Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Well, my view on consuming rejuvalac for B12 is disapproving. It is not raw and neither is kombucha. Below is all the information you ever need to know about B12. Folic acid is also mentioned. I stopped reading about a quarter way through because i felt i knew enough and it was becoming quite tedious. You only need to read the beginning to get information regarding infants. I could summarize what i read but would rather summarize the whole thing. Perhaps you will have more patience than me. Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria. As far as I know, there is no other source for it. There is reputed to be B12 in the soil, by the presence in it of bacteria or the previous activity of the bacteria. Perhaps by ingesting sources of bacteria constantly we may be able to get the B12 that they may have in or on them. Sources such as pills of ferment, or injections of it, or eating fermented food, may give us more bacteria, but then of course they are also toxifying our bodies with the ferment. Ingesting soil is probably not a problem, even though it's inorganic--in Nature we would ingest a bit of soil anyway when eating, so it's probably just fine for setting people's minds at ease about B12. Some foods are claimed to be sources of B12. But what is considered to be B12 turns out to be B12 analogues instead, and are reputed to actually hamper the absorption by the body of true B12. There may be B12 ON foods, from the soil, or being produced by the bacteria on the food, but the general consensus is that there is no B12 actually IN foods themselves. If we've ever had human breast milk, we've gotten a dose of all the bacteria we need. Bacteria live in our colons and produce B12. They naturally proliferate. They can be decimated by antibiotics, but according to Ronald Cridland, M.D., they are never completely wiped out, some remain, and re-establish their populations. I think if one was never breast fed, it might be a good idea to get a dose of human breast milk at one point in a person's life, since we don't even know what we're not getting by never having been breast fed. In Nature there is no such thing as a non-breast fed baby, and until recent times even all humans were breast fed, if not by their natural mothers, then by another lactating woman (wet nurse). When we already have a colony of bacteria in our bodies, we are already producing B12, plenty of it, it is not an issue. It is NOT that we do not have enough B12 in our bodies! The problem is that people are not absorbing it! There are factors involved in B12 absorption by the body. The most prominent is IF-- the " intrinsic factor " . IF is produced by gastric parietal mucous membranes. The IF and the B12 produced in our guts must meet and join, in order for the B12 to be absorbed by the body! It makes no difference how much B12 we have in our bodies. If the body is not producing IF, we cannot absorb the B12! There are other factors in B12 absorption, such as the presence of cobalt in the body--B12 is called " cobalamin " , from the word " cobalt " , so cobalt is necessary for the successful production by the bacteria of B12. Folic acid may also need to be present. But of course, these are just some of the nutrients necessary for B12 production and absorption. If we are eating a diet of our natural foods of nothing but fresh raw fruits, veggies, nuts, and edible seeds, then we are getting all we need of minerals and nutrients. " Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia is a rare disorder in which the body does not absorb enough vitamin B12 from the digestive tract, resulting in an inadequate amount of red blood cells (RBCs) produced. Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia is more common in individuals of northern European descent. Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia results from a lack of intrinsic factor in gastric secretions (a substance needed to absorb vitamin B12 from the gastrointestinal tract). Vitamin B12 deficiency results. The Schilling test is performed to detect vitamin B12 absorption. In the Schilling test, vitamin B12 levels are measured in the urine after the ingestion of radioactive vitamin B12. With normal absorption, the ileum (portion of the small intestine) absorbs more vitamin B12 than the body needs and excretes the excess into the urine. With impaired absorption, however, little or no vitamin B12 is excreted into the urine. " The MMA test is a urine test, which one can purchase on-line, if one is concerned about their B12 level. So, as we can see, what is important with regard to B12 is the ABSORPTION of it by the body, in addition to its production by the bacteria in the intestine. Absorption is impaired in a weak, toxic body. Our bodies need to clean out, and heal, and repair themselves, in order for optimal functioning to be restored. That is what happens when we fast, properly. The body can only do the necessary very profound cleansing, healing, and repair, when it is given the circumstances to do so. And that means giving it TOTAL REST. Of course the body is inwardly not resting, it is working very hard. But with a true fast, water only, no activity, total rest, we are giving the body the circumstances to do what it is trying to do. We are getting out of the way, we stop imposing activity upon the body, when the body tells us by symptoms, and by a lack of real hunger, that it needs a total rest to be able to cleanse, heal, repair. The body during a long fast repairs the absorption of nutrients--each cell has a chance to cleanse and repair, so B12 absorption is corrected by the body. Our bodies know how to restore optimal function to themselves. No substance, no matter how highly touted, no matter how natural, nothing can heal the body. Only the body can heal itself. The body alone can heal and repair its functions, and all it asks of us is to get out of the way, and let it do its work. But IMO we should not impose a fast on the body--the body will let us know, by symptoms, and a lack of hunger, when it wants to fast, and that is when a fast is beneficial to the body. I have to once again caution people to only do a fast under the supervision of a competent fasting professional. I have only fasted on my own, but then I have fully informed myself about fasting, and I take full responsibility for my own health. Please read about fasting, in the books by Herbert Shelton, please get yourself fully informed. Some quotes about B12 from " Conscious Eating " by Gabriel Cousens: " The often heard health question raised by nonvegetarians and vegetarians alinke is whether vegeterians get enough B12. The answer is an important one because B12 deficiency can cause nerve denegeration and even death. " " The B12 question is not one that can be answered merely by a simple recounting of the results of one or two labaratory studies or theorerical discussions. In order to answer this question to my own satisfaction I had to look at my clinical experience and review alot of the clinical studies on loactvegetarians and vegans. " " Of those studies suggesting an apparent B12 deficiencies in vegans, none fulfilled the full scientific criteria for a legitimate B12 deficiency diagnosis. " " ...All of the scientifically complete studies on vegans showed no evidence of B12 deficiency. " " ....the serum B12 levels in vegetarians and in vegans in particular is lower than that of people of a flesh centered diet. Instead of thinking of these levels as inadequate, it seems more accurate to broaden the range of acceptable normals based primarily on serum levels of nonvegetarians to include averages for vegetarians, which do run lower. " " In general, I have begun to find that the physiological profiles for vegetarians, and particularly vegans, are different than those of nonvegetarians. For example, vegans will have lower cholesterols and triglycerides than flesh-eaters. If we used vegan physiology as the standard, more flesh-eaters would be considered to have high cholesterols rather than just high normal cholesterols. Broadening the range of normals for B12 levels to include healthy vegans gives us a much clearer framework from which to assess health. It also forces us to look at cultural biases. " " Live food vegetarians exhibit different baseline normals of nutrient levels compared with other dietary sub-groups, including cooked food vegetarians. " " The question that needs to be asked is: 'Why do healthy vegans routinely not suffer from B12 deficiency, despite fears, mythologies, and some 'scientific' prognostications to the contrary?' " " Vegetarians have been shown to have better absorption rates (of B12) than meat-eaters. Meat-eaters, who might ingest 10 micrograms of B12 per day, are estimated to absorb 16%, while vegans, who may be ingesting 1 microgram per day from their food, are estimated to absord up to 70%. " This is another example of how the adaptive physiology of the human organism changes as a function of the quality of the diet. " " ....research has found that there is actually more B12 produced by the bacteria in the small intestine of a vegetarian than in that of a meat-eater. " " The bacteria growing in water and found on vegetables that we eat are another way vegetarians get B12. One unusual study focues on a vegetarian community that grew their own food with fertilizing methods used in the Orient for thousands of years, namely, using fertilizer that has composted human feces mixed in. It was found that the foods had an ample quantity of B12 because of this. This point is that the B12 is not in the food, but on the food. It is produced by local bacteria, and those bacteria are commonly abundant in our environment and on our food. B12 intake can come from multiple sources. " " B12 is found more often in root vegetables because of their contact with the soil bacteria. This means that if we are too scrupulous in washing off out food we may actually by washing away part of our B12 intake. " " Research in the late '80s financed by the Maine Coast Sea Vegetables company at my suggestion has found that kelp, alaria (like wakambe), dulse and laver (like nori) all have high amounts of human-utilizable B12. Their sea vegetables were sent to an independant lab that tests for human-active B12. Alaria had 15.4 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Laver had 5.3 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Kelp had 3.4 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Dulse had 2.05 micrigrams per 100 grams. What this means is that one-half ounce of alaria, which is a large single portion, will supply ten times the daily amount needed. One-half ounce of dulse, which has the lowest amount of human-active B12 of the sea vegetables, will also meet daily requirements. " " There is some speculation that after 20 years on a vegan diet one might run into B12 deficiencies because of a very slow and gradual B12 depletion. Unfortunately, almost no research is available on vegans of more than 20 years who have never taken any B12 tablets or food supplements containing B12. " " It is only theoretical speculation as to whether they might, in fact, be B12 deficient. " " The healthiest and best prevention for vegans against B12 deficiency is to honor Mother Nature and our bodies with optimal health habits and a live-food diet in which no B-12 is destroyed by cooking. I was not able to find any studies of B12 levels in live-food vegans, but my observation of the few raw-food vegans who have been on such a diet for more than 20 years without any supplementation of B12 is that they are the healthiest group of people I have ever seen in our Western culture. " Here is an article which I feel is the best info on B12: THE VITAMIN B12 ISSUE by Dr Gina Shaw, D.S., M.A., AIYS (Dip. Irid.) The subject of Vitamin B12 is not new to most vegans, vegetarians or raw fooders. The supplement companies have many people running to their local health (drug) stores in an effort to make themselves deficiency-free, but is this a good idea? A number of issues will be raised in this article and I will attempt to piece together some information from many different and reliable (non-financially- oriented) sources. A vitamin B12 deficiency is a serious disorder, but it is never just a B12 deficiency because vitamin and mineral deficiencies never happen in isolation. Indications of a deficiency of vitamin B12, when they do reach a stage where they have shown up, can be quite severe. Fatigue, paleness, anorexia, mental confusion, delusions, paranoia, weight loss, etc. are just some indications that a person may have a B12-deficiency. In my opinion, ME is a B12-deficiency disorder. If you do think you may have a B12-deficiency, it would be wise for you to seek the advice of a health practitioner (such as myself) who is knowledgeable about B12-deficiencies, for immediate advice. This disorder can eventually lead to death if left unchecked. UK official recommendations have decreased in recent years, the body's needs having been previously over-estimated. Indeed, the Department of Health recognises that some people have lower than average requirements of B12. A whole lifetime's requirement of B12 add up to a 40 milligram speck of red crystals, about one-seventh the size of an average tablet of aspirin! Taking large doses of the vitamin by mouth is pointless because 3ug is the most that can be absorbed at any one time. Vitamin B12 is excreted in the bile and is effectively reabsorbed. This is known as enterohepatic circulation. The amount of B12 excreted in the bile can vary from 1 to 10ug (micrograms) a day. People on diets low in B12, including vegans and some vegetarians, may be obtaining more B12 from reabsorption than from dietary sources. Reabsorption is the reason it can take over 20 years for a deficiency disease to develop. In comparison, if B12 deficiency is due to a failure in absorption, it can take only three years for a deficiency disease to occur. Since vitamin B12 is recycled in a healthy body, in principle, internal B12 synthesis could fulfil our needs without any B12 provided in the diet, but if cobalt in our diet is lacking, the problem is not so much a lack of B12 synthesising intestinal flora, as a lack of cobalt (which again will need other factors for efficient absorption). Among the many controversies surrounding vitamin B12, there is the argument that, although intrinsic factor is produced in our stomachs and that our intestines are known to produce vitamin B12, the bacteria is produced too low down in the intestines and cannot be absorbed by our bodies. This argument is sadly still hanging around, however, according to Dr Vetrano, it was disproved by research over 20 years ago and is nothing more than an obsolete scientific theory. Indeed, in a 1999 version of `Human Anatomy and Physiology' by Marieb, it states quite clearly that we do indeed absorb vitamin B12 through our intestines. Many people say that the only foods which contain vitamin B12 are animal-derived foods. This also is untrue. No foods naturally contain vitamin B12 - neither animal or plant foods. Vitamin B12 is a microbe - a bacteria - it is produced by microorganisms. Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin that contains a trace element - cobalt - which gives this vitamin its chemical name - cobalamin - which is at the centre of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, although it is assimilated only in the form of vitamin B12. B12 synthesis is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine (in the ileum), which is the primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce vitamin B12. According to Dr Michael Klaper, vitamin B12 is present in the mouth and intestines. B12 must be combined with a mucoprotein enzyme named Intrinsic Factor, which is normally present in gastric secretions, to be properly assimilated. If the intrinsic factor is impaired or absent, B12 synthesis will not take place, no matter how much is present in the diet. B12 deficiency may be brought upon by antibiotics (also contained in milk), alcohol, smoking and stress (alcohol damages the liver, so drinkers need more B12, smoking (and all high temp cooked food is smoky) also raises B12 needs). Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex. The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies `showing vegans deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since 1959!!(1) Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing foods such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble is that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult to correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal flora problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a physical problem because they think they are not getting enough vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods properly because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out, B12 can be utilized and produced once again According to Marieb's `Human Anatomy and Physiology', vitamin B12 can be destroyed by highly alkaline and highly acid conditions. This assumes that the B12 in meat would be easily destroyed because the hydrochloric acid in our stomaches during the digestion of meat is highly acidic. This may explain why meat-eaters are just as likely to have a B12 deficiency as vegans - even though their diet contains vitamin B12. Also, for meat-eaters, there is antiobiotics contained in meat! Of course, many meat-eaters destroy their friendly bacteria in their intestines by constant putrefaction and the putrefactive bacteria naturally present in meat will give the body a hard time. Another side to the equation is that low serum B12 levels do not equate to a B12 deficiency necessarily. Just because there is a low level of B12 in the bloodstream, this does not mean that there is a deficiency in the body as a whole, it may well be being utilised by the living cells (such as the central nervous system). In any case, a person who takes supplements may well have `vitamin B12' floating in their bloodstream, but this does not mean it is usable to the human body as synthetic, inorganic vitamins are not. The illusionary benefits of supplement-taking result in the person's increased metabolism in order to expel these harmful substances as quickly as possible. This results in a stimulation of the body and the illusion of an improvement in health. The truth is that there is a very delicate balance among hormone secretions, vitamins, enzymes, minerals, etc. This is something that scientists know very little about. These substances do not work alone, but in fact require other factors for them to be effective, like fats, etc. We know very little about life within a cell. The use of supplements can disturb this delicate balance and diminish the efficiency of body functions. Health is reduced commensurate to the imbalance that occurs. Commercially, vitamin B12 tablets are made from bacteria and the bacteria is deeply fermented. A healthy body will usually expel fermented substances. The main problem with pill supplements is that they: 1) Do not contain the hundreds of other nutrients we may need to be healthy that raw foods provide, and 2) they contain artificial substances/contaminants that are detrimental to health. Synthetic vitamins and minerals are inorganic and are therefore unusable by the human body. In the manufacture of `food supplements', chemically pure substances must be used for the most part. If the scientists used naturally derived nutrients, their pills would be too large for us to swallow. Additionally, a chemical `carrier' is added to make the products acceptable to the palate of the consumer and to bring their product up to an acceptable standard. These chemical carriers, as with all chemicals, are toxic to the human organism. They result in stimulation of the body and an illusionary cure. According to Dr. John Potter PhD, of Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, Seattle, " Food's magic is based on thousands of complex interactions of dozens of different phytochemicals which are difficult to recreate in pills. While 190 solid studies prove that fruit and vegetables benefit, supplements have only a smattering of evidence " . Vitamins, minerals, hormones, etc. do not work in isolation, they work symbiotically. They work with other nutrients in order for their work to be carried out. When these highly complex substances are disturbed, their overall effectiveness can be reduced. However, too much of a nutrient is draining on our vital energy as the human (or non-human) organism may have to expel a nutrient overload. Also, it is doubtful whether, even if you do have a B12 deficiency, you have only a B12 deficiency. A healthier diet and living conditions, as well as a fast may be in order. According to Dr Douglas Graham, in his book `Nutrition and Athletic Performance', supplementation has proven to be an inadequate and incomplete method of supplying nutrients as scientists cannot match nature's refined balances. He says that since an estimated ninety per cent of all nutrients are as yet undiscovered, why would we want to start adding nutrients into our diet one at a time rather than eating whole foods? Most nutrients are known to interact symbiotically with at least eight other nutrients and considering this, the odds of healthfully supplying any nutrients in its necessary component package becomes `infinitesimally minute'. More to the point he adds, `there has never been a successful attempt to keep an animal or human healthy, or even alive, on a diet composed strictly of nutritional supplements'. Dan Reeter, at Bio-Systems Laboratories in Colorado is creating one of the world's most comprehensive computer facilities for soil biology testing. He says that, from his extensive tests, plants grown in organically-managed soil make significantly higher levels of usable vitamin B12. It has also been reported that vitamin B12 is present in wild fruits and wild and home-grown plant foods. The author contends that animal and dairy produce is a poor source of Vitamin B12 since the vitamin is contained in nutrient-deranged foodstuffs which will inevitably destroy the usability of the vitamin. Studies show that those following a typical animal-based diet require more vitamin B12 than those who do not. This is because the typical diet leads to digestive atrophy. Because B12 is peptide- bound in animal products and must be enzymatically cleaved from the peptide bonds to be absorbed, a weakened gastric acid and gastric enzyme secretions (due to a cooked food diet) causes an inability to efficiently extract vitamin B12 from external food. Nevertheless, raw food vegans who have a more powerful digestion actually get more B12 by reabsorption from the bile than they do from external food. Wolfe argues that the natural soil microbes and bacteria found on wild plant foods and unwashed garden plants are typically adequate to supply our B12 requirements. The natural microbes in the soil need to be duplicated and to colonise in our digestive tract, without fermentation or putrefaction. Another point worth considering is that vitamin B12 Recommended Daily Allowances (RDA's) are based upon the average cooked food (meat and two veg), smoking, drinking person. Commercial interests have indeed grossly exaggerated our needs for many nutrients. These studies tell us nothing of the requirements for a healthy vegetarian. It is very difficult to determine precise individual needs of any vitamin or nutrient, and an overload of any vitamin or other nutrient creates an unnecessary burden on our vital domain. Factors such as rate of metabolism, stress, etc. can determine our differing and often changing needs. Dr Victor Herbert reported in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1998, Volume 48) that only 0.00000035 ounces (1 microgram) of vitamin B12 is required per day. These minimum vitamin requirements may be inadequate to explain the needs of a healthy raw food vegan, for example, who may require less B12 due to an improved gastric ability and a high ability to recycle vitamin B12. (Cooking destroys microbes and a highly sterilised, cooked vegan diet may not provide the intestines with enough good quality flora). Absorption rates of B12 are higher in healthy individuals than in unhealthy individuals. Studies, based on healthy Indian vegetarian villagers, showed that none of them exhibited symptoms of B12 deficiency, despite levels of .3-.5 micrograms of B12. Dr Gabriel Cousens argues that vitamin B12 deficiency is typically caused by lack of absorption in the intestinal tract rather than a lack of this vitamin in the diet. Annie and Dr David Jubb argue that people have lived in such a sterile, antiseptic environment for so long that these necessary symbiotic organisms have been less than present in our diet. They argue that by ingesting soil-born organisms you can maintain an enormous reservoir of uncoded antibodies ready to transform specific pathogens, the way nature intended - by eating a little dirt! If a person is healthy and on a healthy vegan, high-percentage raw food diet and does not habitually over-eat, wrongly combine their foods and abuse their bodies generally, and utilises fasting on occasion, it is unlikely that they will develop B12 deficiency symptoms providing their intestinal flora was not previously deranged. Vitamin B12 deficiency is usually symptomatic of a larger problem i.e. poor intestinal flora, poor absorption and also lack of sunlight. Harvey Diamond argues that the entire nutrient issue has been made so confusing with contradictory information that it is no wonder that people are bewildered about where to obtain sufficient nutrients. Unfortunately, some people have been so totally misguided and scared that no amount of common-sense reasoning of even factual data can rescue them from the meat, dairy and petrochemical (synthetic food `supplement' suppliers) multi-million pound industries. The truth is that whatever nutrients the body needs will be contained in its natural foods (for human beings, raw plant foods). Mother Nature knows how to provide for her own. Why would it be that we are created in such a way as to make us a natural plant-eater and hey presto, there is no vitamin B12 provided for us by plants? If you can't get it from raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds or sprouts then WE DON'T NEED IT! Just because a wild fruit or organic foodstuff contains only a small amount, this does not mean it is deficient. It means that we only need a small amount! The pill pushers are quick to say that our soil is deficient, but according to Diamond and others, if a seed does not receive the elements it needs IT WILL NOT GROW (OR WILL GROW POORLY - author). Also, plants obtain nutrients from other sources in greater amounts: the sun, water and the air. Plants actually obtain only about 1% of nutrients from the soil. If you do develop a B12 deficiency, certain urgent dietary adjustments may need to be made, and there is a possibility that fasting is in order. In any case, on switching to a healthier diet, be it vegetarian, vegan or raw food (for optimum health), we should go back to nature as much as possible and pay little attention to germ phobics who advise us to scrub our vegetables and fruits. Buy organic and eat home-grown or wild foods and do not clean them too scrupulously! Just as nature intended!. Please note that it is not recommended for anyone to go on a fast of longer duration than 1½ days wihtout competent supervision, as prolonged fasts must be monitored by a qualified fasting supervisor. Dr Shaw is available for health and nutritional consultations, fasting supervision, courses in natural health, emotional healing and iris analysis (iridology). Her address is: True Health, c/o 8 Marston Rd, Clayhall, Essex IG5 OLZ, telephone 020 8351 0086/8550 0374. Email GinaShw@a... Visit her web site at http://vibrancy.homestead.com/pageone.html 1. `Fit for Life', Diamond, H. and M., 1987 2. `The Life Science Institute Course in Natural Health' - 1986 3. `Nutrition and Athletic Performance', Dr D. Graham, 1999 4. `Female Balance' article 2001 -K Perrero www.living-foods.com 5. Human Anatomy and Phyisology - Marieb - 1999 6. Correspondence with Dr Vetrano and family 2001 7. `The Sunfood Diet Success Story' by David Wolfe 8. B12 article by the Vegan Society 9 . B12 article by the Vegetarian Society 10. 1990 `Solstice Magazine' article [it is widely recognized that vitamin B12 in combination with folic acid is essential for your body to synthesize hemoglobin. A deficiency can result in a particular form of anemia called pernicious anemia. However, as we continually expand our knowledge of biochemistry, it is being recognized that these vitamins fill far more broad ranging requirements. It is doubtful that all their functions been identified, but it is reasonable to conclude that a deficiency could result in or contribute to a broad range of degenerative processes.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Thanks for the info! One thing in favor of having our own organic gardens, is the ability to eat fresh organic produce, complete with microbes, bacteria, and B12! Someday I'll have my own garden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 What do you mean, rejuvelac is not raw. Mine is. Could you explain, please. Forget the ads. You do not have to look at them. I never have. I click out or delete so fast I didn't even know there were ads let alone what they are ads for. - grouppastime RawSeattle Tuesday, February 24, 2004 7:08 PM [RawSeattle] B12 nonchalance Well, my view on consuming rejuvalac for B12 is disapproving. It is not raw and neither is kombucha. Below is all the information you ever need to know about B12. Folic acid is also mentioned. I stopped reading about a quarter way through because i felt i knew enough and it was becoming quite tedious. You only need to read the beginning to get information regarding infants. I could summarize what i read but would rather summarize the whole thing. Perhaps you will have more patience than me. Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria. As far as I know, there is no other source for it. There is reputed to be B12 in the soil, by the presence in it of bacteria or the previous activity of the bacteria. Perhaps by ingesting sources of bacteria constantly we may be able to get the B12 that they may have in or on them. Sources such as pills of ferment, or injections of it, or eating fermented food, may give us more bacteria, but then of course they are also toxifying our bodies with the ferment. Ingesting soil is probably not a problem, even though it's inorganic--in Nature we would ingest a bit of soil anyway when eating, so it's probably just fine for setting people's minds at ease about B12. Some foods are claimed to be sources of B12. But what is considered to be B12 turns out to be B12 analogues instead, and are reputed to actually hamper the absorption by the body of true B12. There may be B12 ON foods, from the soil, or being produced by the bacteria on the food, but the general consensus is that there is no B12 actually IN foods themselves. If we've ever had human breast milk, we've gotten a dose of all the bacteria we need. Bacteria live in our colons and produce B12. They naturally proliferate. They can be decimated by antibiotics, but according to Ronald Cridland, M.D., they are never completely wiped out, some remain, and re-establish their populations. I think if one was never breast fed, it might be a good idea to get a dose of human breast milk at one point in a person's life, since we don't even know what we're not getting by never having been breast fed. In Nature there is no such thing as a non-breast fed baby, and until recent times even all humans were breast fed, if not by their natural mothers, then by another lactating woman (wet nurse). When we already have a colony of bacteria in our bodies, we are already producing B12, plenty of it, it is not an issue. It is NOT that we do not have enough B12 in our bodies! The problem is that people are not absorbing it! There are factors involved in B12 absorption by the body. The most prominent is IF-- the " intrinsic factor " . IF is produced by gastric parietal mucous membranes. The IF and the B12 produced in our guts must meet and join, in order for the B12 to be absorbed by the body! It makes no difference how much B12 we have in our bodies. If the body is not producing IF, we cannot absorb the B12! There are other factors in B12 absorption, such as the presence of cobalt in the body--B12 is called " cobalamin " , from the word " cobalt " , so cobalt is necessary for the successful production by the bacteria of B12. Folic acid may also need to be present. But of course, these are just some of the nutrients necessary for B12 production and absorption. If we are eating a diet of our natural foods of nothing but fresh raw fruits, veggies, nuts, and edible seeds, then we are getting all we need of minerals and nutrients. " Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia is a rare disorder in which the body does not absorb enough vitamin B12 from the digestive tract, resulting in an inadequate amount of red blood cells (RBCs) produced. Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia is more common in individuals of northern European descent. Megaloblastic (pernicious) anemia results from a lack of intrinsic factor in gastric secretions (a substance needed to absorb vitamin B12 from the gastrointestinal tract). Vitamin B12 deficiency results. The Schilling test is performed to detect vitamin B12 absorption. In the Schilling test, vitamin B12 levels are measured in the urine after the ingestion of radioactive vitamin B12. With normal absorption, the ileum (portion of the small intestine) absorbs more vitamin B12 than the body needs and excretes the excess into the urine. With impaired absorption, however, little or no vitamin B12 is excreted into the urine. " The MMA test is a urine test, which one can purchase on-line, if one is concerned about their B12 level. So, as we can see, what is important with regard to B12 is the ABSORPTION of it by the body, in addition to its production by the bacteria in the intestine. Absorption is impaired in a weak, toxic body. Our bodies need to clean out, and heal, and repair themselves, in order for optimal functioning to be restored. That is what happens when we fast, properly. The body can only do the necessary very profound cleansing, healing, and repair, when it is given the circumstances to do so. And that means giving it TOTAL REST. Of course the body is inwardly not resting, it is working very hard. But with a true fast, water only, no activity, total rest, we are giving the body the circumstances to do what it is trying to do. We are getting out of the way, we stop imposing activity upon the body, when the body tells us by symptoms, and by a lack of real hunger, that it needs a total rest to be able to cleanse, heal, repair. The body during a long fast repairs the absorption of nutrients--each cell has a chance to cleanse and repair, so B12 absorption is corrected by the body. Our bodies know how to restore optimal function to themselves. No substance, no matter how highly touted, no matter how natural, nothing can heal the body. Only the body can heal itself. The body alone can heal and repair its functions, and all it asks of us is to get out of the way, and let it do its work. But IMO we should not impose a fast on the body--the body will let us know, by symptoms, and a lack of hunger, when it wants to fast, and that is when a fast is beneficial to the body. I have to once again caution people to only do a fast under the supervision of a competent fasting professional. I have only fasted on my own, but then I have fully informed myself about fasting, and I take full responsibility for my own health. Please read about fasting, in the books by Herbert Shelton, please get yourself fully informed. Some quotes about B12 from " Conscious Eating " by Gabriel Cousens: " The often heard health question raised by nonvegetarians and vegetarians alinke is whether vegeterians get enough B12. The answer is an important one because B12 deficiency can cause nerve denegeration and even death. " " The B12 question is not one that can be answered merely by a simple recounting of the results of one or two labaratory studies or theorerical discussions. In order to answer this question to my own satisfaction I had to look at my clinical experience and review alot of the clinical studies on loactvegetarians and vegans. " " Of those studies suggesting an apparent B12 deficiencies in vegans, none fulfilled the full scientific criteria for a legitimate B12 deficiency diagnosis. " " ...All of the scientifically complete studies on vegans showed no evidence of B12 deficiency. " " ....the serum B12 levels in vegetarians and in vegans in particular is lower than that of people of a flesh centered diet. Instead of thinking of these levels as inadequate, it seems more accurate to broaden the range of acceptable normals based primarily on serum levels of nonvegetarians to include averages for vegetarians, which do run lower. " " In general, I have begun to find that the physiological profiles for vegetarians, and particularly vegans, are different than those of nonvegetarians. For example, vegans will have lower cholesterols and triglycerides than flesh-eaters. If we used vegan physiology as the standard, more flesh-eaters would be considered to have high cholesterols rather than just high normal cholesterols. Broadening the range of normals for B12 levels to include healthy vegans gives us a much clearer framework from which to assess health. It also forces us to look at cultural biases. " " Live food vegetarians exhibit different baseline normals of nutrient levels compared with other dietary sub-groups, including cooked food vegetarians. " " The question that needs to be asked is: 'Why do healthy vegans routinely not suffer from B12 deficiency, despite fears, mythologies, and some 'scientific' prognostications to the contrary?' " " Vegetarians have been shown to have better absorption rates (of B12) than meat-eaters. Meat-eaters, who might ingest 10 micrograms of B12 per day, are estimated to absorb 16%, while vegans, who may be ingesting 1 microgram per day from their food, are estimated to absord up to 70%. " This is another example of how the adaptive physiology of the human organism changes as a function of the quality of the diet. " " ....research has found that there is actually more B12 produced by the bacteria in the small intestine of a vegetarian than in that of a meat-eater. " " The bacteria growing in water and found on vegetables that we eat are another way vegetarians get B12. One unusual study focues on a vegetarian community that grew their own food with fertilizing methods used in the Orient for thousands of years, namely, using fertilizer that has composted human feces mixed in. It was found that the foods had an ample quantity of B12 because of this. This point is that the B12 is not in the food, but on the food. It is produced by local bacteria, and those bacteria are commonly abundant in our environment and on our food. B12 intake can come from multiple sources. " " B12 is found more often in root vegetables because of their contact with the soil bacteria. This means that if we are too scrupulous in washing off out food we may actually by washing away part of our B12 intake. " " Research in the late '80s financed by the Maine Coast Sea Vegetables company at my suggestion has found that kelp, alaria (like wakambe), dulse and laver (like nori) all have high amounts of human-utilizable B12. Their sea vegetables were sent to an independant lab that tests for human-active B12. Alaria had 15.4 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Laver had 5.3 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Kelp had 3.4 micrograms of B12 per 100 grams. Dulse had 2.05 micrigrams per 100 grams. What this means is that one-half ounce of alaria, which is a large single portion, will supply ten times the daily amount needed. One-half ounce of dulse, which has the lowest amount of human-active B12 of the sea vegetables, will also meet daily requirements. " " There is some speculation that after 20 years on a vegan diet one might run into B12 deficiencies because of a very slow and gradual B12 depletion. Unfortunately, almost no research is available on vegans of more than 20 years who have never taken any B12 tablets or food supplements containing B12. " " It is only theoretical speculation as to whether they might, in fact, be B12 deficient. " " The healthiest and best prevention for vegans against B12 deficiency is to honor Mother Nature and our bodies with optimal health habits and a live-food diet in which no B-12 is destroyed by cooking. I was not able to find any studies of B12 levels in live-food vegans, but my observation of the few raw-food vegans who have been on such a diet for more than 20 years without any supplementation of B12 is that they are the healthiest group of people I have ever seen in our Western culture. " Here is an article which I feel is the best info on B12: THE VITAMIN B12 ISSUE by Dr Gina Shaw, D.S., M.A., AIYS (Dip. Irid.) The subject of Vitamin B12 is not new to most vegans, vegetarians or raw fooders. The supplement companies have many people running to their local health (drug) stores in an effort to make themselves deficiency-free, but is this a good idea? A number of issues will be raised in this article and I will attempt to piece together some information from many different and reliable (non-financially- oriented) sources. A vitamin B12 deficiency is a serious disorder, but it is never just a B12 deficiency because vitamin and mineral deficiencies never happen in isolation. Indications of a deficiency of vitamin B12, when they do reach a stage where they have shown up, can be quite severe. Fatigue, paleness, anorexia, mental confusion, delusions, paranoia, weight loss, etc. are just some indications that a person may have a B12-deficiency. In my opinion, ME is a B12-deficiency disorder. If you do think you may have a B12-deficiency, it would be wise for you to seek the advice of a health practitioner (such as myself) who is knowledgeable about B12-deficiencies, for immediate advice. This disorder can eventually lead to death if left unchecked. UK official recommendations have decreased in recent years, the body's needs having been previously over-estimated. Indeed, the Department of Health recognises that some people have lower than average requirements of B12. A whole lifetime's requirement of B12 add up to a 40 milligram speck of red crystals, about one-seventh the size of an average tablet of aspirin! Taking large doses of the vitamin by mouth is pointless because 3ug is the most that can be absorbed at any one time. Vitamin B12 is excreted in the bile and is effectively reabsorbed. This is known as enterohepatic circulation. The amount of B12 excreted in the bile can vary from 1 to 10ug (micrograms) a day. People on diets low in B12, including vegans and some vegetarians, may be obtaining more B12 from reabsorption than from dietary sources. Reabsorption is the reason it can take over 20 years for a deficiency disease to develop. In comparison, if B12 deficiency is due to a failure in absorption, it can take only three years for a deficiency disease to occur. Since vitamin B12 is recycled in a healthy body, in principle, internal B12 synthesis could fulfil our needs without any B12 provided in the diet, but if cobalt in our diet is lacking, the problem is not so much a lack of B12 synthesising intestinal flora, as a lack of cobalt (which again will need other factors for efficient absorption). Among the many controversies surrounding vitamin B12, there is the argument that, although intrinsic factor is produced in our stomachs and that our intestines are known to produce vitamin B12, the bacteria is produced too low down in the intestines and cannot be absorbed by our bodies. This argument is sadly still hanging around, however, according to Dr Vetrano, it was disproved by research over 20 years ago and is nothing more than an obsolete scientific theory. Indeed, in a 1999 version of `Human Anatomy and Physiology' by Marieb, it states quite clearly that we do indeed absorb vitamin B12 through our intestines. Many people say that the only foods which contain vitamin B12 are animal-derived foods. This also is untrue. No foods naturally contain vitamin B12 - neither animal or plant foods. Vitamin B12 is a microbe - a bacteria - it is produced by microorganisms. Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin that contains a trace element - cobalt - which gives this vitamin its chemical name - cobalamin - which is at the centre of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, although it is assimilated only in the form of vitamin B12. B12 synthesis is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine (in the ileum), which is the primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce vitamin B12. According to Dr Michael Klaper, vitamin B12 is present in the mouth and intestines. B12 must be combined with a mucoprotein enzyme named Intrinsic Factor, which is normally present in gastric secretions, to be properly assimilated. If the intrinsic factor is impaired or absent, B12 synthesis will not take place, no matter how much is present in the diet. B12 deficiency may be brought upon by antibiotics (also contained in milk), alcohol, smoking and stress (alcohol damages the liver, so drinkers need more B12, smoking (and all high temp cooked food is smoky) also raises B12 needs). Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex. The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies `showing vegans deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since 1959!!(1) Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing foods such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble is that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult to correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal flora problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a physical problem because they think they are not getting enough vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods properly because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out, B12 can be utilized and produced once again According to Marieb's `Human Anatomy and Physiology', vitamin B12 can be destroyed by highly alkaline and highly acid conditions. This assumes that the B12 in meat would be easily destroyed because the hydrochloric acid in our stomaches during the digestion of meat is highly acidic. This may explain why meat-eaters are just as likely to have a B12 deficiency as vegans - even though their diet contains vitamin B12. Also, for meat-eaters, there is antiobiotics contained in meat! Of course, many meat-eaters destroy their friendly bacteria in their intestines by constant putrefaction and the putrefactive bacteria naturally present in meat will give the body a hard time. Another side to the equation is that low serum B12 levels do not equate to a B12 deficiency necessarily. Just because there is a low level of B12 in the bloodstream, this does not mean that there is a deficiency in the body as a whole, it may well be being utilised by the living cells (such as the central nervous system). In any case, a person who takes supplements may well have `vitamin B12' floating in their bloodstream, but this does not mean it is usable to the human body as synthetic, inorganic vitamins are not. The illusionary benefits of supplement-taking result in the person's increased metabolism in order to expel these harmful substances as quickly as possible. This results in a stimulation of the body and the illusion of an improvement in health. The truth is that there is a very delicate balance among hormone secretions, vitamins, enzymes, minerals, etc. This is something that scientists know very little about. These substances do not work alone, but in fact require other factors for them to be effective, like fats, etc. We know very little about life within a cell. The use of supplements can disturb this delicate balance and diminish the efficiency of body functions. Health is reduced commensurate to the imbalance that occurs. Commercially, vitamin B12 tablets are made from bacteria and the bacteria is deeply fermented. A healthy body will usually expel fermented substances. The main problem with pill supplements is that they: 1) Do not contain the hundreds of other nutrients we may need to be healthy that raw foods provide, and 2) they contain artificial substances/contaminants that are detrimental to health. Synthetic vitamins and minerals are inorganic and are therefore unusable by the human body. In the manufacture of `food supplements', chemically pure substances must be used for the most part. If the scientists used naturally derived nutrients, their pills would be too large for us to swallow. Additionally, a chemical `carrier' is added to make the products acceptable to the palate of the consumer and to bring their product up to an acceptable standard. These chemical carriers, as with all chemicals, are toxic to the human organism. They result in stimulation of the body and an illusionary cure. According to Dr. John Potter PhD, of Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, Seattle, " Food's magic is based on thousands of complex interactions of dozens of different phytochemicals which are difficult to recreate in pills. While 190 solid studies prove that fruit and vegetables benefit, supplements have only a smattering of evidence " . Vitamins, minerals, hormones, etc. do not work in isolation, they work symbiotically. They work with other nutrients in order for their work to be carried out. When these highly complex substances are disturbed, their overall effectiveness can be reduced. However, too much of a nutrient is draining on our vital energy as the human (or non-human) organism may have to expel a nutrient overload. Also, it is doubtful whether, even if you do have a B12 deficiency, you have only a B12 deficiency. A healthier diet and living conditions, as well as a fast may be in order. According to Dr Douglas Graham, in his book `Nutrition and Athletic Performance', supplementation has proven to be an inadequate and incomplete method of supplying nutrients as scientists cannot match nature's refined balances. He says that since an estimated ninety per cent of all nutrients are as yet undiscovered, why would we want to start adding nutrients into our diet one at a time rather than eating whole foods? Most nutrients are known to interact symbiotically with at least eight other nutrients and considering this, the odds of healthfully supplying any nutrients in its necessary component package becomes `infinitesimally minute'. More to the point he adds, `there has never been a successful attempt to keep an animal or human healthy, or even alive, on a diet composed strictly of nutritional supplements'. Dan Reeter, at Bio-Systems Laboratories in Colorado is creating one of the world's most comprehensive computer facilities for soil biology testing. He says that, from his extensive tests, plants grown in organically-managed soil make significantly higher levels of usable vitamin B12. It has also been reported that vitamin B12 is present in wild fruits and wild and home-grown plant foods. The author contends that animal and dairy produce is a poor source of Vitamin B12 since the vitamin is contained in nutrient-deranged foodstuffs which will inevitably destroy the usability of the vitamin. Studies show that those following a typical animal-based diet require more vitamin B12 than those who do not. This is because the typical diet leads to digestive atrophy. Because B12 is peptide- bound in animal products and must be enzymatically cleaved from the peptide bonds to be absorbed, a weakened gastric acid and gastric enzyme secretions (due to a cooked food diet) causes an inability to efficiently extract vitamin B12 from external food. Nevertheless, raw food vegans who have a more powerful digestion actually get more B12 by reabsorption from the bile than they do from external food. Wolfe argues that the natural soil microbes and bacteria found on wild plant foods and unwashed garden plants are typically adequate to supply our B12 requirements. The natural microbes in the soil need to be duplicated and to colonise in our digestive tract, without fermentation or putrefaction. Another point worth considering is that vitamin B12 Recommended Daily Allowances (RDA's) are based upon the average cooked food (meat and two veg), smoking, drinking person. Commercial interests have indeed grossly exaggerated our needs for many nutrients. These studies tell us nothing of the requirements for a healthy vegetarian. It is very difficult to determine precise individual needs of any vitamin or nutrient, and an overload of any vitamin or other nutrient creates an unnecessary burden on our vital domain. Factors such as rate of metabolism, stress, etc. can determine our differing and often changing needs. Dr Victor Herbert reported in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1998, Volume 48) that only 0.00000035 ounces (1 microgram) of vitamin B12 is required per day. These minimum vitamin requirements may be inadequate to explain the needs of a healthy raw food vegan, for example, who may require less B12 due to an improved gastric ability and a high ability to recycle vitamin B12. (Cooking destroys microbes and a highly sterilised, cooked vegan diet may not provide the intestines with enough good quality flora). Absorption rates of B12 are higher in healthy individuals than in unhealthy individuals. Studies, based on healthy Indian vegetarian villagers, showed that none of them exhibited symptoms of B12 deficiency, despite levels of .3-.5 micrograms of B12. Dr Gabriel Cousens argues that vitamin B12 deficiency is typically caused by lack of absorption in the intestinal tract rather than a lack of this vitamin in the diet. Annie and Dr David Jubb argue that people have lived in such a sterile, antiseptic environment for so long that these necessary symbiotic organisms have been less than present in our diet. They argue that by ingesting soil-born organisms you can maintain an enormous reservoir of uncoded antibodies ready to transform specific pathogens, the way nature intended - by eating a little dirt! If a person is healthy and on a healthy vegan, high-percentage raw food diet and does not habitually over-eat, wrongly combine their foods and abuse their bodies generally, and utilises fasting on occasion, it is unlikely that they will develop B12 deficiency symptoms providing their intestinal flora was not previously deranged. Vitamin B12 deficiency is usually symptomatic of a larger problem i.e. poor intestinal flora, poor absorption and also lack of sunlight. Harvey Diamond argues that the entire nutrient issue has been made so confusing with contradictory information that it is no wonder that people are bewildered about where to obtain sufficient nutrients. Unfortunately, some people have been so totally misguided and scared that no amount of common-sense reasoning of even factual data can rescue them from the meat, dairy and petrochemical (synthetic food `supplement' suppliers) multi-million pound industries. The truth is that whatever nutrients the body needs will be contained in its natural foods (for human beings, raw plant foods). Mother Nature knows how to provide for her own. Why would it be that we are created in such a way as to make us a natural plant-eater and hey presto, there is no vitamin B12 provided for us by plants? If you can't get it from raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds or sprouts then WE DON'T NEED IT! Just because a wild fruit or organic foodstuff contains only a small amount, this does not mean it is deficient. It means that we only need a small amount! The pill pushers are quick to say that our soil is deficient, but according to Diamond and others, if a seed does not receive the elements it needs IT WILL NOT GROW (OR WILL GROW POORLY - author). Also, plants obtain nutrients from other sources in greater amounts: the sun, water and the air. Plants actually obtain only about 1% of nutrients from the soil. If you do develop a B12 deficiency, certain urgent dietary adjustments may need to be made, and there is a possibility that fasting is in order. In any case, on switching to a healthier diet, be it vegetarian, vegan or raw food (for optimum health), we should go back to nature as much as possible and pay little attention to germ phobics who advise us to scrub our vegetables and fruits. Buy organic and eat home-grown or wild foods and do not clean them too scrupulously! Just as nature intended!. Please note that it is not recommended for anyone to go on a fast of longer duration than 1½ days wihtout competent supervision, as prolonged fasts must be monitored by a qualified fasting supervisor. Dr Shaw is available for health and nutritional consultations, fasting supervision, courses in natural health, emotional healing and iris analysis (iridology). Her address is: True Health, c/o 8 Marston Rd, Clayhall, Essex IG5 OLZ, telephone 020 8351 0086/8550 0374. Email GinaShw@a... Visit her web site at http://vibrancy.homestead.com/pageone.html 1. `Fit for Life', Diamond, H. and M., 1987 2. `The Life Science Institute Course in Natural Health' - 1986 3. `Nutrition and Athletic Performance', Dr D. Graham, 1999 4. `Female Balance' article 2001 -K Perrero www.living-foods.com 5. Human Anatomy and Phyisology - Marieb - 1999 6. Correspondence with Dr Vetrano and family 2001 7. `The Sunfood Diet Success Story' by David Wolfe 8. B12 article by the Vegan Society 9 . B12 article by the Vegetarian Society 10. 1990 `Solstice Magazine' article [it is widely recognized that vitamin B12 in combination with folic acid is essential for your body to synthesize hemoglobin. A deficiency can result in a particular form of anemia called pernicious anemia. However, as we continually expand our knowledge of biochemistry, it is being recognized that these vitamins fill far more broad ranging requirements. It is doubtful that all their functions been identified, but it is reasonable to conclude that a deficiency could result in or contribute to a broad range of degenerative processes.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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