flawed. It's a long

post, put your readin' glasses on.

http://p090.ezboard.com/fdepoproverafrm10.showMessage?topicID=450.topic

 

Nick, I hope the above information might help to answer your questions as well.

Let me know if it doesn't. I'm super busy right now trying to run one

business and get another one started up, so it may take me a couple days to get

back. By the way, Nick, I got the book today. Thank you so much! I can

hardly wait to go foraging in Seattle! Thanks for the CD too, I'm sure I'll

enjoy it.

 

Smiles,

Nora

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nora,

Thanks for the post. I think my friend's most significant problem with the diet

was in not having the community of friends that I did. I've already passed on

some of the earlier conversations, but it really is more difficult to learn how

to do all the right things - especially in an isolated place like this with so

many people doing destructive things to themselves. Besides, experts are only

experts at what they have experience with. Now I'm the only 100% raw foodist in

the county (that I know of). BTW I just ordered $100 worth of dehydrated stuff

from Victoria today so I can enjoy the fruits of someone elses efforts for a

change.

 

Nickolas Hein

Morgantown WV

-

Nora Lenz

RawSeattle

Monday, May 10, 2004 8:12 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] More on B12/raw veganism

 

 

<lotsa good stuff deleted>

 

Nick, I hope the above information might help to answer your questions as

well. Let me know if it doesn't. I'm super busy right now trying to run one

business and get another one started up, so it may take me a couple days to

get back. By the way, Nick, I got the book today. Thank you so much! I can

hardly wait to go foraging in Seattle! Thanks for the CD too, I'm sure I'll

enjoy it.

 

Smiles,

Nora